Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Not a very happy story, I'm afraid..

"What should I have thought/said instead? How do I keep from blurting out crap like that? "

You just say... "I agree. It was thoughtless of me at the time and I took responsibility and apologized." Period.

Just picture a big Stop sign before you say anything. Let her get whatever she needs to, off her chest.

"No argument about needing to learn to communicate. But right now I don't need to communicate, I need to shut the F up"

Communicating also includes listening not just talking. Non-verbal communication is just as important as verbal. Show her that you're listening to her and not just 'hearing' her. Repeat what she says back to her, like say "If I understand you correctly, you feel like this when I do this..." Very simple.

"None of my needs matter to her at all at this point, that is clear from her actions and from her words."

Again, this isn't about YOU. If you're going to listen and pay attention, make it about her. Imagine as if she was someone you just met. Usually when you're interested in someone new you let them do most of the talking so that you can learn more about them. That's what you need to do.

It's obvious she's trying especially with the dates. Let her decide how she wants things to go. Then when you're together, don't stress about what she's thinking. Just enjoy yourself.

Careful with that. You don't know, and unless you have something solid that says otherwise, I wouldn't assume anything. Couldn't she have just gone to a girlfriend's house? You never know, so don't assume the worst. I have struggled with this type of negative thinking all my life, and it's destructive. Frankly, my W has spent most of the last 18 months trying to do ANYTHING but come home. It wasn't about her doing what she wanted as much as it was avoiding me and our problems.



Again, careful. My W has done a lot of the same, but it's not so much because she has something to hide as it is her trying to protect her privacy. Eventually we may get to a point (I hope) where we start to break down those walls and rebuild some trust, but for now, I wouldn't assume you know why she's doing anything. It will eat you up and it could honestly be for a total different reason than you think.

I get where you are, because it sounds like you're describing me not that long ago, but you have got to take a hard look at what you're doing and saying. It all comes out as controlling. You agreed to have a date night, but you pressure your W continually about it....doesn't sound like something fun to me. I would stop putting so much structure around everything.

Instead of planning everything out, keep it lighthearted...."hey, I was going to try out this happy hour over at Joes tomorrow...you interested in joining me?" If yes, awesome...there's your date. If no, you go on and GAL. If she does join you, don't use that as your opportunity to talk R....that's why she doesn't want to go in the first place! Keep it light...have some fun. Remember how it was when you were dating. It is a slow race man...enjoy the moments, let her come along at her own pace.

Hello 9600. I haven't been up to date on all of your sitch but I read your earlier post with great interest and found that Bond and I had very different takeaways.

I thought you sounded very grounded, and like you're at a very compassionate and healthy place for your sitch. I was quite impressed with some of your conclusions, and as a woman I did not get the impression that you don't understand your wife (who may or may not be just like other women; we're all different).

It's very common for both the H's and the W's on these boards to find out that their WAS is holding onto anger for something from the past that we thought was not a big deal at the time and further was forgiven at the time. It's not a woman-thing. I learned in my first MC appointment that my H is still mad about the choice of entree at our wedding, for goodness sake. He hasn't brought it up in almost two decades yet in the first 15 minutes of counseling it comes out. You are not alone in dealing with this. Bond is correct that it matters to HER and that's the important thing. You may not realize, or have realized at the time, how very hurtful your being out late was, or how it might have been perceived by her as part of a trend or pattern that was even more hurtful so it became symbolic in her mind, larger than life.

On that issue, I would say this. Don't turn this into a tit-for-tat, and don't allow her to. How you are treated now may or may not have anything to do with what happened years ago, but the fact of the matter is how you two plan to move forward. You both agree that it was disrespectful then, and that it made her feel worried about you. You are sorry about that. Going forward, surely she will agree that house rules are needed that you're both willing to abide by so the other doesn't need to worry or lose sleep or feel blatantly disrespected. If she's going to live there, can you two agree on how you BOTH think it's reasonable to behave? It's about respecting each other going forward, to do better than the mistakes of the past.

The next thing that struck me in your post was her comment that she's reluctant to talk to you at all because of how you might react or turn it into an R talk. My take on that is she's trying to control you by deciding in advance when and how long you get to talk. You don't need to accept that; it's not healthy. Maybe you could suggest to her that you'd like to talk for 5 minutes, is now a good time or when would be. When the time comes, tell her you'd like to be able to feel like you can talk to her and vice versa, and her comment about how you'll react made you feel like there was a wall there. Suggest that you'll try harder to read her signals about whether she's available for a larger conversation, but that she's responsible too - and you want her to - communicate to you when it's not a good time to continue talking. At that time you try to agree on a time to pick it up again. Another thing to try that might help, because my R has a similar problem, is to have a regular, SHORT, time when you do something together - for us it's walk the dogs to Starbucks and back - when you can talk about the issues you need to talk about. You can work in some positives at that time too so it's not all beat-downs and guilt trips. I posed it to my H as, we have a lot of things we need to figure out, and we can just chip away at them in short regular talks so I don't feel like I'm ambushing you in the hallway because I need to talk about something. It's worked GREAT for us. On our walks I demonstrated that I could talk rationally about divorce without crying and getting hysterical. I listened to his ideas, and sought his feedback on things. Occasionally I'd ask something like, out of curiosity I asked what he hoped for his future, what was he hoping for out of doing this? I didn't get much of an answer, but I also was able to ask it sort of compassionately, not as an attack, and it was safely couched amid other less threatening topics. I used the time to compliment him on how he handled something. Et cetera. I think this would be good for you if you can schedule it.

Another point I wanted to make to you is don't ask questions that aren't going to get you anywhere. Isn't it obvious if she spent two hours doing fantasy football and has "no time" to go on weekly dates, that she doesn't want to go on weekly dates? Did you really need to ask her that? I'm not a fan of forced weekly dates, I think it's setting yourself up for a letdown if she's not enthusiastically on board with it. And it reinforces in her mind how much she doesn't want to be doing it. You might try more "stealth" dates that aren't dates, like helping with grocery shopping, going ziplining for the heck of it, I don't know, whatever you two do together. A walk or jog. And make them pleasant, find things to smile and laugh about.

On the subject of an affair, I was not surprised at Bond's response but mine was completely different. I completely agreed with you. You have great strength and that shows in your ability to see an affair not as an attack on your masculinity but as a symptom of the broken marriage that is your real tragedy. I happen to agree and I happen to have an H who may or may not be in an affair. I'm not looking. I'm just trying to fix what I learned I need to fix in myself, be patient, and be the better choice to...whatever. I'm not devastated that he might be with someone else, I'm devastated that I let my marriage get so bad and didn't know how to get it back on track.

I think you should follow her lead on counseling. If she wants to do it I think that's good. If she doesn't want to go on weekly dates and your C is pushing for that, I don't think you have the right C. By forcing it, it's just making it obvious how much she's not into it, making it seem more clear that you shouldn't be together. I love my counselor. She started out by listening hard to H, since he's the one who wants out, and validating his feelings, and helping me to understand his perspective. Finally, he felt heard...step 1. It was humbling for me, and it knocked me off my pedestal of righteous spouse, but that didn't hurt me and it helped us make progress. Fair warning, after over a year it's not looking like we're going to stay married. But I still think counseling worked wonders. So did this message board. You might benefit from a marriage workshop instead of counseling, or in addition to it, like Retrouvaille. That will help you each learn how to safely talk to each other and hear each other without jumping in with your own thoughts.

And a final thing I differed from Bond on, your final statement that this isn't the marriage you want, even if you love her to bits. I didn't see anger in that either. You won't accept poor treatment, but you are willing to hear what you did wrong and work to change. Sounds strong to me, assertive.

I recommend this often because it was eye opening and helpful to me (of course you must read DR/DB first, it's the foundation of everything here) - but your ineffective and fearful communication would be vastly improved by reading Family Communication by Sven Wahlroos. It was the second book my IC recommended to me, and it should be required reading for everyone in a relationship.

I'll read more of your sitch when I have time because you sound like you're making really good DB-type progress. Take care,

First, I agree with 007...he's good with the 2x4s and I think he's right on.



My W is the same way. We talked yesterday and she spent a fair amount of time talking about something that happened 15 years ago, before we were married. It's a deep deep wound that never really healed completely. Frankly, we have a lot of those on both sides. It doesn't magically go away. Listen to her, validate, apologize if you need to. Help her heal. The counseling alone is not going to do it all.

I spent a lot of time thinking "the past is the past, let's move forward" and it got me a lot of grief. My W was just not willing to do it. When I started listening to her, apologizing for past errors, working on understanding why I did and felt the things I did, then I started to see some positive responses. But again, it's a slow slow process and one blow up can set you back weeks or months.

I actually agree with Advina. However in terms of the anger, I know from a guy's point of view, how you feel. I felt the EXACT things you did. And even though I denied I was angry, it took several posters here to point it out to me. When I was able to really get rid of it (or as much as I could), I started seeing things differently.

Give up the date nights, it's pretty clear she doesn't want them and she's probably just perceiving it as pursuit/ pressure. Right after BD my wife and I were going to counseling and doing date night, but a few weeks in it was clear she didn't want it so we stopped. Did I want to stop? Of course not, I wanted to do whatever I could to stop the madness and heal the relationship ASAP. But this is not about what you or I want. It is about our W's getting the space they need to sort through their own internal issues. Do 180's, let her see nothing but a good, positive, strong, attractive you. Detach, but be available.



This is where detachment comes in. From Michele's 34 tips:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.

Again, you're applying pressure rather than giving her space.



Welcome to the turmoil! You need to set aside your expectations of what your wife should be doing, because she's in her own world right now with her own set of rules. You've got to quit pressuring her, that means NO expectations of ANYTHING from her. The longer you keep the pressure up, the more you push her away.

Believe me I know how hard this is because I'm going through it too, but it's your only chance of eventually getting to R.

just wanted to say that although maybe your w is "wanting to control talks" I don't think it matters.

If r talk is not going well or pushes her away (*she said it ruined her day/evening)" an to ME that's not a productive discussion if you want to get closer so I'd back way off on them.

Adniva's comment about the forced date makes sense. Plan something yourself so you dont' keep setting your w or you two up for failure and disappointment.

God, I feel pretty good about my m today but if my h TOLD me to PLAN a date every week it would put a weirdly unfun spin on it.

The tit for tat argument about when you stayed out late versus her late night out
when you admitted what you really said, went terribly.

You lost a wonderful opportunity to own the past and then LEAVE IT THERE (see Bond's post to you on how to answer it) b/c that's what you will both need to do to go forward.

Lose the scorecard and the grievance list from the past.

It's not what about the past hurts; it's about going "from this day forward."

Ever wonder why THOSE^^ words are in most wedding vows? I think I know.

Last but not least, to me, is the Fantasy Football League.

OH NOOoo, You made it about YOU. Just sounds really self centered.


It's a CLUE that she is GAL and you resented it while admitting she needs space.
?????

So when she gets a little space you tell her it's wrong and

imply that
YOU should be the center of her life

but you are NOT. At least not in a good way.


Maybe you could have shown some interest in her new hobby? Maybe you know something about football? Maybe you could watch and listen to her talk about her research?

Just my initial reaction to you resenting her private GAL time and then arguing with her about FFL, after she shared that with you,

was just the opposite of how I'd have reacted...or wanted my h to react.

I think Adnva's comments about a "planned date" are probably spot on.

If you were both into the marriage and wanting to repair things and open to it, you could start making time for the r and making dates. You would not need to remind her...let alone

forcing it upon her, which would not have made me think the forced 45 FORTY FIVE minute(!!!) R talk was worth it.

sorry.

But it's 2 steps forward one step back.

To me, whether there is an OM or not, is that becoming your best self means major detachment NOW.

Back WAY off and GAL.

You realize, We hammer the GAL stuff a lot b/c we believe and we KNOW it works.

Please listen to us. Meet new people. I cannot recall if MWD says that in the DR book

but to ME, GAL almost does not count if no one else is involved.

MEANING if it is all "solo" activities like lone bike rides, that is NOT GAL.

That's you getting alone time. Not the same thing. Meet some new people who don't know or care about your situation.

If your w asks you to go dancing, and I pray she does, dear God, DO IT.
(your movie example struck a chord in me. I didn't care for your reasoning when you said your w could watch a ROMANTIC comedy with her girlfriends so you would prefer she not spend YOUR time doing that and instead you two would see a movie neither of you wanted to see. To me that did smack of you not wanting to "give in" and unfortunately you failed to see the word ROMANTIC in the title of the movie types.

We want romance IN our marriages and if we don't have it INSIDE the way we talk or interact, then at least we can share a fantasy of it with our spouse at a movie...

Rent some romantic comedies (they're supposed to be funny so, if you like to laugh, that helps)

and see if you can casually ask her to watch one with you OR just let her see YOU watching it. It won't kill you. And it shows change.

**
For a new crazy activity to do together once a week,

Maybe YOU can suggest Arthur Murray ballroom dancing ...yes I'm serious. Don't scoff about getting out of your comfort zone. (Surely you are not in one now anyhow).

OR at least watch the TV shows "So You Think You Can Dance" or "Dancing with the Stars" which is bringing back ballroom dancing to more updated music. It's very erotic and romantic. So many couples meet there...or bond.

The best dates I've had with my were dancing ones, like our first 10...and weddings and other times. I just love it. OR go see a live comedian if you can rule out too much raunchiness. Brian Regan, Bonnie McFarlane, Maria Bamford, Jeff Dunham are all fairly clean to very clean...same for Dennis Miller. Laughing together is a turn on and it builds good memories.

Anyhow,
You need to be way WAY more mysterious and busy

but then when you are with her, which you will be some, (not as much as you want but that's how it is)

you must be interesting/interestED and appealing and warm and upbeat.

Like you KNOW you have a great future in your life...

remember those first Newbie Rules? I'll post them again if I can't find them here.

Good luck

this hit a nerve with me and not an angry one, just a BAM!!!

"apologize if you need to"....chances are great that if it still bothers her, you need to apologize. Don't act as if it's a surrender. It's a loving thing to do and it costs you nothing. Learning that fact was a huge growth step for me. Saying "I'm sorry" does NOT make me a bad person. It's kind of the opposite!

AND

It's not that we enjoy holding onto grudges. We do not.

It is the FEAR that it will happen again and again if we slide it under the rug or say "it's in the past, don't talk about it"...

By putting it out in the open and owning it, meaning APOLOGIZING -

like you "get" that you hurt her AND it matters to you--

(and for ME) hearing the sincerely expressed words

"I'm sorry I hurt you, that won't happen again, I promise"

go a LONG LONG way to healing

and being in the present.