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guys - thanks for all the wonderful replies - i don't know if they are as well-deserved as you make them out to be.

i am shitting bricks here - the castle walls are more than cracking - i think they are tumbling down -for me, for h for the whole family


it's like i don't get 24 hrs to catch my breath!!

mil just told me that h talked with her this morning - pretty calmly and basically told her that it was almost over with ow. that ow was really upset and freaking, and she said that he didn't seem to be all that upset himself.

that this trip of hers was not postponed to a later date - he said that he knew he didn't want her coming up here - for the next few months and definitely not while he was living at their house which is at least until december. that basically he had realized that son and his family were more important to him.

i had called because my friend had pointed out to me that there was a very high chance that SIL's girlfriends' little 6 yr old (who h and ow babysat back in march) , could easily let the info about the affair come out to s while they were playing next week.

why did this come up? because s told me yesterday that SIL had called him and told him all about them coming (a few weeks ago) and he was really pumped up about meeting them.

she also told him that h was the only one who had met them, and h had baby sat her.

i called mil to say that i was very concerned that s may find out this way and that's when she told me about h and ow. then she started getting really mad - an twisting stuff i was saying. i stayed really calm and made sure she understood what i was saying. but i really think that her own sh!t started coming up and but by the end of the conversation mil wass f'ing freaking out and started crying and screaming at me that why are you dumping this all on me and then got off the phone after announcing that over her dead body was son going to find out about this in this horrible way and was going to ask both sil and h what the hell they were thinking. we also agreed that i would take s away if necessary - but first she was going to find out from sil whether this kid even remembered all of that trip or talked about it.


aaargh - i think i have to face some part of myself here - i should be the one calling and talking to h honestly about this - i'm too scared to. i even admitted to mil that i was calling to ask her to deal with this because i wanted to stay in the position of being the one not applying any pressure on h right now.

but that is sick - at the expense of my son.

i can't figure out if this is my [censored] to deal with directly or mil's. i have woken up this morning overwhelmed with the fact that i have lied to my s to protect H? for almost a year now. in fact all of us have jumped hoops to keep this a secret and i am sick to my stomach at having had to live like this. i think my intention was that the info would only hurt s terribly - but how much more is is going to hurt if he finds out that all of us lied - ALL OF US?

on top of all that - last night s basically told me that he and i needed to move halfway across the country to that island off Seattle where he visited his friend in march. he basically said he wanted to move there because h had left. i also think he was trying to tell me that he didn't want to live in that house that h is building right now.

i'm trying to stay still - all i can see right now is my son - and how this could hurt him even much more than i thought it would. knowing about the affair is not the issue here. the issue is finding out that all the people who you adore have lied to you.

and the saddest thing - mil and fil lived like that with their children h and sil - and i think that the reason that mil is freaking right now is deep down she knows that that way of functioning just passed on to their kids

my dilemma, in a way here is - how much do i support their lies? how much do i support their wiggling out of the situations they create?

NOT for myself - but for my sons sake..

it's coming full circle, you know? but i'm not in the middle of the circle, so much as on the outside of it looking at the noose tightening.

i think i just opened mil's Pandora's Box...

need to find the zig moment in all of this

i could really use some help here, guys - maybe there's something i wrote here that stands out and you can give me some perspective. it's time for me to find out whether i can practice the real values that i believe in and stand against the crowd? idk

thanks

zig

What is your number one fear here? There's a lot of extraneous people and there stuff but how much of it belongs to you?

How likely is it the the 6 yr old knows enough of what's going on to tell your S anything that would turn his life upside down?

ok, zig... what happened, happened...

I think what's important to take out of this is...

While H said those things to his mom... he COULD have said them, to you...

He did not... he had his reasons... and those reasons were important and right, for him... but he did not tell you...

In the mean time, your SIL involved herself in something that was none of her business. Of course, regardless of whether she liked any of the stuff that your H was doing, she had accepted it and so appears to have been operating under the understanding that OW was a fixture in H's life. Her assumption that OW was going to be part of your S's life was understandable. So she had her reasons, and they made sense to her...

As for your MIL... I'll get to her in a sec...

Your S... Well, the harsh reality is, if OW were to be a permanent fixture in your H's life... S would have to learn about her, eventually...

Protecting your S from (what might be) the reality of her was out of your control, regardless. It would need to happen, at some point.

I completely agree with sheltering the children from any OP until and unless the OP is a permanent part of their parent's life.

What appears to be the reality of it is, your H and at least his sister were operating out of what they believe WAS reality... the OW was a permanent part of your H's life.

What does appear to be the case is, you were really operating under the desired belief that OW was not permanent. Perhaps under the hidden belief that your H and you would resolve things. And so... understandably... protecting your S...

Thing is... I knew my dad had an A. I was probably 6 at the time it happened. It came out in arguments my parents would have. My mom would mention it to us when she was drunk over the next number of years. It is what it is...

Did it "harm" me? Probably. Maybe... IDK... My sitch is different than your S's sitch...

But kids are smart... if he didn't hear about it from his cousin, he may have heard about it from someone else... he may have put two and two together on his own... I know my kids certainly have some idea about what my W's OM/EAs represent, to her... nothing I could do about that... a moral clause in a S or D only hold until the spouse and OP out themselves and make things "permanent"...

With D rates the way they are... really... is ANY R permanent?

NOW, without a shadow of a doubt... is time for zig to be still...

As you say, step outside the circle and remove yourself from what ever fallout might come of this.

You are working yourself up for an unknown future outcome.

What appears to be unfortunate is... your H may have come to his senses... a little late to the party...

and now... his house of cards could be falling down, around him...

and that's not yours to own...

and life isn't magic... it doesn't often give people "happily ever afters"... that's probably a good thing... a "right" thing... a natural thing...

Could it get ugly? Sure...

WILL IT...? No one knows...

The harsh reality is, you had a convo with your mil... you mentioned some stuff that, from what you knew, was reality... your mil told you some stuff that, was different than your reality... and your mil... has now taken ownership of something that isn't her's to own...

Your responsibility...? What can you take of what you COULD control, out of this? What did you own that you shouldn't have? What SHOULD you own, that you aren't?

And...

just...

move...

forward...

Here's something to play out in your mind... it's the only future you CAN control...

IF... your H talks to you about the convo you had with mil...

what might you say...?

labug, KD - you have both asked me some tough questions, that i don't think i can answer right away.

i have spent most of the last 3 hrs trying to separate out what is mine to carry and what is there's to carry. i am not sure of the answer yet

right now my brief answer is that i don't have to act on this.

my longer one - mightt sound a bit "convoluted" - i am still wading through the muck here

i did act on it by talking with mil and she did call me back after i posted to say she had talked to sil, who says she will not support her brother's lies to s. she didn't know h had lied to s about where he was. she also said that she could not guarantee whether the 6 yr old would say or not say something.

mil also said she freaked not because of what i said to her, but because she is under a huge amt. of pressure at work this week and i just tipped her over. she also said she wasn't going to support all these lies any longer, and it was up to me to deal with this with h directly to decide what is the right thing to do for s. her suggestions were: get h to tell sil that gf and little girl can't come, take s out of the situation entirely and bring him to my house, or come clean with s about the lies and ow.

she said that sil told her to ask me to call sil, which i haven't done yet and don't know if i will.

I did not create this situation directly.

What i did do, along with mil and others is support it by carrying on and supporting the lies to s.

You pointed out the difference brilliantly KD

What appears to be the reality of it is, your H and at least his sister were operating out of what they believe WAS reality... the OW was a permanent part of your H's life.

What does appear to be the case is, you were really operating under the desired belief that OW was not permanent. Perhaps under the hidden belief that your H and you would resolve things. And so... understandably... protecting your S...


the second - how i was operating - is exactly how mil was operating - that if he changed his mind, s didn't need to know and be hurt about it. (i cannot help thinking that this comes from her own stuff - she still doesn't dare tell h that she was the one who had the affair, not his dad - his dad's affairs came much later)

she and i literally formed a tight little group in ensuring that s wouldn't know - because that was what h wanted and we both hoped that the affair would end and s didn't need to know - also, he was petrified of s finding out. i know he still is.

and now i've suddenly understood why - h has always talked about how stupid his father is - and i think what was really going on was that he felt disgusted by what his father has done with his affairs over the years. and he knows how he views his father in a negative light - and his fear has been that s would view him in that negative light also.

and i have enabled that. why was i so protective about s not finding out? coupled with my own feelings of shame that i have worked through now, and incidentally lost my own fears about - i feel as if i am standing apart just seeing - oh my , look at how i acted in all this too.

what is my present fear? the shame of s finding out that i lied to him? is it only that, or something behind that? i'm waiting to see what emerges

am i still protecting h? and why?

is s's well-being less important than protecting h and i getting back together

I hope i have made it clear, that i am not as much concerned about s finding out that there is an affair and ow, as much as I am concerned about the effect of him finding out how I/we blatantly lied to him.

So which part of this is under my own control?

obviously, whether i continue to participate in the lies or not.

if i choose not to:

do i decide on my own, regardless of h's feeling in this to talk to s and apologize to s.
do i discuss this with h, take his feelings into consideration about what he does or doesn't want s to know. mil pointed out that now that things are possibly over with ow, h may want to not tell s about this at all. Is that my concern? aren't i still left with the fact that i am still lying to s?

IF... your H talks to you about the convo you had with mil...

what might you say...?

well - tough question - mil is terrified that h may find out that she and i talk. he has no idea.

your question implies that i would wait until H initiates a conversation about this.

there's another pattern - mil and i take it on ourselves to "fix" the situation and leave fil and h entirely out of it. bad choice on my part to function this way in the family. (i see the pattern form my own family now suddenly of my mother functioning like that too)

so my big question! do i initiate a conversation about this with h and we decide together what is the best thing for s?
or do i stay still and let this work itself out, and if s finds out , he finds out and then we deal with the outcome

how much do i have to protect s in this? is it even my job - am i trying to control something that doesn't need to be controlled?

okay - slight spinning here - so am going to go meditate

keep the questions coming, please - i want to get to the bottom of this - my role in it, by deeper beliefs and my fears.

labug - your question needs more time to answer - if anything is making me spin, it's not what is going on with all of them, but me having to face something deeper - i can sense it's there, but my mind is not relaxed enough to reach for it all at once


thank you - both of you

zig

Well done, zig!

I actually believe I personally have really no more questions for you, at this time. You're working through a lot of really important, valid, relevant and good stuff.

I'll just say this...

You can not unknow something. You can't control information that you do or do not get, when you get it, how you get it, the context that you get it...

It just is... what it is...

and you cannot unknow it...

You get to decide your responsibility. Maybe it should be more, maybe it should be less. What ever you decide to own as yours, is your choice.

Just be responsible for what ever you do... what ever you did... in the past... in the now... in the future...

Own what is yours. Be responsible. Live in your own personal morals and ethics and act accordingly.

And what ever follows... is what follows...

aah KD - here i was getting comfortable in the knowledge that hey KD is here to walk me through this. he'll keep asking me questions and i'll get the easy way out..

but alas - it's down to the wire on this one for me isn't it?

i have to find the questions, let alone the answers.

I think that the question that emerges now is:

When the effect of what several people do, intentionally or unintentionally together, and one little person is affected, does one TOGETHER find the solution or does one take it on oneself to repair the damage that may have been done from their part in it?


If I were to go ahead and let s know and not lie to him any longer - I have to give him information that doesn't really belong to me - h's actions. i don't know if that's the right way to put it - it's more that I know that h doesn't want s to know - yet, or ever

MWD talks a lot about not shaming the spouse. I KNOW that h is ashamed in sons' eyes as well as in his grandparents eyes.

so telling s this would be exposing h to a person that i know h does not want to be exposed to.

right now, i feel that i don't have anything left to lose in this relationship. as far as i know (and i agree with you that he has told mil, not ME) he has just told me last friday that even if it doesn't work out with ow he still wants to file.

so if i were really honest - exposing h shouldn't be a problem now. but where does one draw the line with other peoples' information. or is it mine also?

i feel in a way i have been influenced by fill's words in this. months ago when he, mil and i were talking about the period during which he moved out after mil's affair, i asked them why he told h about all his affairs (he came over one day years ago and "confessed it to h) but not about what mil did.

he replied - i always felt that it was mil's choice to let our children know about that - it was what she did, i only will talk about what i did.

i know this seems insignificant. but h told me during those first months that his father was an idiot for coming back that time - that his father had the affair and should have just ended the marriage then - he always assumed and still does that it was his father , not his mother.

what i'm finding here, is that not only have i enabled h , but also mil in a big way. she has repeatedly made me swear that I will never tell h about her affair. i think she is not only trying to protect herself, but also h in s not knowing about this.

so once again - this is their info, but to come clean with s , i have to reveal it in some way?

it's an ethical and moral dilemma that is larger than the simple fact of s finding out about the affair.

i noticed this afternoon, that mil wanted the solution to be that the gf and daughter do not come at all. her main suggestion was that h would have to tell sil that they can't come, period. that she was stepping back out of this .

i thought that was very interesting. not the suggestion that she could come clean, or i, or ask that of h or sil. i was the one who suggested that h and i could come clean to s. the first conversation she freaked, the second conversation when i said it she was quiet and said do whatever you want.

Lots going on and you have plenty of good input. My main thought is that, first of all, it's not yours to tell S. Secondly, IMO, kids may know a lot, but they really shouldn't have to think about the gory details of their parents' relationship(s). Note that H was an adult when FIL told him. There's plenty of information that is appropriate to withhold. The challenge is figuring out the line.

Just curious whether H feels betrayed by others not having told him what FIL did?

You probably "lied" to S about Santa, too. And it probably didn't leave scars of betrayal. Not exactly the same, but still...

Personally, I am careful not to do anything to enhance anyone's awareness about their parents' affairs. Especially kids, but even adults. They don't need to know, and certainly not from me.

My dear zig... you are practically a vet here, now... you are in the advanced course and need to formulate your own questions...

And we will guide you according to your choices...



You are looking at this from a perspective of protecting...

fear...

Rather than from a position of responsibility...

support...

You need to neither protect your H nor your S...

You need to support your S... IF he finds out... it is not yours to share. It is your H's to own.

Would you HELP your son or HURT your son if you told him?

Would you HELP your son or HURT your son if you withheld the knowledge?

Does a 10 year old need to know this information?

By telling him, rather than risking him hearing it "in the street", are you protecting your child?

Or rather...

No matter what happens... you will simply be there as a responsible parent, to support your S... no matter what happened... good or bad... in his life... regardless of it being THIS... or something else...

Are you protecting your S from all the other EVIL and HARM that could ever happen in his life, at least for the next 6 years?

If not, why not?

Why is THIS so important?

There... how's that for questions...?

Zig dear,

You have received so much insight from everyone here.

One thing I want to point out-yu mentioned the walls of the castle cracking. It's not YOUR home, YOUR world that is colapsing. Don't make it your crisis or problem to fix.

Come back to us. Lett's sit and sip on something for a while. You have been way to busy in your head.

I'm sending a message to serenity that she needs to hightail it back to you. I'm telling her to take her time bringing you back-you need to be still and float in the water for a moment. I'll get your towel ready.