And I can keep focusing on the positive things, like being off moderation now!
I'm going to do a little journaling now while I wait for the good advice that keeps coming from this board. Plus, I'm sure i'll be posing plenty more questions in the process..Just keeping you on your toes :p
I must admit I had a pretty great weekend. Or at least a great weekend-sandwich. Friday night I took my puppy (11 months old now, originally purchased to help break W out of a funk, now doing that for me every day!) over to a friend's house for a "Puppy play date". Ended up spending the night, as the friend and I got into a deep talk about my sitch and had a few too many drinks while the doggies were having a blast in the back yard. Although I didn't at all agree with most of the advice my friend gave me (most of which goes very counter to DB/DR stuff) It was still nice to have a fresh set of ears to listen.
Saturday wasn't the greatest day, as the dogs woke us up at 8 am and I had a pretty bad hangover... So I spent most of the day sleeping it off on the couch. Once I felt fully recovered, I reached out to a few friends, who were busy or too far away to hang out with, so I decided to just stay in, rent a couple movies and call it a night. This was both a good and bad decision: I loved the movies I saw and my wallet enjoyed me staying in for the night, but I repeatedly thought to myself how much W would like this movie or how much I miss our lazy nights at home doing exactly what I was doing right then. Plus, the fact that I knew she was out having a good time (possibly with OM, possibly not, as I've said, she's never admitted to having a PA with OM) as she'd told me were her plans the last time we talked, crept into my mind a few times. Thankfully, I didn't try to text her or email her (like I would have a few months ago) but the sadness still crept in.
Side note: During our last conversation, when she told me about her plans for getting dolled up over the weekend to volunteer at a black-tie type event and dance, she told me she'd be sure to send a picture of how she looked that night. I was torn by this... both wanting to see how gorgeous she is and not sure if I'd be able to handle it... Thankfully, the picture never arrived. And, up to this point, I haven't gone looking at Social Media sites where I'm sure they're posted to have a gander. I hope I can keep this up, as I'm not sure what I'd gain from looking...
Anyway, woke up early on Sunday, ready to get out of the house and do something. Sundays are always the toughest day for me, as these were the days W and I looked forward to so much. Thankfully, my brother texted me early in the morning inviting me down to hang out at the SUPER fancy hotel and spa that a bunch of our friends were staying at for the weekend. I headed down there, worked out at the gym, hung at the pool for a few hours, and even hit the Spa! This was the first time I'd ever been to a spa (and is totally uncharacteristic of me to do) but I gave it a shot anyway. Although I'm not sure i'll be visiting saunas, steam rooms, etc... much in the future, there were plenty of new experiences that were pretty fun... And for the most part, my PMA worked out. I did find myself looking at a bunch of the couples that were EVERYWHERE and wishing that I had someone to share these experiences with... (aside from all the couples that invited me to hang out).
So today I'm thinking about striking that balance between continuing to be W's friend and not being sad when progress in the R seems to not be taking place. I read through the "More Nuggets of Wisdom" archive thread and found a great quote from Hacker that I really like:
Originally Posted By: hacker
You don't go dark just for the sake of going dark. You go dark when everything else has failed and there is no hope left. I don't think you are at that point... If you can keep the conversations going and focus on her being your friend right now, that's good. Forget the overall goal and stick to baby goals.
Now maybe I should start working on baby goals (while continuing to work on detaching).
Something as small as making her laugh the next time we talk might work...
I also read in the "Nuggets" section a couple lines (again from Hacker I believe) about the shift he went through in going from "Needing to be with his W" to "Wanting to be with his W, as in to walk through life together". HUGE difference there... and something to give a lot of though to personally.
Today's thoughts (while I wait for more helpful advice).
The words of my IC keep running through my mind "Nothing Needs To Be Done"... There are days like today where my mind starts spinning and I start trying to brainstorm what I need to do to help bring us closer together...
To digress: We haven't talked on the phone for a week, which isn't TOO unusual, as she'll normally call about once a week. She'll send me a text every few days, normally asking about work-related stuff or fantasy football, and not getting into anything personal... except she'll ask me to give our dog a kiss for her and tells me we'll "Catch up soon"
Then my mind will race a bit, wondering when "Soon" is, what I should talk about when she calls, how to achieve a baby-step goal like getting her to laugh... And I hear "Nothing Needs To Be Done" in my head.
I know the above thoughts aren't good ones to have. I know I need to keep working on Detaching so that I can keep working on myself . I KNOW that nothing I can say or do will change her mind or cause her to act differently. I know I need to "Drop the Rope" and Detach with Love. I just need some help doing that some days.
As you can read above, I'm working hard on GAL, hitting the gym almost every day, trying to hang out with friends as often as possible, trying new things etc. But she's always on my mind. I know this is "normal" but some days it's just hard to keep going along this path. A part of my brain SCREAMS that I could be doing SOMETHING to bring us closer together.
But "Nothing Needs To Be Done" rings through my head, and I'm able to at least not ACT on my thoughts. I guess that's a good step! I'm still not initiating most contact, I'm not pursuing, Not bringing up R talks... just being cordial and friendly when we do talk.
With the positive way our conversations have gone lately and the random email she sent a couple weeks back about hearing the song on the radio that reminded her of us (and made her cry tears of sadness and happiness) I decided to do a little experiment in our communications. While I still keep them very light, I'm trying to flirt just a little bit. Up to this point, she hasn't flirted back at all, but she hasn't pulled away either. I'm not sure if I should keep it up or drop it though. And they're not the over-the-top flirts that I used to do when we were together... just little things in text responses like "Any office would be lucky to have you" and an occasional XOXO (which, a couple weeks ago she would always end conversations with, but hasn't in a while).
So do I keep that up, or is that pursuing? I've read so many different opinions on this board about that... some saying that if communications are open and light, flirting can be a nice thing (even though OM is still in the picture) and some saying that it's pursuing behavior.
I must say I'm pretty proud of myself today. Yesterday, despite my brain's screaming to "try something" or "do something" I did nothing in regards to trying to get closer to WAW. I was even able to eek out a pretty good night hanging out with my puppy, chatting with my brother on the phone about football, and catching up on some TV shows I'd fallen behind on.
Plus, I had some more time to think about my "experiment" that I've been doing for the last few days, and time to reflect on the actions I've taken over the last few weeks and the "results" of those actions.
One of the things that came up has to do with the last time I actually initiated contact. A couple weeks ago, I woke up in the morning and decided to send her a quick text letting her know that I was thinking about her that morning, as I knew that she had a VERY difficult day ahead of her personally. She responded to that text, letting me know the circumstances that were going to cause her AWFUL day had changed. She thanked me for the thoughts and told me we'd catch up soon.
Then, at 1:00 that morning, I got the email about her hearing the song on the radio... Her reaching out, unsolicited, telling me about an intimate moment of her day, mirroring the "thinking of you" sentiment I'd sent earlier that day... Sure her email carried more of a melancholy tone, but I was able to check off another short term goal from my list.
I haven't reached out to her in that way again since that exchange a couple weeks ago. But I think that will change tonight. More on that later.
The other thing that I examined last night was the last R talk we had... If you're caught up on my sitch, it was the one about a month back where I took the bait and kinda blew up over the "Why Didn't You Fight For Me" comment...
The results of that were kinda mixed. After that, she defriended me on FB and sent an email saying that she didn't see us ever finding happiness in each other, but she knew we were meant to be in each others lives... However, looking back a bit, I think me showing such emotion and letting so many of my feelings be known might have ended up being a positive thing. First off, our conversations since then have been squarely set in the present and future. Secondly, aside from the "Defriending" incident, it hasn't effected the frequency of our conversations. It HAS affected the tone, as I now realize she's stopped with her "XOXO" tags on her texts and stays unresponsive to the little flirts. So again, that was a mixed bag. At first, I thought it was going to be an apocalyptic backslide, but I can now see a few positives over that situation.
Anyway, after thinking about these things, especially the results of my last initiation of contact a couple weeks back, I've decided to continue that particular experiment later today/tonight. I'm planning on writing her an email about a really vivid dream I had last night (something we used to do quite a bit early in our relationship) and update on the puppy and kitty, and a wish of good luck for her job interview tomorrow morning... Although by strict DB standards, this will be seen as "pursuing" behavior, I'm going to go off the tracks a bit and trust my IC and "Monitoring of Results" this time...
Unless of course one of you fine folks talks me out of it! I'm planning on writing the email over lunch and saving it as draft, so I can re-read it this evening before bed to edit it down and fire it off.
Alkaline: Sound like your doing a good job to me. Its incredibly hard to stop your thoughts, Im not sure when that part gets easier, but to me its much more important early on to be able to stop your actions and that you've already done. Flirting via text is a tough one....if your getting nothing in return then I would say that she's probably not disliking it, but at the same time by doing so your able to fulfill a need for her and she's not even acknowledging it so it is a bit like cake eating I think. Its a tough spot your in b/c she wants to put it on you as though you didnt fight for her, but at the same time you can turn that the other way and tell her that your right where you've always been and that the door is open.
Like you I haven't spoken to my W in almost......crap I can't remember to be honest with you the last time we spoke words....I think it was last Tuesday but im not sure. I know we texted a bit on Friday but I "think" the last voice contact was on Tuesday. Anyway...mine too always says talk to you soon, or see you soon or something similar when we part, but its more an expression than a plan I think.
But as far as it relates to not pursuing, and her trying to not take responsibility by saying you didnt "fight for her" i'd say the same thing in relation to talking on the phone/texting as I said above about the leaving thing....if she ever brings it up again you can tell her that your "fighting for her" right now by working to improve yourself and in the process your marriage, but dont give her specifics.....and the phone/text thing....assuming she ever mentions again that you don't initiate contact just tell her that obviously by leaving S FL to go to C fl she needed some space and you wanted/are still wanting to give her that space but at your always avaialable. If she wants to call you that you'd love to hear from her, but at least for now your giving her the space she asked for.
I dont know if she specifically asked you for space, but by moving she certainly implied she wanted it and your simply giving her that.
Carnac: Thanks for the speedy reply! I think putting a halt to the flirting is a good idea, and I'm planning on doing that. If I feel that she starts to warm to it again, or if she shows any sign in that respect, I'll give it another shot. I agree that although she's probably not disliking it, I can't see it getting me closer to my goals at this moment.
As far as "Talk to you soon" being more an expression than a plan, I've got to agree with you there. She's pretty specific with a date when she's really planning to talk... And even then it's normally a day or two after the promised day. This used to hurt my feelings, but now I can shrug it off much easier.
Now for the "fight for her" aspect. I'm so glad you said what you said and suggested what you did. FYI, you're advice is very similar to that of my IC, which is a great testament to you!
The day after that particular conversation, on my ICs advice I sent a quick note, telling her I'd had some time to dissect her question and was now of clearer mind, and had something to ask. Would she be interested, now and in the future, if I began contacting her in hopes of rekindling a relationship. I got a pretty resounding "No" email response, which really threw me for a loop... but I went over those thoughts in a previous post, so I won't recycle them here.
Once I got that email response though, rather than simply respond back, I gave her a call to discuss. During that discussion, between her telling me things like she saw no future with us, that she was happier than she'd ever been etc. (where my mind kept screaming "Believe none of what she says and only half of what she does!") I DID lay some things out.
I let her know that no matter what it looked like, the fact that I'm NOT calling and texting and emailing every day IS my fight. It's probably the hardest thing i've ever had to do, but in order to respect her need for time and space for self-discovery (things she very specifically pointed out before she left) I felt it was only fair to give her the space that she asked for and demanded when moving hundreds of miles away.
A side note from my IC, he claims that by sending the email I sent, asking if she'd be interested in me contacting her in hopes of rekindling our relationship, and her responding no, that I'd actually freed myself. Now, any contact I decide to make can't be seen as an attempt to rekindle a relationship, as she clearly stated she wasn't interested in that. Instead, it's simply a friendly text, email or phone call. He did caution me that the frequency and content of each of those conversations needs to be VERY carefully controlled... Something I've done a great job of thus far.
As a matter of fact, the email which is completed but sitting in draft status right now, is the first me-initiated contact in over two weeks... A frequency I'd hope would be seen as comfortable... But we'll see!
I let her know that no matter what it looked like, the fact that I'm NOT calling and texting and emailing every day IS my fight. It's probably the hardest thing i've ever had to do, but in order to respect her need for time and space for self-discovery (things she very specifically pointed out before she left) I felt it was only fair to give her the space that she asked for and demanded when moving hundreds of miles away.
Alkaline: Its good that you made that clear to her. Its exactly what I did myself. My wife asked me for time and space and I have given it to her in spades. But I made sure early on to let her know that I would love to have conversations with her, go to counseling with her, text with her, whatever it may be, but that she would have to be the one to initiate those things because at least for now im going to RESPECT her wishes for time and space.
Its really test #1 in my mind when your spouse asks you for some time and space do you give it to them. If you fail that then why would they trust that you'll be able to do anything else they may need you to do to repair the relationship. Im sure thats not 100% true in every situation, but at least in mine im positive thats what it was about b/c I had failed to give her space in the past when she asked for it.
I'm definitely glad that I made that known to her. I occasionally (well, more than occasionally really!) feel the need to reiterate this point to her, but I have to remember that I already told her this, a couple times actually, and she's bound to remember it when she needs to.
I too always had a hard time giving W the space she wanted and needed. I've always been a very affectionate person who truly enjoys spending every waking second with W, but that didn't jive with what she needed. She always had her independence before we met, and I'm sure she feels she lost some of that... Now, she could have done plenty to get more space, but I'm willing to accept that as a big change I'll need to make if/when our paths cross again.
I also HATED when any type of argument wasn't resolved before bedtime... I simply insisted on talking it out until I was satisfied that the issue was put to rest... which almost never happened. She is the type that needs to sit and mull it over for a while, and me being "Mr Fix It RIGHT NOW" always pushed my agenda... Another thing I'm learning to change thanks to this time I've been given.
As tough as it is, especially knowing there's an OM in the picture, I have to keep remembering these things:
It's a marathon, not a sprint I can't do anything to change her mind or actions I have to continue my GAL/180s I have to keep a PMA I need to remember to DO NOTHING most times
And the one that's hardest to accept:
I'll be fine no matter how this turns out
That last one still doesn't ring 100% true in my heart, but deep down, I know that these actions I'm taking to better myself are FOR myself... They'll help be become a better person no matter what, and since I can't MAKE W come back, I can just continue along my path, keep HOPE alive, but have NO EXPECTATIONS.
I too always had a hard time giving W the space she wanted and needed. I've always been a very affectionate person who truly enjoys spending every waking second with W, but that didn't jive with what she needed. She always had her independence before we met, and I'm sure she feels she lost some of that... Now, she could have done plenty to get more space, but I'm willing to accept that as a big change I'll need to make if/when our paths cross again.
I also HATED when any type of argument wasn't resolved before bedtime... I simply insisted on talking it out until I was satisfied that the issue was put to rest... which almost never happened. She is the type that needs to sit and mull it over for a while, and me being "Mr Fix It RIGHT NOW" always pushed my agenda... Another thing I'm learning to change thanks to this time I've been given.
Its amazing how many similarities so many of these situations have. I remember years ago when my W and I went to see a marriage counselor (man do I wish now we had stuck with that longer.....a month in we thought everything was rosey so we quit and now here we are) anyway, when we went and he started talking about problems I realized so quickly that our situation wasn't at all unique and most couples have some variation of the same problems.
You saying you needed to talk it out and she needing time to gather her thoughts rings so true with me. I can't even begin to tell you how many times,looking back, that we had "discussions" when later I realized she never said anything b/c either I didnt give her the chance or she hadn't had time to think it through and then i'd basically brow beat her with my opinion. I can even remember her saying she didnt wanna talk about it right now, whatever the it was and I saying I just wanna say this one thing or something similar. Im not here to take all the blame....sure she did alot of head burying and really is so conflict avoidant that if I didnt bring something up repeatedly that she would "never" get around to talking about it b/c she would rather just bury her head and hope that it goes away.
So im not gonna take all of the blame but still...dang I was stupid. Its amazing what a little therapy and alot of introspection can do for someone. And im not sitting here telling you "im cured" and wouldnt do it again tomorrow if I wasn't dilligent about paying attention, but I can certainly tell you that looking backwards I can recognize what an "idiot" I was and in my next relationship I will do things DRASTICALLY different.
I'll agree with you as well that DOING NOTHING is absolutely the hardest thing i've ever done.
And its funny cause I can't even bring myself to say that i'll be fine either way yet. Im gonna be a better person no matter what...and im gonna have good relationships no matter what....but im still at the point where if I lose my wife im gonna hurt for a LOOOOONG time.
I've just caught up on your sitch. You seem to be doing well but I was wondering what 180s you were doing? What exactly did your W give you as a reason for leaving other than the fact that she didn't like living in South Florida? Would relocating to Central Florida help at all?
I was also thinking that you might want to post that email you plan to send on this thread to hear people's thoughts on it. Vets around here a very good at editing correspondence to make it more efficient without hurting your sitch. Mind you, as you said, you'll be breaking DB rules. Are you sure you want to do that at this point?
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
And its funny cause I can't even bring myself to say that i'll be fine either way yet. Im gonna be a better person no matter what...and im gonna have good relationships no matter what....but im still at the point where if I lose my wife im gonna hurt for a LOOOOONG time.
I completely agree with this. I'm taking the last part of your quote here as "I'll be fine either way"... In that i'll be a better person and I'm gonna have good relationships no matter what. Obviously, I hope that W is the R that works out in the end, and if it doesn't, I can't possibly say I won't be devastated.
Now for some journaling...
So the final part of my "Experiment" is complete... and at this moment, I think it was a mistake. I wrote that email early yesterday morning and saved it as a draft... knowing I'd need some time to make sure I wanted to send it. The contents consisted of a beautiful dream I had (something we used to share via email a ton back in our "courting" days), a quick update on the "kids" (our dog and cat), and a wish for luck on her job interviews today.
I loved the email all day, and couldn't think of why I wouldn't send it later last night. Although the dream was about us, I made it clear that I wasn't sharing it because I wanted her interpretation or to show her some hopeful vision of an unrealized future. Instead I wanted to let her know that when I awoke from the dream, I wasn't filled with a sense of melancholy, instead a sense of calm. The worst thing I could have imagined happening in our relationship has already happened, and I'm still here (despite me thinking I'd fall apart) This experience is helping me to find a strength and conviction that has lied dormant for years.
Well about three milliseconds after I hit send, I realized my heart was racing... A bad sign. I found myself wondering what she would respond... or if she would respond... Then, when I got to work this morning and charged my phone (which had died early last evening and I'd forgotten my charger at work), I saw that she had texted me last night to update me on some work stuff, her upcoming interview, and to let me know of her plans for tonight...
I responded back another wish for luck and thanking her for the work update... And haven't received a response to that text yet.
Yes, I'm beating myself up a bit right now... And I'm over-analyzing the lack of reaction to my email and text... In other words, I've done a terrible job with the whole DETACHING thing over the last 24 hours.
But by writing on this board, getting my thoughts out there, I'm hoping that I'll be able to move past this... to forgive myself for this series of mistakes, and learn that I need to pull back even further... I know IC told me that reaching out in a friendly way once in a while was a good thing, but after reaching out this time, I'm not feeling so good.
So long as I learn my lesson here, I know I'll be able to get over the beating myself up... Now I've got to figure out how to stop worrying about the lack of response... Because no response might be a good thing right?
This is certainly harder some days than others! Feedback, as always, greatly appreciated.
