LDwife: It depends upon what you mean by "caress", but I would have a hard time with this if my wife said you can caress me, but I just want to be caressed to sleep. If caress means that I am just tickling her back, or running my fingers through her hair, then okay. But if it is sexual caressing, e.g. touching breasts, inner thighs and/or butt, then forget it.... I can't get all jazzed up and then just turn it off if I hear snoring. I guess I'm assuming that you meant the first type of caressing.
Honeypot: I am verbal with him and do set boundaries. I have been trying my absolute best to stand in H's shoes and there's no way in hell his needs would or should be more important than mine. I would rather masterbate than "rape" someone I love, married or not.
Hairdog: I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. By "caress", I mean stroking hair, rubbing and tickling the back, arms, outer thighs. I would have a hard time being told that my spouse wanted to be caressed (foreplay style) to sleep too! H will offer to rub my back or he'll simply hold me close and start caressing me. I've told him so many times that it feels nice or good, and that I'm really tired and just want to go to sleep. I've fallen asleep many times and have woken to him aggressively caressing me (foreplay style); feeling me up; orally on my genitals or breasts; ML from behind; anal; you name it!
The reason why this is such a sore spot for me is because of the fact that H seems to have it in his mind that being intimate in or out of bed must result in ML later on. He will do something for me like wash the dishes or bathe the kids, or bring home flowers but it's always for a reward... not just because! Years of this behaviour has made me feel like his sex object. He's a good father and provides for us, but I don't feel loved; I feel lonely, misunderstood and exploited.
I really appreciate all of your comments. Thank you so much - if I come across as too defensive, please let me know... I'm looking for all feedback.
LD: I never said that his needs were more important than yours. Actually no one person's needs are greater than the others in marriage.
This is the first time that you have really spelled out what exactly he does to you. We are not in your home and couldn't get a grasp of what kinds of things you were talking about and whether there was any possibility of him misinterpreting etc. I'm sorry that you felt that I was defending him. This last message sent a chill up my spine. This behavior is so disgusting that I don't even know what to say. I really think that this man needs sexual therapy ASAP. There is NO excuse for what he is doing.
Having said that, my H has fondled me more times than I could count while I was sleeping. He knows that I do not mind being woken up for sex. However, all I would have to do is say once that I didn't like it and I don't want him doing it again, and it would stop. For some reason your man has no respect for you as a woman and his wife. I hope you two can address that immediately and get to the bottom of it.
Honeypot: I know you didn't, I did. That is the problem... I can't get over the fact that he must think his needs are more important than mine, and that really hurts. I never felt you were defending him Honey, it seemed like CeMar was.
H and I are seeing a sex therapist; same therapist but seperate appointments. He is to read Divorce Busting and Allies In Healing, and I am to read Courage to Heal. I'm waiting for them to be available at my library.
My plea for support or advice was due to the fact that I need to come to grips with the fact that H doesn't or hasn't respected me as a woman/wife! At this point I'm really not sure if this damage is repairable. I'm afraid that all the therapy in the world won't ever be enough for me to genuinely "want" my H again. It's as if our relationship has been platonic for me for years... it's like subconciously I fell out of love with him shortly after we married. Why the hell did I choose to block it out and have children with him?
I am not defending him, I am defending what I thought was possible happening. I have been in various intimate acts with the wife and then she fell asleep and I did not know it. I ave also woken my wife a few times by gentle caressing. But I would NEVER condone sex when you KNOW the woman is asleep, especially after they tell you not to do it. If I had read all your posts I would have gathered he was INTENTIONALLY causing you distress, and that is wrong. Sorry, if it seemed I was defending the guy.
Now if my wife wants to wake me up with sex, I think I'd go out and buy her a dozen roses.
Hi LDwife. I've been following your story and I just HAVE to let you know how much I admire your courage, comittment, willingness and detirmination. Have no doubts, you ARE an amazing and wonderful woman!! (Cheers, Salutes)
Ch
Quote: My plea for support or advice was due to the fact that I need to come to grips with the fact that H doesn't or hasn't respected me as a woman/wife! At this point I'm really not sure if this damage is repairable. I'm afraid that all the therapy in the world won't ever be enough for me to genuinely "want" my H again. It's as if our relationship has been platonic for me for years... it's like subconciously I fell out of love with him shortly after we married. Why the hell did I choose to block it out and have children with him?
I've had extensive experience in the forgiveness department and overall think I'm getting pretty good at it. I've also learned to love my H and welcome his touch, when after a betrayel left me devistated emotionally bankrupt, numb, angry and so completely disconected from my H that his touch made my skin crawl and my tummy nauseas. So here's my best advice and things that have worked for me.
First, understand the true nature of forgiveness. It does NOT mean to forget as if it never happened or to condone or somehow beleive that the offense was ok, not that bad, doesn't matter. What happened ISN'T OK, DOES MATTER, and WAS that BAD! Forgiveness is peace, when you can act as you wish rather than continually reacting to the trauma. Forgiveness is NOT trust. You can forgive someone for stealing from you, but be reasonable and still lock things up because you don't trust them. Trust is earned, forgiveness is a choice and a gift. Forgiveness is a gift to yourself, it eases turmoil and strife. Forgiveness does NOT equal blindness. Forgiveness is patient. Forgiveness is understanding, forgiveness is supportive, NOT enableing.
Now for some specifics. Yes, from what I've read, I think you have a really good chance of forgiving your H and both of you ending up with a deeply satisfying, fullfilling, happy healthy marriage. It won't be easy, it won't be quick. Every marriage has some tender hot spots that never do get resolved or go away, they simply get managed and worked around, night love may be that for you. I do think there are points of no return, I don't think you are there yet, I think there is hope, and you won't know until... and untill will take active time effort on both your parts.
Forgive and love are verbs, this means action, active, they are a choice. It's also a process, some of which is under our control, some isn't. I firmly and unequivically believe this. So what I did was first Decide to love and forgive my H, no matter how pissy I felt, or how much I wanted to destroy. I had to make the consious decision to build, nurture and grow, and to accept/expect setbacks, and be willing to slog through even when I wasn't. No, it's not easy, but it does get easier.
Next I had to accept my feelings and alow myself to feel. Numb was/is a nice safe addictive place, but not conducive to heal. Feelings are, they are not right or wrong, they simply exist, it's how I act, react, don't act, on those feelings that determines right and wrong. Learn healthy and safe ways to express and acknowlege those feelings, journal, talk to your shrink, vent here, tear paper, exercise, hit pillows, run. I had to learn major self control and instal a filter between my brain and mouth. (it's still pretty weak and fails often but is gettng better) Learn from your feelings, ask yourself questions, what am i feeling, what need isn't getting met, how can I meet it, why am I feeling this way, what can I learn from this. My mantra was do I want to be right or do I want to be happy. What is working, what doesn't work. I've learned that as much as I may need to emotionally storm, hail, beat on my husband, it just doesn't Work. He shuts down and I dangerously escolate. I had to learn to sooth myself and give my H the tools to sooth me too. I had to analyze why I felt attracted or repulsed by my H, what specifically were triggers.
I had to get very clear about what I wanted and use that info for when I would self sabotage. I had to get very clear that I DESERVED what I wanted, and that it was possible or at least I wouldn't know it WASN'T possible until i'd exhausted all avenues, including the ones I didn't want to do, or seemed doubtful. I also Knew alot of stuff but was lacking severly in the application of such knowlege.
Understand that even though your H loves you and finally gets the gravity of the situation, he still may backslide. Change is hard and he has 6 yrs of habit and inertia driving him. Just as you have the years of trauma blocking you. You are the most desirable morsel and he is severely dieting and starving. Baby Baby Baby steps. You can probably figure out from the last episode, how long it will at least take you to get to that happy spot. Let him know that last time it took you X amount of time and these actions to get you to the point of warming up to and wanting and accepting him. This time it will take minimly that long and more since now you also have the new emotional wounds to heal from on top of the existing problem. I heal in layers.
Homework, get a notebook, write down everything wonderful about H, write down every scrap of info you have about what makes you fall in love, what makes you feel loved, what connects you to H or to anyone. colors scents phrases words actions. Learn your love languages, pay attention to detail. embrace the good.
Use the rule of 5, it takes 5 positives to equal a negative in compliments, feelings, words. I can literally feel the diference in me emotionally and physiologically between the 3rd and 5th intentional I love you's from my H.
I ramble so, hopefuly something helps, I can get more specific and give specific examples from my life. I have lots and lots more to share, wish there was some way I could give you all my hard won not easily expressed knowlege and ideas and theories. You know you best and what you can or can't do. My heart aches for you, may you heal and find peace and joy.
CeMar: Thank you for understanding. H couldn't agree with you more on the waking HIM up with sex! I believe I have in fact received roses the next day before.
Quote: My mantra was do I want to be right or do I want to be happy. I had to get very clear about what I wanted and use that info for when I would self sabotage. I had to get very clear that I DESERVED what I wanted, and that it was possible or at least I wouldn't know it WASN'T possible until i'd exhausted all avenues, including the ones I didn't want to do, or seemed doubtful.
Morninglory: Wow! Thank you for your empathy and positive attitude. I do understand the true nature of forgiveness, I just used the title generically for this thread. I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse, so I know, trust me! It's not so much that I was seeking help with forgiving H... I think I was looking to see what others thought of his behaviour and if THEY'd be able to accept it, and go on.
I’m having a very difficult time trying to figure out how I feel right now. Last week, I felt dead, numb, helpless and hopeless. Since Friday, I’ve been feeling angry and regretful. The Courage to Heal and Allies In Healing were ready for pickup at the library, so I went and retrieved them while H stayed home with the kids. On Saturday, H told me that upon our therapist's advice, he was giving me total control over our sex life. This angered me. I listened to him half dazed, half fuming. I asked him why he couldn’t do that when I asked numerous times over the years and why it took a therapist to tell him what I needed. He didn’t have an answer. We went out for our date and I tried to act as if we weren’t married and just dating. I reached for his hand while we walked outside, but that was the only contact I wanted.
I made some realizations. My knight in shining armour showed his true colours shortly after his marriage proposal. I married him because everyone, including me, thought he was a wonderful man. He treated me like his Queen; he didn’t drink or do drugs; he didn’t go out with the boys; he wanted to spend any free time with me; he wanted to be a family man and devoted husband; he wanted to be my best friend; he was a hardworker. He was the boy nextdoor, without a nasty past. He was innocent and pure. He was worthy of my full love. I completely trusted him. I knew he would be a loving husband and a doting father. He would be a father that our children could go to and feel safe and loved with. He would take care of me and always love me.
Were all of the above characteristics so important to me that I could ignore the fact that he didn’t respect me? Was it the fact that he seemed to respect everything about me except for when we were in the privacy of our bedroom, and I would be fast asleep beside the man I love and trust and feel so happily secure with? This is extremely hard to deal with. My husband has been sexually abusing me since I accepted the role of his wife. Something I wanted to be all my life. I so wanted to be a loving wife and mother. I think I had done an exceptional job of accepting my past abuses and was getting on with my life. I believe that H’s refusal to be rejected is the cause of my sexual aversion. I know what a healthy relationship is. I had one with my knight in shining armour, until he turned out to be less than perfect. It’s as if for the past several years, I’ve gone ahead with things as I had planned and chose to ignore his abuse. I planned my pregnancies and welcomed the control that maternity allows. I used the excuses of being afraid to hurt the babies, being too tired to have sex, etc. to the best of my advantage. Once there were no more excuses, I had to look at myself and [censored] or get off the pot.
So, what do I do now? Do I accept this less than perfect man and try to help him? All the while hoping and praying that he does not abuse our DD or myself again? Am I supposed to ignore the fact that I now wonder why he takes his time with bathing or changing DD? Am I to dismiss my gut feeling that when he’s applied cream on her genitals, ever so gently and slowly that he was just being a good father or is he sick? I could not live with myself or forgive myself if DD comes up to me later on and tells me how daddy did something to her.
I think the only chance he has of winning my trust and love back is to earn it all back from scratch. We need to live in separate dwellings and have scheduled time together.
Your advice and homework are very helpful and sound. Thank you so much.
Quote: Were all of the above characteristics so important to me that I could ignore the fact that he didn’t respect me? Was it the fact that he seemed to respect everything about me except for when we were in the privacy of our bedroom, and I would be fast asleep beside the man I love and trust and feel so happily secure with? This is extremely hard to deal with. My husband has been sexually abusing me since I accepted the role of his wife.
LD - get a grip on yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can't you see what you are doing? Your history of molestation in childhood is causing you to view your H as a molester because he wants to make love to his wife??? Do you WANT to be stuck in a victim mode all your life? Wake up!
Pardon my bluntness here, I'm trying to help you see how screwed up your vision of your H is before you blow this marriage and screw up your kids lives. A man wanting to make love to his wife is NOT about him trying to "get something" for himself! It's about him wanting to connect and express his love to you. And yes, lots of H's will initiate in the middle of the night - he's awake, he wants you desperately, your attractive body is lying there next to him, he's lucky enough to be married to this goddess, he hopes you'll wake up when he starts initiating and say "ooh baby I want you too!".
You need to get rid of all the baggage and love your H the way he deserves to be loved. You need to quit "protecting" yourself from the person who loves you most and open up to him. And you need to deal with your low drive by just doing it even when you're not feeling particularly aroused. Focus on giving HIM pleasure. Because you love him and he's a good H and father. Because that's what people who love each other do for each other.
I suffered through a period of low drive due to health problems. I would be so exhausted at night that my H touvhing me seemed like just another person making a demand on me. If I felt like I wasn't going to be able to have an orgasm that night, why bother having sex? My poor H lived with this rejection for a long time, and the long-term effects of it almost destroyed my marriage. Believe me, you get clarity on some issues real fast when your H starts leaving you!
Now things are great between us, and one of the important areas of change is how I view our time in the bedroom. I am never too tired - if I know I won't be able to come, I focus on pleasuring him. I recognize his advances for what they truly are - expressions of his desire to get close to me. And having lost that once, I so treasure it now that he feels that way about me again.
Take it from an outside observer - you are making your H into the enemy - HE IS NOT! You are transferring your issues onto him and trying to drive him away - if you are not careful, you will suceed. Please don't let that happen.
Quote: LD - get a grip on yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't you see what you are doing? Your history of molestation in childhood is causing you to view your H as a molester because he wants to make love to his wife??? Do you WANT to be stuck in a victim mode all your life? Wake up!
I'm trying to help you see how screwed up your vision of your H is before you blow this marriage and screw up your kids lives. A man wanting to make love to his wife is NOT about him trying to "get something" for himself! he hopes you'll wake up when he starts initiating and say "ooh baby I want you too!".
Wow! I need to ask you a question. Did your H ever have sex with you after you said no? I don't buy that I've got some warped vision or confusion of my H. Like I said earlier, it's not as if I rejected him every time, but if I said no, that should have been respected. Does that change just because you get married and are monogamous??
Our relationship was perfect until the night he chose to have sex with me even though I had said no. It wore down each and every time he disrespected me. But I need to wake up and get a grip? Really?
LD, Let me ask you this. Do you welcome your H initiating and touching you during waking hours?
I am not attacking you. I am just curious. There has to be a time that he is welcome to touch you and a time that you are desirous of his touching you. If there isn't then the problems you have really aren't about the sleep sex, they are more along the lines of what the rest of us are experiencing--disparate drives.
