Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Not a very happy story, I'm afraid..

Thanks -- I really do appreciate the advice.

Our counselor gave us a short version of the 5 love languages and asked us to each read it by our next session. I have read the web site and done the quiz there so I gave the book to W so she could read it first. Not sure when our next counseling session is even going to be because W is in the process of rearranging her schedule around her school and 2 jobs.



I was critical, controlling, defensive, did not take criticism well and my sarcasm came off as hurtful. One of the things we discussed in counseling on Tuesday was that we would argue, and I would think we'd resolved things, but W would apparently just agree for the sake of ending the argument. Then she would hold on to that resentment.

Here's a common situation we had. We'd decide to go out to a movie. She would want to see the latest romantic comedy, of course, and I would want to see the latest science fiction pic. We'd decide instead to see an action movie, because neither of us wanted to see the movie the other one wanted. I was OK with this; I mean, she had girlfriends that she could see the romantic comedies with. And I have guy friends that I could see the sci fi movies with. What I learned recently is that she was NOT fine with this; she wanted more give and take. She wanted to see the rom com with me, not her girlfriends. She never brought it up, we never really argued about it, but she felt like I controlled the whole situation. This wasn't an "all or nothing" thing either, certainly I've seen my fair share of chick flicks and she's seen her fair share of aliens.

That's a fairly trivial example of the dynamic we had. Of course I didn't *mean* to be controlling, but she says I was, and I can't argue with the way she felt/feels. So, I accept that I do have a problem with being overbearing in a conflict. I don't really know how to get better at something like that without being actually in a conflict and making the decision to back off a bit.

What have I done to change the neglectful image she has of me? Hmm.. Good question. I set up our office so that she has a table in there to do her scrapbooking. My idea was that we could work on our own hobbies together, in the same room. She hasn't touched the desk at all, even though she thought it was a good idea when I proposed it. I think we got the desk in April and started having problems in May, so maybe it was too little, too late.

I've also asked her to interrupt me, to tell me when she gets home if I'm off doing something. I drop what I'm doing if she comes into the room. I don't really know how else to demonstrate how important she is to me. Lately, I haven't even entered the man cave, I try to just be up and available when I know she'll be home. Doing dishes or laundry or something. Either that, or I follow the last resort technique of just not being home so she has a chance to wonder what I'm doing rather than seeing me do the same old thing.

As far as me not being fun to be with... I don't know, that's just the impression I get from her. I know I don't drink to the excesses that I used to. I don't think it's very cool to drive drunk anymore. She, on the other hand, has been acting like she just turned 21 recently, driving home trashed, etc.

I've never been a big dancer, and she loves to dance. We did dance lessons right when we first got married, but I felt uncomfortable the whole time, and we dropped them after our package ran out. I've offered to take that up again with her, but she doesn't have time right now and won't make time, given how she's feeling. We were in ballroom lessons. She likes the trashy club/bump and grind type dancing, too -- it's not like there's lessons for that that I could pursue on my own. I've thought about just going to some clubs, but I would have to go by myself and I'm not entirely comfortable with that. Would feel too much like hitting on other women.

So, here's what I've been doing.. I'm sort of mishmashing the last resort technique with some personal 180s to really appear to be doing something different.

• I am not on the couch, in the basement, in the office or garage when she gets home from work. I am either doing work around the house, out of the house or getting ready for bed. Trying to avoid the perception that I am "tuned out."
• I don't pursue at every opportunity, but I do try to ask how her day was, what she is doing, etc. I keep the conversation focused on her. It is somewhat trivial, but I know I need to practice listening (and asking how she *feels* about things rather than the nuts and bolts of what exactly happened during the day). Sometimes she talks, sometimes she doesn't. I try walk a middle ground between pursuit and cutting her off. I feel like cutting her off is part of what got us where we were.
• Other than the light conversation, I've been following the 37 rules pretty closely. When "the change" started happening a few months ago, I got more and more upset that she wasn't telling me where she was or what she was doing. I've dropped all that anxiety. I don't ask where she was, what she was doing. If she talks about it I'll just say, "hope you had a good time." This is new in the last 2-3 weeks (took a while to sink in, I'm a little thick that way sometimes).
• Been exercising a lot, riding my bicycle to work, and working on my appearance a bit. Lost 7 pounds so far.
• One of the hardest things for me has been to NOT be so goal-oriented. I have a propensity to just put my head down and work and work until I achieve something. I think this is a quality that works well for me in my professional life but hurts me in my social/married life. So I've cut down on what I want to "achieve" this year and I make time for relaxing, watching TV and catching up with friends. I don't know that this is something she would notice or not, but I do feel more relaxed and less driven.
• I've been reading a lot by Pema Chodron, and some other relationship books. No More Mr. Nice Guy, Married Man's Sex Life Primer, I Love You, But I'm Not In Love With You, and DR and DB. Trying to understand the dynamic that got me where I am. I've always been a big reader so this isn't much of a 180 and I haven't even told her that I'm reading these books, but they have been helpful to me for my outlook on things.

At our last counseling appointment, one of the things that she has specifically complained about is that I'm not "flirty" enough. I don't know what to do about that one. To me, you flirt with someone you don't know, ask them questions, tease them, send dirty texts, etc. All that stuff falls flat on my W right now. I try to be lighthearted when we're together, but I don't really get how you're supposed to flirt with someone you already know pretty well and has categorically denied having sex for the foreseeable future. To me flirting is getting to know the other person.

Also at our last counseling appointment, the counselor said that really the goal of our controlled separation was to get back together, and if we were both on the same page with that. I said my goal was to work on myself and the relationship. W said her goal was to work on herself. Just remembered that this morning. Bummer.

Journaling. Last night, I sent W a text around the time she's normally off work and asked if she'd be coming straight home. She responded with "yes" and did come straght home. She asked why I'd sent her the text, and I said I wanted to talk about some stuff the counselor had brought up the day before. The counselor is very concerned that W is so busy that she's not able to make any time to work on our relationship or make things better. Since W decided not to move out of the house, maybe W could cut down her work schedule so we could spend more time together?

W didn't really want to talk, she wanted to work on stuff for her school. So I didn't keep her long. I explained how much $$ we needed her to make to survive ($0), and how much would make us fairly comfortable. She needs to rearrange her work schedule around school anyway, and I told her I was just giving her this info so that she had all the facts when she went to change things around. She did explain that she didn't get the promotion she was hoping for at the restaurant job, she'd found out two days before and hadn't told me. She made it sound like she was thinking of quitting altogether. I just said that for now, we're still married, and I will still provide for her and help her get on her feet in her school and teaching career. She didn't really react. I saw her passing in the hallway later and we chitchatted a bit, I can't remember what it was about though. I ended up giving her a hug before bed. It was like hugging a statue.

I probably said more than I should have. The hug may have been too much. Not sure if I'm leaving the road back home paved or just being a doormat. Just now I broke down and sent her a text saying I wasn't sure if I said it last night, but I'm sorry she didn't get the promotion at work. I think she's damn good at what she does and I was hoping she'd get recognized. As much as I hate the restaurant gig, it's part of who she is. No response from her yet.

I also remembered that in counseling on Tuesday W said she still feels hopeless about the situation. This morning I wondered to myself why I would stay with someone who obviously doesn't care a bit for my feelings or this marriage or is even willing to respect the vows she took. What if I had been in a car accident and got hurt? Would she leave me? I thought about what I would do when/if she decides to move out and get a divorce. I'll probably get another cat, since she will take our 2 cats. We'll have to wait another year to put the house up for sale, I think. I want to stay hopeful, but realistic.

We'd agreed to date once a week during this "separation" time, depending on her school schedule. She's got a class tonight that ends at 7. Normally this would be a night we'd go out. But we didn't talk about it, I don't want to take that for granted, and I don't want to pursue. I don't really feel much like going to dinner or a movie or dancing or anything at the moment. I feel like curling up on the couch after work and watching Top Gear reruns. I feel like I haven't been patient enough. I really didn't start to let go until a couple of weeks ago.

Throw in selfish, insecure and impatient and you just described me not too long ago! The weird thing is, realizing I really had these issues was difficult. I knew I was insecure, so I started with that...dug into it, read about it, thought about it. When I thought I had a pretty good handle on it, I moved to the next thing, and then found another issue, and so on.

With regards to the controlling, this was one that I didn't get until later. My wife had even told me straight out she felt controlled. It wasn't until I talked to Mach1 about it that I saw it. Take it from me on this one, you definitely sound controlling in the way you are talking to your W.



That is you leading. Some of the things you are doing sound manipulating...maybe with good intention, but still.




I'm surprised you have this view given that you read "Married Man's Sex Life Primer." That thing was chock full of ideas of married flirting. It makes your W feel desired. Be fun, be playful. Of course, this is a little harder to do given where you're at, but you can still do it a little. Hell, I even did some of it after my W moved out...and we had fun with it.




I think that's awesome. While M may be your end goal, the fact that she wants to work on herself at least means she's willing to learn and grow. I'd love to her my W say that.

Mach1 suggested I read Co-Dependent No More as I was addressing my controlling behavior. You might consider picking that one up...definitely worth a read. So much of it hit home for me.

Also, as you think about these behaviors, try to figure out why you have them...where do they come from? It's deep, but those kind of questions really helped me.

After my wife dropped the bomb on me she agreed to counseling, but much like your wife, she just kept saying week after week that there was no hope for our future. She acknowledged I had made big 180's and that I had corrected every flaw she had previously complained about, but she just kept saying that she didn't "want to try". My wife went dark for a weekend before coming to me and telling me she couldn't go on like that, since then we've gotten along great, done things by ourselves and with the kids, and all in all are behaving like a proper married couple. But she's still moving out. Honestly it's perplexing to me, but clearly I have no choice but to let her go and work things out on her own. I have a feeling that your W is going to have to do the same, being in the same house isn't enough of a separation for her.



Like Michele says in DB, don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does. She's confused and hurting inside regardless of what she's showing on the outside. She IS conflicted about breaking her vows, hurting you, "giving up", but she's also fallen in love with the idea of a newer and better life without you. You're going to have to let her go to figure it out herself. Stick with the DB game plan!

Great points.. I'm all of those too. I know I've got a lot to work on. What I'm not sure about is how to work on it.


Yep, agreed.




This is great, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even realize how that might come off, especially with how threatened she's probably feeling. You're right, regardless of the intention, the effect is overall negative.




That was one of the first books I read. I haven't picked it up in a while, maybe I will go back and try and get some more ideas. Right now any time I mention anything even vaguely sexual, I can see W freeze up completely. I've made her laugh a few times, but it's very, very difficult. I tried the text message stuff but she just doesn't respond.




That is a good point. However, (and this is a little mind reading, I know), I don't see any evidence or actions on her part to support that. She works/studies herself to exhaustion. All I really see is her running away from her problems. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.


Just ordered that book for my kindle, I will be reading it tonight.

Thanks so much for your comments, you've given me a lot to think about.

I'm still having a hard time coming up with actions that I can do to help myself and this situation. I recognize a lot of problems, but for instance, I don't feel insecure all day every day. When I think about what's happening with W, yes. When we would fight or argue, then sure, I would retreat and get defensive. But I don't feel like I am that person in my normal day-to-day life. I don't argue with people at work. I'm not someone who gets angry with waitresses or anything.

So how do I address the aspects of myself that only come out during confrontation, when there is no confrontation without W? So far I've been doing this by just trying to think a lot, and to prepare myself for things that might happen and learn to control my feelings better. It might be better to engage an IC, though. I'm going to think on that.

This is all tough stuff, but our paths seem to mirror a bit, so I'll try to share what I can. You can also check out my thread in the Staying Solution Focused section and see how Mach1 helped me work thru some of my own issues. There is a lot of thinking involved. My W and I also did retrovaille, which helped me open up a lot and helped me think thru some things. Journaling here and getting input from folks also helps immensely.

You seem to read a lot, and it's easy to get overwhelmed with all this stuff and get confused by different advice (so give yourself some breaks!), but another book that helped me with my insecurity was "Learning to Trust." I had a serious problem with negative thoughts. If my W didn't answer my phone call, I immediately would think the worst possible thing. The longer it took for her to respond, the more panic'd I became, and the worse the ideas of what she was doing became. By the time she got home, I would be freaked out and she'd say "sorry, my battery died and I had a meeting til 6pm." A lot of times, I'd have attacked her before she could even explain....no wonder she wanted a D.

These days, I might text her a few times during the day, but I don't even bother asking when she'll be home most of the time. I do like to know who's responsible for dinner, but otherwise, I pretty much let her go.

My point is, it's a process, it's going to take some time...you're going to have to dig deep into these things to figure out where they come from and how to put them to rest. You'll probably have to forgive yourself and others along the way. But, you'll get there if you really want to. Hang in there!

9600, I do not have any enlightening advice to offer other than hang in there!
We share some similarities in our current dilemma, including timing of everything coming out, and I'm finding great stuff for myself to improve. So again, hang in there!

Hi 9600,

I've just been through your thread again (sorry I've not had the chance to visit for a while) and if you have a chance, Go through it again and start noticing all the times when you initiate contact, whether it be to offer help, to call or text her, to give her stuff, to offer to do stuff for her or together, anything that you initiate. The reason I ask you to do that is that it is something I noticed is consistent throughout your thread yet, at the beginning of your sitch your W had expressed that she started feeling comfortable around you only when you started to give her the space she needed.

I know it's difficult and that each sitch is different but IMO, you are still pursuing her too much and this might just drive her away from you. Give her space. If she wants to be with you or talk to you, you live in the same house, she'll find you. GAL. Don't make her your life right now. She doesn't really want to be anyone's life right now.

It also looks like you've got a good list of things to work on so that should be keeping you busy for a while. Give it time. Someone in an older post made the analogy that this was like trying to lure a squirrel to you by holding a nut in your hand. Every time you try to move towards the squirrel, it pulls back and it takes longer for it to trust you again and get closer. Stop moving towards her for a while and see what happens. If she makes the first move towards you, then you can chose to match her move but don't go crazy and scare her away again. Keep a comfortable distance. Match her. If she opens up, listen. If she wants to do something, decide if you want to do it as well. Don't be overly eager to say yes all the time and cancel plans just because she asks. Give her the space she desperately needs right now, and that doesn't mean to stop being cheerful and friendly around her. Just give her space. This is my opinion.

before I forget,

Do NOT tell your w you are reading those books, least of all Div Busting or Div Remedy. They are for you only.

Otherwise, your "changes" will look like tactics right out of a BOOK!!! They will not be credible.

The books even say "don't share this" and they say it for a reason. It'll probably backfire and it helps so rarely, if ever, we just don't give it to them.

It's key that you get this.

Do you?

<sigh> That ship has sailed. When we first started having problems I found the DB and DR books, and when they came in the mail, I showed them to W. She was not interested, we were very much not in touch with one another, and she said very little. I read them, but my situation seemed so different from some of what I read that a lot of it seemed to not apply. What I realize now is that I should have kept them a secret and detached earlier. Anyway, she knows I'm a reader and a fixer. I don't read the books around her and I usually keep them at work. It's possible that she'd put together that I'm working out techniques from the books, but more likely she just thinks I'm annoying and crazy at this point.

More to follow.