Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Lost and need some guidance on my next steps

Alkaline, that’s awesome that you give your appreciation to all those that give this valuable input. I agree with you 100%, it means a lot. Like myself, I am sure there’s plenty others that read these threads that can learn from them.

Can you expand on this?



That very well may be. I'm guessing a lot of what is attractive to her about OM is that he does exhibit strength and conviction. I'm not saying that those are real qualities that he possesses, but that he is how he probably presents himself. I base that guess on how you describe him.

IF you change your approach, you will have to be prepared to give it some time. Two months I'd say... minimum. I'd suggest focusing no 2 week increments and reassessing.



Again, GAL, go on a trip or two, offer her a glimpse into your world using social media.

The HOPE is that she will see this and that she will be intrigues. Quite frankly, IMO, I hope that it pisses her off. I mean that in a good way. I want her to wonder wtf you are doing and who you are doing it with. I want her to feel a little jealousy. It means that she worries about losing you.

But that is HOPE...

You can't have expectations that it will happen... because it might not.

I know that this is a tough distinction. One that I did struggle with at times.



I don't care if she sees that or not at this point. What do you mean that you didn't pay enough attention to her unhappiness and didn't take the action that you should have taken?

I think that may be a big deal here.

Also, you mentioned in a prior post that she didn't feel that you stood up for her and took her side with family. I've been meaning to ask you about this. What are you talking about?

Not trying to be a harda$s with you... but want the full picture.

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Also, I'd agree with your IC in that you have to make sure that you are emotionally ready to make any big move with this.

W (and I) spent her formative years in Central FL. After high school, she made tons of friends and had her "Wild Years" there. She's kept a good amount of those friendships going to this day. She moved away to GA for a couple years, but found herself going back to Central FL once she broke up with her boyfriend to "be back home"... A couple months later we met (again) and she was off to S. FL a couple months after that.

We were married a couple years later, and (and this will help explain the "I didn't listen to her unhappiness enough" thing) she talked about how much she missed C. FL, her friends there, etc... I kept kinda blowing it off, telling her she needed some time to adjust to S. FL, make some friends, get out more... then she wouldn't feel so "homesick"... Plus, As I'd lived in Central Florida for so many years, I wasn't eager to move back, telling her many times that I had absolutely no desire to go there... this was, in retrospect, a mistake... I could easily have compromised and moved to C.FL after our first lease was up, as nothing much (aside from pride) was keeping me in S. FL... But I persevered, hoping that she'd learn to like it down here and we'd be able to forge a new life together rather than relying on moving back to C.FL to reconnect with old friends...



Hopefully answered that above, but let me expand a bit. Again, I knew she was unhappy in S. FL, but wanted to help here find a life down here... get a job outside of the one I got her with my brother, introduce her to my friends and friends-of-friends, get her into clubs or groups... but she never took to any of those things... So rather than head to Orlando, I tried a million other things to make her happy...

And once the S really hit the fan, I told her I'd be happy to go back to Orlando... we even began looking at houses online... but after she took a trip up there to visit a friend one weekend, she told me she was over the idea (as her friend and her had a fight that weekend) and wanted to just move ANYWHERE else... So we settled on D.C... and that was the last we really planned until she took another trip to Orlando, saw the EX (current OM) and dropped the bomb...



One of my sisters and my sister-in-law are peas-in-a-pod... They have very strong personalities, are, in all honesty, very self-obsessed and opinionated, and are hard to get along with. Well they did get along with W for the most part, but once in a while, one of them would say something kinda mean or inappropriate to her, and I'd say nothing IN FRONT OF THEM... Even going so far as to defend them to my W later... Saying things like "W... That's just how they are... How they've always been..." Behind closed doors, I would voice my disapproval to S and Sis-In-Law, but W never heard me do that... In all honesty, I didn't want to have to stick up for her, as W is a very strong and independent girl who I thought wouldn't WANT me to do that in public... Clearly I was wrong...



Feel free to be a harda$s anytime you need to!

AlkalineThoughts,

"In all honesty, I didn't want to have to stick up for her, as W is a very strong and independent girl who I thought wouldn't WANT me to do that in public... Clearly I was wrong...

"

What does this mean? Does it mean that you did not expect her to stick up for you in public? Or you got blasted in public and she did nothing?

Journaling again:

Had a pretty brutal session with my therapist yesterday... but it boiled down to this: He suggested that once I'm ready (which I'm definitely not today, but hope to be very soon) that I need to talk with W in a very transparent way about the situation we're in...

For quite a while now, I've been operating under the assumption that she has been spending time with OM in Orlando, despite the whole "Need to be alone... find myself..." speech she gave before she left and the assertion that no matter what happened between us that she'd "Never end up with him"...

Well the assumption has been confirmed now, thanks to a friend's recent email letting me know of the pictures that exist of them hanging out together at a bar and at a formal event, where they were lovingly embracing for the camera.

With this new information, It makes less and less sense to continue along the path I've been on... the one where I continue being a good friend, listening to her issues, triumphs, and random thoughts on life, and being there for her emotionally when she needs someone to vent with.

As hard as it is for me to say (and I still don't 100% believe it) It's time to change the dynamic here... It's so hard to say that because I can look closely and see all sorts of positive signs of change between us... the sweet emails she sends on occasion, the nice conversations, the random texts about almost nothing... All signs that things are continuing on a path that I'm looking to be on... one which we end up back together and happier than ever...

But with the confirmed knowledge that she is still spending time with another man, I'm starting to enter (as my therapist so bluntly told me) cuckold territory.

He asked a few time and in a few different ways if I was beginning to change my mind on what my course of action was going to be... and I eventually danced around to the point that this new method (of bringing it all to the table and letting her know that I can't continue to be an "option") is beginning to take up a stronger foothold in my head with each passing day...

I told him months ago that one of the conditions to us EVER getting back together was that OM would have to be completely out of the picture... I can't feel confident in a relationship in which my W is still friends with someone who she's "still loves" and would leave me for... even if she "realizes her mistake"...

So he thinks that this bold move may be good for me, and COULD be good for "us"... As all I'm doing, technically, is moving the timeframe up of my conditions...

Although the advice I'm getting from the boards and most of my friends is to be blunt and just ask "Are you dating OM? Are you with OM? Are You Sleeping with OM?" type questions, my IC suggested a different approach... One of transparency, full disclosure, and questioning rather than demanding.

So, he suggested that when I decide to bring this up (which I'm NOT ready to yet, but imagine I will be soon) that I tell her exactly what's gotten me to this point... Meaning I tell her about "how hard i've been trying to work on ME and give her the space she needs... etc. etc. etc... but then a friend emailed me letting me know about these pictures... etc. etc. etc.... Can you explain it to me?"

Keep it an open question to give her a chance to explain what's happening without being accusatory... Since we couldn't start talking about what would happen next, as there are a million things she could say (One: Deny anything is happening, Two: Confirm everything, or the most likely Three: Somewhere in the middle)... At least then things would be out in the open and I'll be able to take my next step based on what comes out of her mouth...

Terrifying concept, but one that I think needs to be put into action... Probably not the next time we talk, but soon...

Alk,

There's no sense ASKING her to be truthful with you, because -- by definition -- all cheaters lie, period. In addition, it will make you look supplicating and weak at BEST, and controlling and accusatory at WORST.

Not a good way to go.

My advice is always for people to make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN, first (and we certainly are here), and simply say "(Wife's first name), I know all about you and ________, and it needs to stop, now. This is completely disrespectful to you and to our marriage. When you asked me for space to be alone, I gave it to you. I told you MONTHS ago that I would only fight for you if OM wasn't in the picture, and I now know you've been lying to me about it. Sounds like we both have some important decisions to make."

And leave it at that. Definitive, declarative, and yet leaves you a ton of wiggle room (because you're not saying ANYTHING you're going to do specifically, right now).

If she tries to lie, and say the whole "just friends" thing, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Please stop. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful." If she tries to say you're "controlling" (as in "You can't tell me who I can be friends with!"), simply agree with her and say "You're right, I can't. You're a grown woman, and I have no desire to control you. All I can do is tell YOU what MY boundaries are, and I won't be in your life as a husband or a friend as long as OM is in your life. That's just a matter of personal integrity with me."

And END THE CONVERSATION as quickly as possible. NO R TALK, NO DECEIT from her lips.

I'll have more thoughts later, as I feel VERY strongly about this. WHENEVER you're ready to do this is entirely up to you, Alk -- I just want you to do it RIGHT when you do, because . . . as we say around here . . . you only get one crack at this. This is truly going to be one of those life-defining moments for you.


Starsky

P.S.

And I need to add, under NO circumstances do you EVER reveal the source of your intel. If she asks you "What are you even TALKING about? What is it you think you know?" just be vague. "Frankly, I don't owe you any answers right now. Suffice to say that I know, I have proof, and we wouldn't be having this difficult conversation right now if I didn't."

The beauty of this, btw, is that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW. Immediately, her mind will race to EVERYTHING she has done with him that is inappropriate, and wonder just which things you know about. Chances are that the photos from the bar and the formal event are but two of what probably are their MOST innocuous rendezvous.

I did this, with my wife. All I knew about was her text messages and some time spent in OM's car in a parking lot, but my voice intel then revealed them saying "I mean, I don't know what he thinks he knows. Unless he had a camera in the bushes that night at Jeremy's house outside the bedroom, how could he know anything?"

Which is how I found out the EA had become a PA.

Okay. So we know a few places where maybe she feels that you let her down. And it seems that you agree.

I'm not sure that this stuff is the most pressing thing to talk about right now, but I will just say that IF you find yourself in a conversation with her about these things, you should listen to her and validate her feelings. Don't defend, explain, just validate... "W, you are absolutely right about this. I didn't not handle those situations well. I know that now, and I'm so very sorry. I can't change the past, but I can make sure not to repeat the mistakes of the past. That's all that I can say or do."

vs.



First, I do agree with Starsky that you should not divulge the source of your intel. Multiple reasons for that, but first and foremost in my mind is that she will shut it down so that you no longer have that source IF you do need it in the future.

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Second, this is where this stuff gets REALLY tricky Alkaline.

You can already see a difference in the approach that Starsky advises you to take vs the approach your IC advises.

I absolutely respect Starsky and his opinions on this stuff.

BUT, he and I, and others, don't always agree. His approached worked for him, mine worked for me.

As I said before, only you can decide what the right way to do this is.

I definitely was NOT suggesting that you take a confrontational approach to this when I told you that you should have the conversation about OM.

IMO, you do all of this in a loving way. IMO, we have to recognize that our WAW's are lost and are trying to find their way. I truly believe that they are in pain... sometimes, probably in more pain than we are as the LBS. I know for a FACT that my W was lost and in pain for the entire time that we were S. I believe that life is not easy and sometimes, we all get lost in one way or another. Those that love us unconditionally will continue to love us even when our behavior is not the best.

At the same time, we do have to have boundaries for US. To protect US. It isn't to control the WAW. It isn't to punish the WAW. It isn't to teach the WAW a lesson.

The boundary is to protect US and our emotional well being.

You are going to have this conversation and NOTHING is going to change right away Alkaline. It doesn't matter which approach that you use. I can almost guarantee that. She isn't going to stop seeing OM, she isn't going to up and move home, she isn't going to jump into your arms and be swept away. Why? Because she still has to figure this out for herself. That is going to take lots of time and patience on your part.

IMO, you should take a hybrid approach between what Starsky is saying and what your IC is saying. I like Starsky's no nonsense approach on the OM part. I like that because, most likely, she is not going to be truthful about it. Like I said before, my W was when I asked her. "W having you been seeing OM?", "Yes I have.", "Have you slept with him?", "Yes."... ugh, very painful... even now. But she was straight forward honest. But I don't see that very often on this board. I think that for the most part Starsky is right.
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I like your IC's opening of the convo.

I tell her about "how hard i've been trying to work on ME and give her the space she needs... etc. etc. etc... [I know that you were unhappy and have been trying to figure out what you want in life. As hurtful as it has been for me, I have tried to support you with this. Above all else, I want you to be happy.]but then a friend emailed me letting me know about these pictures... etc. etc. etc.... Can you explain it to me?"

Then...

"[But] (Wife's first name), I know all about you and ________, and it needs to stop, now. This is completely disrespectful to you, [to me], and to our marriage. When you asked me for space to be alone, I gave it to you. [when you asked for time, I gave it to you. I have been patient.]I told you MONTHS ago that I would only fight for you if OM wasn't in the picture, and I now know you've been lying to me about it. Sounds like we both have some important decisions to make. [It is time for me to make some important decisions for me and our M. As always, you are free to make decisions for yourself and what you think is right. I am not walking away from our M, but I am moving on with my life. I need to try to find some happiness for myself. I will not live in an open M, and I will not be a part of your life as long as you are involved with any OM. This doesn't mean that I've stopped loving you or caring about you. It merely means that I cannot continue to do what we have been doing. I need to protect myself and begin to detach myself from you. So from here on out, please respect this and let me be. If somehow you have some epiphany that you want this M, and that you want to be with me, let me know. You know where I will be. I will either be here for you, or I won't.]"

^^^ much of this is almost identical to the things that I told my W at one time or another during our sitch. Much of it I had to repeat a few times... unfortunately. I think that it is strong, yet loving. It shows respect for yourself and your M, but it also shows unconditional love for your W. Of course, this is my opinion. Others may disagree, and ultimately, you have to use what you decide is right.

After that initial statement, I like what Starsky says:

"And leave it at that. Definitive, declarative, and yet leaves you a ton of wiggle room (because you're not saying ANYTHING you're going to do specifically, right now).

If she tries to lie, and say the whole "just friends" thing, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "Please stop. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful." If she tries to say you're "controlling" (as in "You can't tell me who I can be friends with!"), simply agree with her and say "You're right, I can't. You're a grown woman, and I have no desire to control you. All I can do is tell YOU what MY boundaries are, and I won't be in your life as a husband or a friend as long as OM is in your life. That's just a matter of personal integrity with me.""

Absolutely agree with that ^^^