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We don't know what she expects from you. Probably a lot of dashed expecations from her marriage for years...

And Is she really "walking all over you" right now?

I mean legally, She has the right, in her country, to full custody and money from you.
You could get squat if she were "walking all over you".

But she's waffling on how much shared custody and asking nothing of you financially, b/c she knows you love your d and she loves you and she wants to hurt neither of you. AND

You think she's wrong to expect you to be nice to her?

Wow...okay that says something.

To me, that's the saddest part of your note. That you think being nice to her is too much for her to expect, and that it took so much effort all while saying it was easy. I'm confused. It's wrong for her to expect you to be polite to her

(which is all you were to her, b/c any stranger arriving at dinner time would be offered food - and you did nothing beyond that for her...)

and this expectation of hers, is wrong-

despite years of your behavior of curt rudeness and overt criticism of her people, her land, her customs, and herself, and a lousy temper to boot.

Think again.

You feel guilt that she's sad. That's okay b/c it's not true guilt; its compassion.

Practice it and embrace it even when it's not fun or comfortable.

Show her THAT guy...let her fall in love with you again.

Thanks 25,

Once again you put me right back in my place. I agree with a lot of what you say but there is a lot I would like to defend as well to the risk of sounding petty.

First of all, I do vent here because I don't want to say a lot of stuff to my wife while my emotions have the best of me. I realise you have no way of knowing what is simply venting and what is truly felt so I'm not going to go through the whole post.


So what? She did NOT promise she'd come to the pool or when

W has a long history of saying she would come and just not show up or show up late. I asked her to please let me know when she would be there so that D8 would not be disappointed and so I could plan my day around her. Unfortunately, a few days ago we had an argument over this (post #2272288 ) over a misunderstanding from her part and I took it quite badly. My comment wasn't about her coming to the pool but about her saying she would come today without telling me when (I didn't wish to go through what we had gone through the previous day)
Besides, D8 has been hurt too many times already by these promises which are changed without notice. This is why I ask her for the simple courtesy of telling me when she will be there. I don't think it's too much to ask and from what I read on this site, in the US people get a time and day for their visits. For me, I don't intend on telling her how much (or little) she can see D8 but I'd like her to tell me what time she will be there.


making snarky remarks about her finally showing

This was not meant to be a "snarky remark", just a statement of fact. You must think me an absolute jerk but please believe me, I am not as bad as you may think I am.

well, we can hope she did not notice your glee.

Again, I was misunderstood. The "chuckle" was not external but simply caused by the fact that within the "goals" I had listed, the one which said I would like her to leave OM was followed by the fact that she might stop wearing his ring and start wearing my necklace, and the very next day she does. The chuckle was actually at myself, and how little I know her.


it's debatable as to whether you should or could have invited her. Okay, you COULD have, but should you? I can't say. I lean towards saying no only b/c I want you to NOT pursue,

Actually, you are right. I was still angry at the previous day but if you read my next post you'll see what eventually happened.

acting "as if" INCLUDES being pleasant. Do you get that?

I guess I'm not clear on your usage of these terms here. ALWAYS be pleasant to her.
Esp in your sitch, b/c (sorry Arsene, truly but you were a bit of a self absorbed jerk to her for a long time).

Yes, you are right, and I always try to be pleasant even though at times I don't feel like it. After the way she treated me the day before, it was very difficult for me to be pleasant but I think I did a good job of it. With regards to me being a self absorbed jerk to her for a long time, it is debatable and it is what she says now. I do accept that I was not there for her, but her side of the story might also not be the entire truth. I am a decent man and I always cared for her. She was not a slave stuck at home catering to my every needs. She was encouraged to pursue her career, had a maid to take care of all the chores and D8, I took an active part in D8's upbringing and education, we spent a lot of time together and I didn't dump any housework on her, and she was loved to the best I know how. If I failed her, it certainly was not voluntarily, nonetheless, I did fail her, and hurt her, and I'll take responsibility for this.


Thing is you want your time with her, at her initiation, to be warm and to contrast it with your prior behaviors. (The real goal of getting her back, only happens if she thinks life with you can be better/different than before. Don't forget that.)

Yeah, I know. Thanks for reminding me. In fact, that's what I did (tried to do) today. Read on.

I think what you want to do is what I call contrasting the life she can have with OM, which may mean no "family holidays" or open r time, or stability or fidelity, and societal condemnation,

with a life at a warm, loving home, with stability, financially and emotionally, her child, and the loving father of her child and partner in life.

Bingo! That's exactly what I want to do. Thanks for spelling it out this way.

Look 25, I don't mean to be fighting you on any of this. I know you've been right before about me, about things I didn't realise until you pointed them out. It's just that I come her to write when I'm at my worst, when I've been hurt and don't want to lash out at W. I come here to vent and at times I do say what is in my "angry" mind. Things i am glad i don't tell her. I'm coming to the point now, when I'm starting to see that I am not everything she painted me to be. I'm not as horrible as she would like me to be at this time. It might not sound like this to you for some reasons but I don't think you get the whole picture of our lives together in this country.

Nonetheless, most of the time, I do appreciate your brutality (for lack of a better word) in exposing the "true" person within me. It does help in many ways but it also steps hard on a very low self-esteem which I'm am slowly trying to rebuild.

Don't take me wrong, though. I am grateful for your presence and the time you spend on my sitch. I know I'm not where I want to be yet and your support is offering me a lot of different perspectives, and insight on my true self, even if its not always nice.

Thanks again, truly.

And this is what happened today.

This morning, my friend had to cancel the Idul Fitri celebration I was to attend so I let W know that she could come here earlier (she'd asked me to let her know what time we'd be back home).

After my meditaiton lesson, W texted me to say she would be home in about an hour. I have to admit that the thought of being with her here all day (I had nowhere to go) didn't appeal to me so i thought about doing something as a family for this holiday. I checked to see if the local "waterpark" was open and then texted W to tell her that I was thinking about taking D8 there and that she was welcome to tag along. She quickly replied that it was a great idea and that she would love to go but that it was too expensive. I told her that D8 really wanted to go and that it was my treat. She accepted.

I picked her up and we had lunch on the way (her treat)and ended up having a great time together. I'll skip through the details but suffice to say that we had no R talk, that I was all ears, we had pleasant light convos and had a lot of fun with D8.

As we drove through the city n our way there, she/we often reminisced about our past as we saw features which were parts of our past life.

Although we had fun throughout the day, I noticed that W often seemed pensive and sad (D8 also mentioned it). She even asked me why we hadn't been there before and I told her that it's probably because I used to hate driving through the city and going to crowded places and because I was so worried about money. She acknowledged silently.

She commented a few times on how great i now looked ( I have lost 15 KG in the last 3 months and my 180s (4-5 times a week at the pool doing laps for 45 minutes and daily exercises) have helped a lot. She also commented on my calmness in traffic.

At the end of the day, we went back home and I thanked her for coming along. I told her that I thought D8 had enjoyed it a lot. W said that she had also had a great time and thanked me for inviting her. I reciprocated that I had enjoyed it as well.

Soon after coming back home, I left to go out with friends. She looked a bit surprised to see me go but we parted in a friendly way.

Later in the evening, she text me to say that she had found a small book I had received from my meditation lessons, saying she had started to read it and thought it interesting. She asked if she could borrow it and I agreed. This is the second time she shows interest in these meditation lessons. I would love her to give it a try. For me it was a good way to figure out a lot of stuff about myself. I won't tell her that though. I hope that she can come to that conclusion by herself.

I know many of you might disagree with what I did today but for me, it was an opportunity to show her what she was missing and how, we are there for her, while OM can't always be. She hadn't had a chance to have this type of family interaction since I left for my country three months ago. Now it's something for her to thing about.

I believe she was happy to be with us on this holiday. I felt good about it as well and although I might be told I'm pursuing, and you may be right, I still think it was the right thing to do. Once, a long time ago, after having recently moved to a new town, I was invited by strangers to spend Christmas eve with them and I'll never forget that. If strangers can do this , I should do at least the same with the woman I love.

Arsene,

first, about the venting... Yes You do need a place to vent and this is the place. My issue may not apply to YOU, but it's two fold.

Venting is fine when it helps settle you down and cool you off or even get you to see things in a new way.

Venting is fine when you grow from it.

My problem is, as you said, 1) we can't tell if you are merely venting (telling us helps) and or,

2) if we need to help you correct your course b/c maybe you are swirling in anger and staying stuck there. A lot of folks do.

Venting CAN help people to go in circles w/their fired up anger and wounded egos, and pretty soon they begin to circle the drain, and we know how that goes. They go down the drain and become bitter and self pitying which is super attractive.

So I'll assume you are venting, but may gently nudge you if it seems like you are getting too negative, okay?

Next, about your wife being late, or not showing up, okay. You've told her that you want advance notice and some precision in her time estimates

and you two have fought about it. So you've made your point, right? Don't beat a dead horse or lose your temper again.

So now, drop it. End of story.

Next time she's "too late" your d won't know b/c you won't have told her that her mom is coming, or when,

AND you will leave to GAL with your d...and your w will figure things out.
You will NOT have changed or shifted your schedule to accomadate your wife's showing up late or not at all, you will have done your thing...

This is NOT to punish your w but to help you keep your life and schedule in your control.

Obviously if you said you were going to be somewhere "for hours" it's not cool to leave after one hour.

I'm saying Do what you planned to do, and make no adjustments for your wife, unless she calls. Then figure it out fairly.

That's the difference between a boundary (which is for YOUR sake-ie. you not switching around your day for her mind changing)

versus punishing her by hiding or leaving early, which is to hurt her. See?

I know you see her as taking advantage and yet you wonder about being nice to her or "Firm" or cold...

Here's something I went through but I stipulate, we were married at the time. My point is about doing what works.

When my h would work late, (usually voluntarily), sometimes it was b/c he said we needed the money and to him, we did. I did not feel the same and he missed A LOT of our children's lives, but sometimes he worked late to impress his colleagues, or b/c he wanted to do a new procedure. I raised the kids largely on my own for chunks of time.

When he'd get home I did not want or feel like opening my arms to him b/c I thought that would "teach" him to keep working late.

That if I acted "as if all was well", and did not "punish" him in some way, he'd "keep taking advantage of us" or taking us for granted, not coming home earlier, etc.

Maybe I was "right"....maybe not.

Let's say, for the moment, that I was right...So, did my approach work?


NO!!

Emphatically, IT did not work! Which means I needed a new approach!

So Instead, what if I'd rushed to meet him w/the kids running at him yelling "Daddy's home, Daddy's home!!"?

What if I welcomed him to a warm loving home? What if I gave him a home he'd WANT TO COME HOME TO??

What might have changed for us, and so much sooner?

I was a slow learned Arsene...trust me, I feel for you.

As for the housework and maid, I didn't know you had a maid. I commented on how little you did b/c you said it was a "180 for you to do all the housework and laundry" so I assumed she had been doing that. Did you fire the maid? Too pricey?

I don't think you were "wrong" to invite your w b/c you were stuck w/an unexpected amount of time together. Far better to DO SOMETHING, especially something NEW AND FUN as A FAMILY

b/c that's GAL and it's new and different and that is what your w needs to know can happen.

Not like you took her out to a romantic dinner. I think you made a great choice, given the circumstances.

Now back off. And good for you to go out that night!

Thanks 25. I see your point about offering W a warm loving home, making W "want" to be with me as opposed to making her feel guilty/punishing her so that eventually, she just won't want to be around.

You were also right the other day about my ego being wounded and I have to remind myself whether I want to be right or married. The answer is I do want to be married and being right is not so important anymore.

Re: the maid, we don't have a home yet but as soon as we do (me and D8) I will be hiring one. In fact, we'll be moving in at the end of the month and I'm hoping to get the lady who was around when D8 was between 3 and 5. There is a bond between them and that would be good for D8. Besides, my W approves of her and I think that it is important since once I start working, the maid will spend a lot of time with D8 (and W when she is around).

BTW, I understand what you said about venting. Sometimes I re-read my thread and am ashamed of what i wrote and how I felt about W. Do not worry, I will not end up in the metaphoric drain.

I'm learning, step by step. Thanks for your patience and understanding 25. I really appreciate it.

W just left. We had a pleasant day. I tried to do my own stuff while W and D8 hung out together but we were still together quite a bit (difficult not to in this boarding house). W came in the room at dinner time to ask if I would join them for dinner and I did. There was another "guest" from the boarding house at the table so it's not like we were just the 3 of us anyway.

I managed to keep my PMA the whole time and not to get too involved in convos with W. We had a few laughs and a few light convos but nothing major. At one point W mentioned that she was considering going to the meditation classes I'm on. She said that she was reading the book I lent her last night and she agrees with the ideology, she says she might like to give it a try. I didn't say anything about it. Just that I found it interesting.

Before she left, we talked a bit about D8's attitude. She's been having tantrums and she's always very grumpy and difficult to handle at times. We both agreed that D8 was going through trying and confusing times. I guess it's a bit of a step up from simply saying that D8 is fine with this situation.

I've been on a bit of a high for the last few days and now, I feel like I'm coming down. It's not a good feeling. I wonder if she feels this as well, sometimes.

I just had a chat with a friend last night, the kind of friends who think I should move on, that thinks that W went too far and that she's probably deep in love with OM and that to stand, isn't going to help.

She said that when women leave, they don't come back. I don't want to believe in what she said but I guess she planted the seed of doubt in my mind.

I know that it doesn't change anything in what I want/need to do and that I'll carry on GALing and 180ing as well as working hard at getting the best home and life for me and D8, but it affected my PMA. What if she is in love? Didn't I think she was anyway? There are signs all around. What if I'm underestimating him? Maybe he's a great guy? After all, the woman I love and respect has actually chosen to be with him. That's the same woman who then chose to marry me. What if he's a great guy? Why would she leave him for me, even if i change. I let her down once, I might do it again, in her mind. Besides, I'm raising her child, quite well. I'm safe. She doesn't need to give me love. I'm doing these things for my D8. I'd like to hear from WAW or MLC wives who were emotionally involved with OM and who eventually went back home.

What was their state of mind? How did they come to the conclusion that home was the better choice? Did something trigger it?

I'm losing hope. It might just be a bad day. The bad day which usually follows the good ones. Nonetheless, I'd still like the perspective of a WAW who returned.

OK. Enough!!! I need to cheer myself up!!

A nice day to all!

Look around this site. You'll find alot of them.

But bottom line is that you can't compare yourself to OM. You're you.

Arsene you asked and answered your own question in your post. Let's take a look.




Cheer up, stand up, dust yourself off and take a step forward...

you are moving forward. That's a good thing.

Thanks again 25. You are right, I seem to be going up and down faster and more often than a highrise elevator.

Get what you can from the friendship but support in standing, isn't coming from this woman...and btw, if your w were discussing the m with some OM who told her not to stand, how would you feel? Think hard about that one.

yes, I realise that and I've learnt my lesson. About my W, it's to total opposite from what she says. Everyone tells her she should come back. Sometimes I think this could actually hurt my sitch, but then again, nothing I can do about this so why worry?

Point is, some women leave and don't come back but there are women HERE who left and came back. It does happen. And I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried their exes, years later. So that happens too. (I read somewhere here, that 15% of couples re-marry but I don't know the source of that data.)

Yes. I know. I'm sure it does happen and I thank you for pointing this out. Someone said (I think it was Jack3b) that if there was 1 chance in 10,000,000, that's the one he'd go for. I just have to remind myself of that.

THIS^^^ IS your answer. Focus on keeping that up. I for one, think women are very moved by how their children interact with their dads. That's something that will be weird with a "blended" family, if she can even conceive of that with OM, there...

so stay on your path. This possibility has always existed. You could also become a great guy and reconcile and then your wife could get hit by a bus and die. So then, would your changes have been "wasted"?

Yes, I know. Again, I need to keep it in mind when I get on the self-pity wagon. I have also thought about the "get hit by a bus and die" possibility and no, my changes are really for me. That is a certainty and I don't question them at all. I would not stop the path I'm on now no matter what. It's just that my hope gets the most of me sometimes and no matter what, right now, I want to get back with my W more than anything. The problem is that this probably shows and probably doesn't help my case. I need to learn to detach in order to protect myself from these thoughts. Ironically, this is what this particular thread was/is about. Detaching lovingly.

the only thing ^^^ here that YOU can control is that last highlighted line.

Don't let her down again. OR your d. And understand, this IS her fear. That you will revert if she returns. You nailed it.

But I have a hard time believing she'd "never" reconsider, if your changes are real and lasting. Not "tactics" to get her back, but genuinely made realizations, leading to changes in behavior and thought processes.

And expressions of love, when the time comes.

Yes. And that is why time is a gift. I realise everyday how no matter how sometimes i think I have changed, there is still a lot of the old me inside. I have to re-write my code, change my habits and habitual responses to situations, and that will take time. I do not want to let her down again if i am given another chance. Of that I am sure. Thanks for you kind, encouraging words.

What does that mean? YOU are raising HER Child? INteresting wording...and since she has more legal rights, seems to me If anything, she can treat you a lot worse than she has been, and yet she's not.

So, what are you saying here?^^

That's me judging her and mind-reading again. I'm helping her raise our child is what it is, really. And I'm not doing it for her. I'm doing it for me and for D8. It's just me (and my frustration)saying that she doesn't seem to really want to raise D8 right now and I feel like the "sucker" who does all the work while she gets her rocks off. Not nice, not true, not productive or even remotely helpful. I hope to write less and less of these wasteful thoughts as the days come and go, but I guess there is still a lot of pain and anger which I need to process. And you always spot these and point them out to me. Thanks for the mirror.

I'll have a look for "Jamie" and "Faithfulhusband" to see if I can find something to give me hope when I feel this way. I've been trying to get through Denver's story but it's a long one, if inspiring and helpful.

You are looking for THE answer. There is no secret to this.

Sorry. If we knew "IT", we'd have made a fortune, or we'd have told the world.

IT's a process, a series of steps, not one trigger to return, (though there definitely can be single triggers to leaving)

Yup. I know. Again just me looking for a shortcut but I know there isn't one. I know it'll take time and I know I can use this time well to make sure that I increase my chance at a happy life, with or without W (preferably with).


I'd veer off those who say their wives returned only after they "showed them a thing or two" (Or are Dobson followers -which is NOT a DB approach) but who only hear his "tough love" sessions and nothing about their own role.

Dobson can be punitive but what fascinates me is that he DOES say "own YOUR stuff" but almost every LBSer who takes that route only hears the part about "teaching the WAS a lesson" and they call it setting a boundary. IT's punitive. They forget all the stuff about their own work and if they can point to a OM/OW, they have NO interest in their own self improvement.

Yes, I agree. I've just finished "Love must be tough" one of the two books I managed to order(the other being DR) and although I can see the value of some of the advice, I also felt it was a bit extreme and a bit too "preachy" for my taste. The LRT or afterLRT of DB is much softer (if similar) and the intent is what makes it more palatable for me. I now wish I'd spend my money on another book but not sure what I need for the time being.

I'll also be looking for "Keep Going". She sounds like an extraordinary woman whose story might help me get back to my backbone.


I like you Arsene. But your patience in this is upsetting b/c you know that it is an issue of yours (impatience) in the marriage and you need to apply it NOW

Stop letting a day or two go by without an encouraging pat on the back and thinking you have to give up. Stretch that time line big time.

Yes, yes, yes!!! You are right! Right now, I've been struggling with the lack of friends in this city. The lack of network. The timing of this really bites. I have no work, no money, very few friends (and because of the holy month of Ramadan they are not around), no home (till the end of the month) and very little opportunity to GAL properly. I'm certain that once we move on with normal everyday life (once the Ramadan/Idul Fitri holiday is over - pool halls, pubs, gyms, swimming pools are closed!!!)and I start working there will be more opportunities to meet people and GAL. This will help me tremendously I'm sure.

Besides, what is giving up? What would it look like? Less time with your d?
Leaving the country?

Other than not dating OW, for now, what is it you are doing "to stand for the m", that you would not be doing anyhow, for you and your d?

Yup. I hear you.


Veer away from punitive types who think shaming your w home will lead to happiness for anyone. Maybe a brief power play but if you divorce, SHE gets your d...
And I think you know the sounds you need to hear and the ones you have to turn off. There are no guarantees here Arsene, except one.

You do control you. So if you make the changes you want and need to make, and become the best man you can be, you will have to leave the results up to the Big Guy, and let it go, while keeping your changes-for you.

Thanks. You must feel like you've told me this a thousand times, and that's because you probably have. I'm a slow student . I'll keep it in mind. Hell, I'll get it tattooed on the back of my hand if I have to. Thanks for your time 25.