My advice is always for people to make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN, first (and we certainly are here), and simply say "(Wife's first name), I know all about you and ________, and it needs to stop, now. This is completely disrespectful to you and to our marriage. When you asked me for space to be alone, I gave it to you. I told you MONTHS ago that I would only fight for you if OM wasn't in the picture, and I now know you've been lying to me about it. Sounds like we both have some important decisions to make."
And leave it at that. Definitive, declarative, and yet leaves you a ton of wiggle room (because you're not saying ANYTHING you're going to do specifically, right now).
If she tries to lie, and say the whole "just friends" thing, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Please stop. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful." If she tries to say you're "controlling" (as in "You can't tell me who I can be friends with!"), simply agree with her and say "You're right, I can't. You're a grown woman, and I have no desire to control you. All I can do is tell YOU what MY boundaries are, and I won't be in your life as a husband or a friend as long as OM is in your life. That's just a matter of personal integrity with me."
And END THE CONVERSATION as quickly as possible. NO R TALK, NO DECEIT from her lips.
Thanks Starsky... The only caveats I have here are these:
She was, on a few occasions when I "snooped" and found an email to OM and the picture to the OM, EXTREMELY pissed off about my invasion of her privacy, screaming that if she can't have ANYTHING to herself, that she'd never be able to be with me.
I KNOW that she was unjustified in this position, as she had been deceitful and was hiding things that she shouldn't have ever done, but I'm just bringing up the fact that if she believes that I found this "information" that i'm confronting her with by snooping around, it may only strengthen her resolve in the decision to leave.
And as a matter of semantics, as I've not asked if she and OM were together since WAY before she moved to C.FL, she hasn't technically lied to me about their relationship. I never broached the subject in a way that I asked her for answers... only operated under the assumption and never asked for confirmation...
I think your advice has a TON of merit, and I'm very curious as to what Denver's thoughts on the subject are...
At this point, It's not a question of IF I'll be taking these steps... It's a question of WHEN. I want to be sure that I have the resolve to ask, hear what she has to say and get off the phone... Telling her "I need some time to think about this"... Then during our next conversation, when my head is clear again, laying out the boundaries and letting her know I won't be a part of her life as long as OM is...
I know I SHOULD have these conversations at the same time, I'm just frightened that I won't be able to properly control my emotions to say exactly what I want to say without breaking down...
I have absolutely no problem with Denver's script. I do think your wife requires a little more delicate touch, Alk, which is why I asked Denver to look in on your sitch to begin with. So long as his script ends with the "I may still be here, I may not" thing (most people BLOW it at this critical point, and say "I will always love you and will always be here for you," or some other deadline-less statement that creates NO urgency whatsoever for the wayward to end their affair), I'm fine with it.
If you ever do check out all my old threads, you will see I really did intersperse a lot of the "softer" stuff . . . it just wasn't at some of these crucial points, like the initial confrontation. I do think it's important to convey some of that stuff, though.
Okay. So we know a few places where maybe she feels that you let her down. And it seems that you agree.
I'm not sure that this stuff is the most pressing thing to talk about right now, but I will just say that IF you find yourself in a conversation with her about these things, you should listen to her and validate her feelings. Don't defend, explain, just validate... "W, you are absolutely right about this. I didn't not handle those situations well. I know that now, and I'm so very sorry. I can't change the past, but I can make sure not to repeat the mistakes of the past. That's all that I can say or do."
The good news here is we HAVE had these types of conversations, and they were AFTER I'd read through DR, so I was able to follow the "Listen, Validate, empathize" thing... although I may have slipped in an explanation here or there (mostly about how I'd had conversations with my sisters behind closed doors about their treatment of W, and that I regretted not having the conversations right there as they happened and out in the open)... So while I wasn't perfect, I was pretty darn good at listening and validating
Thanks Starsky... The only caveats I have here are these:
She was, on a few occasions when I "snooped" and found an email to OM and the picture to the OM, EXTREMELY pissed off about my invasion of her privacy, screaming that if she can't have ANYTHING to herself, that she'd never be able to be with me.
I KNOW that she was unjustified in this position, as she had been deceitful and was hiding things that she shouldn't have ever done, but I'm just bringing up the fact that if she believes that I found this "information" that i'm confronting her with by snooping around, it may only strengthen her resolve in the decision to leave.
Alkaline - Listen man, there is NO way around the fact that you are going to have to deal with your W getting pissed about some of what you are going to have to say and do here. If you read my threads, you will find that my W called me some of the worst names imaginable at some points... "selfish ****sucker" comes to mind once or twice LOL... of course my W has a sailor's mouth. But she was furious with me multiple times during the 19 months that we did this. Remember, you are not giving her exactly what she wants. Things are not going to go the way that she wants them to all of the time. Of course she's going to get pissed.
This was hard for me, but I eventually had to realize...
...she is NOT going to divorce you because of any of this. IF she divorces you, it is going to be because she is unhappy in life and does not believe that she can find that happiness with you. Not because you pissed her off by setting some boundaries for yourself.
Plus, I learned to actually take a positive to my W getting pissed at me... it demonstrated that she still cared. As long as you have that, you still have a chance.
Originally Posted By: AlkalineThoughts
I think your advice has a TON of merit, and I'm very curious as to what Denver's thoughts on the subject are...
My suggestion is above. We must have been typing at the same time. I don't think that Starsky and I, or your IC and I, are that far apart.
Originally Posted By: AlkalineThoughts
At this point, It's not a question of IF I'll be taking these steps... It's a question of WHEN. I want to be sure that I have the resolve to ask, hear what she has to say and get off the phone... Telling her "I need some time to think about this"... Then during our next conversation, when my head is clear again, laying out the boundaries and letting her know I won't be a part of her life as long as OM is...
I know I SHOULD have these conversations at the same time, I'm just frightened that I won't be able to properly control my emotions to say exactly what I want to say without breaking down...
Personally, I think that this should all be covered in one conversation. Let's call it the "shock and awe" strategy. LOL!
I believe that you can get yourself prepared for this and do it. But I do agree that you absolutely have to hold it together and NOT break down. You have to be strong in front of her, or on the phone with her, no matter what.
Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with you doing it via email. There were a couple of times that I did it that way... simply because my W would always interrupt me and set me off track with what I was trying to say. She'll probably call, but by then, you've said all that you have to say. You can sit there, listen to her, and then reply by telling her that you've said what you have to say and ask her to please respect it.
What do you think about a well written email starsky?
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
First, I do agree with Starsky that you should not divulge the source of your intel. Multiple reasons for that, but first and foremost in my mind is that she will shut it down so that you no longer have that source IF you do need it in the future.
Two out of three on this opinion... I think I'm keeping my sources confidential... Plus, the journalist in me has been screaming this anyway!
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Second, this is where this stuff gets REALLY tricky Alkaline.
You can already see a difference in the approach that Starsky advises you to take vs the approach your IC advises.
I absolutely respect Starsky and his opinions on this stuff.
BUT, he and I, and others, don't always agree. His approached worked for him, mine worked for me.
As I said before, only you can decide what the right way to do this is.
I definitely was NOT suggesting that you take a confrontational approach to this when I told you that you should have the conversation about OM.
IMO, you do all of this in a loving way. IMO, we have to recognize that our WAW's are lost and are trying to find their way. I truly believe that they are in pain... sometimes, probably in more pain than we are as the LBS. I know for a FACT that my W was lost and in pain for the entire time that we were S. I believe that life is not easy and sometimes, we all get lost in one way or another. Those that love us unconditionally will continue to love us even when our behavior is not the best.
At the same time, we do have to have boundaries for US. To protect US. It isn't to control the WAW. It isn't to punish the WAW. It isn't to teach the WAW a lesson.
The boundary is to protect US and our emotional well being.
I tend to agree here as well. I think, at least in my situation, taking a less confrontational, BUT VERY STRONG, approach will be a better choice. The strong boundaries and strong statements I'll make are the most important part... the 180 that I need to concentrate on... Strength in the face of uncertainty...
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
You are going to have this conversation and NOTHING is going to change right away Alkaline. It doesn't matter which approach that you use. I can almost guarantee that. She isn't going to stop seeing OM, she isn't going to up and move home, she isn't going to jump into your arms and be swept away. Why? Because she still has to figure this out for herself. That is going to take lots of time and patience on your part.
I agree with this... And one think I know I have plenty of is time! I'm working on the patience part, and I'm glad you guys are all here to help with that part!
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
IMO, you should take a hybrid approach between what Starsky is saying and what your IC is saying. I like Starsky's no nonsense approach on the OM part. I like that because, most likely, she is not going to be truthful about it. Like I said before, my W was when I asked her. "W having you been seeing OM?", "Yes I have.", "Have you slept with him?", "Yes."... ugh, very painful... even now. But she was straight forward honest. But I don't see that very often on this board. I think that for the most part Starsky is right.
Thinking about this, I highly doubt that I'd get an honest answer here... I know that no matter what she's doing now, she DOESN'T want to hurt me, and her instincts will tell her to hide or sugar-coat as much as she can to protect my (formerly... or at least almost-formerly ) fragile ego. ---
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
I like your IC's opening of the convo.
I tell her about "how hard i've been trying to work on ME and give her the space she needs... etc. etc. etc... [I know that you were unhappy and have been trying to figure out what you want in life. As hurtful as it has been for me, I have tried to support you with this. Above all else, I want you to be happy.]but then a friend emailed me letting me know about these pictures... etc. etc. etc.... Can you explain it to me?"
Then...
"[But] (Wife's first name), I know all about you and ________, and it needs to stop, now. This is completely disrespectful to you, [to me], and to our marriage. When you asked me for space to be alone, I gave it to you. [when you asked for time, I gave it to you. I have been patient.]I told you MONTHS ago that I would only fight for you if OM wasn't in the picture, and I now know you've been lying to me about it.Sounds like we both have some important decisions to make.[It is time for me to make some important decisions for me and our M. As always, you are free to make decisions for yourself and what you think is right. I am not walking away from our M, but I am moving on with my life. I need to try to find some happiness for myself. I will not live in an open M, and I will not be a part of your life as long as you are involved with any OM. This doesn't mean that I've stopped loving you or caring about you. It merely means that I cannot continue to do what we have been doing. I need to protect myself and begin to detach myself from you. So from here on out, please respect this and let me be. If somehow you have some epiphany that you want this M, and that you want to be with me, let me know. You know where I will be. I will either be here for you, or I won't.]"
^^^ much of this is almost identical to the things that I told my W at one time or another during our sitch. Much of it I had to repeat a few times... unfortunately. I think that it is strong, yet loving. It shows respect for yourself and your M, but it also shows unconditional love for your W. Of course, this is my opinion. Others may disagree, and ultimately, you have to use what you decide is right.
After that initial statement, I like what Starsky says:
"And leave it at that. Definitive, declarative, and yet leaves you a ton of wiggle room (because you're not saying ANYTHING you're going to do specifically, right now).
If she tries to lie, and say the whole "just friends" thing, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Please stop. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful." If she tries to say you're "controlling" (as in "You can't tell me who I can be friends with!"), simply agree with her and say "You're right, I can't. You're a grown woman, and I have no desire to control you. All I can do is tell YOU what MY boundaries are, and I won't be in your life as a husband or a friend as long as OM is in your life. That's just a matter of personal integrity with me.""
Absolutely agree with that ^^^
This script is pretty fantastic, I must say... I may make some changes to it... and I'll CERTAINLY post it on this board before I decide to put it into action!
On a side note, is it weird to say that I kinda feel like Luke Skywalker here? Getting such wisdom from the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan... What luck!
So long as his script ends with the "I may still be here, I may not" thing (most people BLOW it at this critical point, and say "I will always love you and will always be here for you," or some other deadline-less statement that creates NO urgency whatsoever for the wayward to end their affair), I'm fine with it.
ABSOLUTELY 1000% agree with this ^^^
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Alkaline - Listen man, there is NO way around the fact that you are going to have to deal with your W getting pissed about some of what you are going to have to say and do here. If you read my threads, you will find that my W called me some of the worst names imaginable at some points... "selfish ****sucker" comes to mind once or twice LOL... of course my W has a sailor's mouth. But she was furious with me multiple times during the 19 months that we did this. Remember, you are not giving her exactly what she wants. Things are not going to go the way that she wants them to all of the time. Of course she's going to get pissed.
This was hard for me, but I eventually had to realize...
...she is NOT going to divorce you because of any of this. IF she divorces you, it is going to be because she is unhappy in life and does not believe that she can find that happiness with you. Not because you pissed her off by setting some boundaries for yourself.
Plus, I learned to actually take a positive to my W getting pissed at me... it demonstrated that she still cared. As long as you have that, you still have a chance.
You're absolutely right.. I'll not be divulging sources. Bringing any third parties (well technically fourth parties at this point) into this will do nothing but muddy the situation and allow her a new place to vent her anger.
Oh, and my W has a sailor's mouth times three too! Kinda love that!
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
My suggestion is above. We must have been typing at the same time. I don't think that Starsky and I, or your IC and I, are that far apart.
Yup... as a matter of fact, it looks like we're typing all over one another right now! But you're right, all the advice I've been getting is pretty close... and as I know the situation better than anyone, I know I'll be able to make the right decision of the Hybrid approach I'm sure to take.
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Personally, I think that this should all be covered in one conversation. Let's call it the "shock and awe" strategy. LOL!
I believe that you can get yourself prepared for this and do it. But I do agree that you absolutely have to hold it together and NOT break down. You have to be strong in front of her, or on the phone with her, no matter what.
Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with you doing it via email. There were a couple of times that I did it that way... simply because my W would always interrupt me and set me off track with what I was trying to say. She'll probably call, but by then, you've said all that you have to say. You can sit there, listen to her, and then reply by telling her that you've said what you have to say and ask her to please respect it.
What do you think about a well written email starsky?
Interested in the e-mail thing... As that would be MUCH easier... but at the same time, I'm not sure it would have the same resonance that a conversation would have.
I could list out the pros and cons, but I'll wait to hear Starsky's advice before even going down that path. I'm certainly leaning toward doing it over the phone.
This script is pretty fantastic, I must say... I may make some changes to it... and I'll CERTAINLY post it on this board before I decide to put it into action!
On a side note, is it weird to say that I kinda feel like Luke Skywalker here? Getting such wisdom from the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan... What luck!
This Padawan thanks you!
Well, I had plenty of time and opportunity to perfect my script! Trust me, there were mistakes along the way. That script that I gave you is closer to what I told my W in the last year, rather than in the beginning when I was much weaker.
Hahahaha! I'm not sure that I'm quite the Jedi! Starsky maybe...
I wish that there was an absolutely 100% path to success with this stuff. All we can do is speak from experience.
I don't blame you for leaning towards the telephone conversation. I get it. However, one other positive to using email:
She will have it in front of her to read over and over and over again, both now, as well as weeks and months from now.
And trust me, she will.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
I have been following & wanted to let you know that you are definitely in great hands here with Denver & Starsky! They have been my mentors, as both of their Sitch's are almost 98% similar to mine. But aren't they all...LoL
