Quote: Yes, he is awake and I'm fast asleep when this happens. In the past, he's said that he can't help it. He's said that he's half asleep and didn't realize he was doing it. He's even said that he hoped he would turn me on and that I'd wake up and join in. He says he feels disgusted with himself now and that it just isn't like him to do such a thing to someone he loves. He tells me I'm everything to him and everything he ever wanted in a wife. He misses me and wants our intimacy back.
These are your own words. This is NOT the equivalent of someone holding you down and dateraping you - can't you see the difference? And can't you see how devastating it must be to your poor H to be treated as if he was doing something horrible when he's not?
My plea for support or advice was due to the fact that I need to come to grips with the fact that H doesn't or hasn't respected me as a woman/wife!
How does your H desperately wanting and needing to be with you translate into him not respecting you? Why are you so devoted to trying to drive him away that you not only reject him at every turn but ascribe the worst possible motivations to him? Your children deserve that you take a serious look at your part in this R, and I have to tell you, you are sounding like you have some very serious issues with your past that you are totally projecting onto your poor patient husband. Don't do this to the poor guy, okay? He doesn't deserve it.
Look, I'm not trying to bash you here, I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to protect you from feeling the horrible pain when the H you always figured would want you tells you he doesn't love you anymore and doesn't want to have sex with you anymore. It's hideous, and trust me, you don't want to end up there.
Your H is not your opponent. He loves you and is patient and motivated enough to go to counseling with you - many men would have given up years ago after being treated like this. Appreciate that. Quit attacking him. Tell him you are sorry for your part in this and that you want to work with him, not against him. Own up to your own responsibility in this.
You know, many of us have fears of abandonment. And when that fear gets too great, some of us respond by trying to drive our spouses away - after all, wouldn't that be less painful than being broadsided by abandonment? (Kind of like dumping a guy you're dating before he has a chance to dump you?) You really need to get to the bottom of why you are doing this to your H.
Honeypot: I did welcome and offer touching during waking hours before the reality hit me that for years he has in fact been raping me. I had always been affectionate. When I said I haven't touched him in years, I meant the way I used to caress his body in bed. I continued to show love outside of our bedroom.
Quote: I decided enough was enough last month and started seeing a therapist to figure out why I have such a LD and no desire to even try to initiate sex. Things were going well, and I was progressing! H and I had some excellent heart to hearts and he finally seemed to understand and really hear what I was saying. He apologized and even cried, vowing to never hurt me again. We agreed that I would initiate from now on until I was healed and could take his initiations in the proper context.
I was able to initiate twice in one week, which hadn't happened in years. For some reason, this triggered H to jump to the conclusion that I was "better" and reverted back to initiating. After a few nights of my rejections, he did what he vowed not to. Just as he's done numerous times over the years, he waited until I was asleep and then had sex with my limp, unwilling body. I woke up and was so devastated. I jumped out of bed and was shocked that he could be so selfish and totally erase what progress I had made.
I guess that is what I'm so hung up on. He apologized for his past actions and for never hearing my pleas to stop having sex with me after I said no. I tried to explain to him how bad it made me feel and how it was driving me away, but he chose not to hear it. No more than one week later, he did it once again!
Ellie: I have never claimed he holds me down and daterapes me. Yes, there is a huge difference! You're entitled to your opinion. After thinking about your post more, I realized that I HAVE woken up and gotten a grip... finally. I woke up a few weeks ago thank you very much. I was busy pretending my marriage was healthy and rationalizing his behaviour just as you are. Poor guy! I went to therapy thinking I was a horrible wife for having to force myself to have sex like a good wife... for having sex for his pleasure only. Wanting him to come as quickly as possible. I don't fear abandonment at all.
My H has initiated sex with me in my sleep after I had turned him down earlier - sure. Do I consider that rape? NO! Do I think you should go out and ask 100 people on the street if they would consider that rape before you destroy your marriage? YES!
Please, honey - I really wouldn't put all this effort into this exchange except that I can see where you are headed and there is so much pain ahead for you and your family if you don't get these crazy notions out of your head. Your H IS a good guy, who DOES love and respect you, and who is desperate for your affection. Why are you so eager to blame him and so reluctant to examine why you are doing this to your H and your marriage?
Spend some time reading the threads in the Newcomers section and feeling the pain of those spouses before you decide you want to go in that direction.
Quote: My H has initiated sex with me in my sleep after I had turned him down earlier - sure. Do I consider that rape? NO! Do I think you should go out and ask 100 people on the street if they would consider that rape before you destroy your marriage? YES!
*boggles*
First, I completely agree that the important issue is working on a relationship and figuring out if/how to mend things, and that having a difficult sexual history makes it harder to do that.
However, I don't see how it could *not* be rape. It's sex and it's definitely non-consensual, *especially* if the person doesn't want it even after they wake up - aren't aroused by the activity, if that's how their hormones work - and DEFINITELY if it's traumatic for the person. Personally, I don't think I would have had the patience to deal with it, and I have great respect for LDs willingness to keep trying despite that. *tips her hat to LDWife*
And after a brief discussion with a friend of mine in law school completely unconnected with this place who doesn't even know it exists, I found out that legally speaking, the majority of districts would deem such a situation spousal rape, with attempted rape the lesser charge.
I can be a bit extreme on my views about respecting women sometimes, but I just can't see how a man who respects his wife as a woman and a wife could possibly hear her tell him no and have sex with her anyway. *Especially* if she's had an experience that makes it more than uncomfortable, but also triggers traumatic memories. If she's okay with it, sure... maybe he thought he could arouse her by initiating... but if a woman, afterwards, tells her husband she doesn't want him having sex with her without her knowledge and consent, and he continues to try to have sex without her knowledge and consent *anyway*... There are problems there. I'm not saying on just one side, but there are *definitely* problems there when it comes to respect and trust. Completely aside from boundary respect issues, though definitely reflecting them.
That doesn't mean they can't be worked through if both sides are willing, and I definitely make no claims to be an expert... but dismissing that as "okay" and blaming it on one person's trauma seems a bit harsh to me, as a woman and a wife. /-:
I am turning in revolution
these are the scars that silence carved
on me
Quote: Yes, he is awake and I'm fast asleep when this happens. In the past, he's said that he can't help it. He's said that he's half asleep and didn't realize he was doing it. He's even said that he hoped he would turn me on and that I'd wake up and join in.
This is not rape. This is a loving husband who wants intimacy with his wife. Lots of people initiate sex in their sleep - check out the related thread on the sexual issues board.
Look - what worries me about this thread is this: LD has said that her H is in all other respects a great guy. That she started withdrawing from him sexually as soon as the marriage started. And now that she starts the process of counselling that might teach her how to be in a more intimate (and therefore more vulnerable) relationship with her H, she finds a reason to take the focus off of her very obvious problems and put the blame back on her H. I think it's obvious that she's terrified of a really good loving intimate R because then she would have to be more open and vulnerable.
LD: I can understand how his going back on his word affected you. Whether or not people agree with you that it is rape really doesn't matter. The fact is: You asked him to stop this behavior and he agreed to it, and then he broke your trust and went ahead and did it anyway.
You can forgive him for this. This is not the end of the road. Read the rest of this board; there are people here who have forgiven things that just boggles the mind. This is not a hopeless situation.
Now, having said that, I want to put a completely different type of thought in your head. Do you see that YOU also broke his trust? That your actions have broken him down into a person who has little sexual confidence, feels hopeless over the fact that his wife doesn't want him, and is emotionally devastated. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the lack of sex in your marriage is no big deal and hasn't taken a toll on him. The toll that it takes is SO HUGE that I couldn't begin to describe it.
So you both have made awful choices, with regards to your sex life. You went to therapy and had a nice week and, from the sound of your post, went right back to rejecting him. I am NOT condoning what he did to you after that, but I can see how he felt that it was all a big act and that your changes were not for real. I have been there with my own husband and I know how that feels.
So, I will leave you with one final question: Are you certain that your husband is awake when he does this? Is he fully aware that he is doing something that you asked him not to? And what did he say about the incident after therapy when he tearfully promised not to do that anymore? ok, so it was more than one question...:D
My H has initiated sex with me in my sleep after I had turned him down earlier - sure. Do I consider that rape? NO!
Ellie
First off, I think I only said "no" to ex-b once, and that was when I was really just too exhausted to even move. I know that if he's in the mood, I can get there too - and it's a win-win for both of us.
And in the middle of the night, your H might not even be fully awake and aware of his actions. Not that it matters - I consider rape a violent act, and a man making love to his wife, and wanting to be with her to show his love is NOT that way.
Quote: Do I think you should go out and ask 100 people on the street if they would consider that rape before you destroy your marriage? YES!
I've been contemplating contacting my local talk radio stations to discuss this topic. I'm also curious to see what Dr. Laura would have to say.
Quote: ...get these crazy notions out of your head. Why are you so eager to blame him and so reluctant to examine why you are doing this to your H and your marriage? Lots of people initiate sex in their sleep
I'm not so eager to blame H and reluctant to examine my own problems - I am the one who sought therapy! You keep saying "initiate"... My H isn't "initiating" sex; I'm waking up just as he's about to come. Here's an image for you to chew on... I do not like anal intercourse and my H is aware of this. I have woken to the feeling that I need to have a bowel movement when I realize he's having anal intercourse with me. But this is just H showing how much he loves and respects me, right? He's just trying to be intimate with me, right?
Quote: ...she started withdrawing from him sexually as soon as the marriage started. And now that she starts the process of counselling that might teach her how to be in a more intimate (and therefore more vulnerable) relationship with her H, she finds a reason to take the focus off of her very obvious problems and put the blame back on her H. I think it's obvious that she's terrified of a really good loving intimate R because then she would have to be more open and vulnerable.
We had a wonderfully intimate and sexual relationship for the first 3 years. For those first few years, we probably ML every night or every other night! We were truly connected and intimate. The first time H ever disrespected me was shortly after he proposed. Why is it so hard for you to understand that I am not afraid of vulnerability, of being intimate? I didn't seek counselling to be taught how to be more intimate! I sought counselling to find out why I wasn't sexually attracted to a man who I've always considered my knight in shining armour. I wanted to know why I have no desire to even fake it with him now.
Quote: ...the majority of districts would deem such a situation spousal rape, with attempted rape the lesser charge. ...
dismissing that as "okay" and blaming it on one person's trauma seems a bit harsh to me, as a woman and a wife. /-:
Lina: Thank you so much for speaking up, I truly appreciate your voice!
Honeypot: Yes, I have broken him down over the years. I have had tremendous guilt thinking I must have tricked him into marrying me. I thought I must have been pretending to enjoy sex so much before becoming his wife. I've been very depressed due to the guilt I feel. I can't tell you how manytimes I've thought he would be so much happier with someone else. However, as I said earlier, it's not as if I rejected him all the time. I did take his feelings into consideration and was a wife as much as I could. Last month after I initiated twice in one week, he went right back to wanting it every night! I'm sorry, but I'm not into it every night, especially when I'm working through my feelings.
Yes, I am certain he is awake when he does this to me. As soon as I stir or wake up, he stops dead in his tracks like he's guilty and ashamed. He doesn't apologize, but I know he's aware of how hurt and angry I am. The last time he did this, I called my therapist crying the next day. She told me to have him call her to set up an appointment. He seemed to grasp the enormity of it all just by having to see her. I do have to give him credit for going and continuing to go. He's showing me that he is finally taking this seriously, but after putting up with it for so long, I'm afraid that I'll never be able to fully respect or trust him. I'm not saying I want to rush out and get a divorce, I think I need to start all over with him. Is that so wrong?
Quote: My H isn't "initiating" sex; I'm waking up just as he's about to come. Here's an image for you to chew on... I do not like anal intercourse and my H is aware of this. I have woken to the feeling that I need to have a bowel movement when I realize he's having anal intercourse with me. But this is just H showing how much he loves and respects me, right? He's just trying to be intimate with me, right?
Here's something to think about. How do you KNOW your body is limp and unwilling? How do you KNOW how your body is responding in your sleep? How do you KNOW that you aren't reaching out and touching him and getting him aroused in his sleep? I only bring this up because, in my experience, anal sex is pretty hard to accomplish with any but the most willing partners. I am positive that even though I am a very sound sleeper too, my H couldn't get that far with me asleep unless my body was cooperating with him. When I was tired and my libido low from the thyroid problems, I would actually hit his hand away in my sleep!
So consider the possibility that in your sleep, you might actually be behaving in a more welcoming manner than you realize. I know you don't think you are - but would you be willing to put up a videocamera (with H's permission of course) and establish once and for all what's really happening in your sleep? You might be surprised at what your unconscious is doing.
Quote: Yes, I have broken him down over the years. I have had tremendous guilt thinking I must have tricked him into marrying me. I thought I must have been pretending to enjoy sex so much before becoming his wife. I've been very depressed due to the guilt I feel. I can't tell you how manytimes I've thought he would be so much happier with someone else. However, as I said earlier, it's not as if I rejected him all the time. I did take his feelings into consideration and was a wife as much as I could. Last month after I initiated twice in one week, he went right back to wanting it every night!
Don't forget to consider reasons other than psychological ones for your loss of libido. Thyroid problems, female hormone problems, fatigue due to other disorders, and clinical depression can all cause this - and can all be treated
Many of the Walkaway Spouses on the other threads share a common theme - they got clinically depressed (not enough neurotransmitters in their brains) and couldn't really figure out why they felt so bad, so they focused on the problems in their marriage (and even great marriages always have some problems you could point to) and convinced themselves that it was their spouse's fault they felt so bad, and confused their deppression and lack of feelings generally for lack of love for their spouse. (Often then the next step for WASs is a flirtation and then affair that gets their dopamine levels up temporarily with the "high" of infatuation - this temporarily relieves their depression - so they think they're "in love" and leave their spouses.) When my H finally got treatment for his clinical depression, he went from saying he didn't love me anymore and didn't believe he could ever get those feelings back, to telling me he adored me, in about 6 weeks time.
I guess what I'm saying here is, don't assume that just because you're not feeling those "in love" feelings right now that they are lost forever, or even necessarily gone at all - they could just be buried under a clinical depression or anxiety about something else.
You might want to read one of Michelle's other books - "Getting Through to the Man you Love" - better suited to your sitch than the Divorce Busting books, I think. I found it tremendously helpful. Also, the Keeping Love Alive tapes are good, but pricier than a book.
Quote: We had a wonderfully intimate and sexual relationship for the first 3 years. For those first few years, we probably ML every night or every other night! We were truly connected and intimate. The first time H ever disrespected me was shortly after he proposed. Why is it so hard for you to understand that I am not afraid of vulnerability, of being intimate? I didn't seek counselling to be taught how to be more intimate! I sought counselling to find out why I wasn't sexually attracted to a man who I've always considered my knight in shining armour. I wanted to know why I have no desire to even fake it with him now.
Intimacy takes many forms. One of the big revelations for my H and I was how much we had both been holding back in the R. If you had asked me about that a few years ago, I would have thought you were nuts - we were the closest couple I knew! But in reality, there was a lot of junk getting in the way of us being truly open and vulnerable with each other. Both of us had abandonment fears (my father died when I was 14 - my H's mother wasa WAW when he was a teen). My H dealt with his fear by "longing" - for something better, more perfect, that would make him feel better - and expressed it by criticizing me (trying to perfect me) and keeping the door to our marriage just slightly ajar in case something "better" came along. I dealt with my fears by avoiding conflict, ignoring painful issues, and accomodating my H to an unhealthy extent - while nursing a grudge against him that poisoned a lot of our interactions.
So why not make some temporary compromises with your H that will take the emphasis off the sex and put it back onto rebuilding the R? How about you sleep in separate beds for a while (then you don't have to be anxious about sleeping, and he can masturbate in privacy as needed) while you agree to initiate sex 3 times a week (you have to set the nights, otherwise it becomes too tense for the other party, wondering when it will happen - say, Tuesday, Friday, Sunday?). Make sure at least one of those nights is a date night out - and go do fun things, new things, not just boring dinner and a movie dates. Adrenaline rushes are good for recapturing that "falling in love" feeling.
Also - another excellent book is the Five Love Languages by Chapman - highly recommended by everybody on the boards, I think.
Quote: How do you KNOW your body is limp and unwilling? How do you KNOW how your body is responding in your sleep?
I know because I sometimes wake up to him agressively caressing me or feeling me up and I pull away, turn over, slap his hands away, or tell him, "I'm really tired and just want to sleep, please go to sleep".
Quote: Don't forget to consider reasons other than psychological ones for your loss of libido. Thyroid problems, female hormone problems, fatigue due to other disorders, and clinical depression can all cause this - and can all be treated
I asked my doctor many times if she could test my hormone levels and she told me I'm completely normal and healthy due to the fact that I had problem-free pregnancies. I always figured it had to be me, but respect is such a huge issue for me, so it just makes sense to me that respect is the underlying issue.
Quote: How about you sleep in separate beds for a while (then you don't have to be anxious about sleeping, and he can masturbate in privacy as needed) while you agree to initiate sex 3 times a week. Adrenaline rushes are good for recapturing that "falling in love" feeling.
I'm patiently waiting for our boarder to leave at the end of this month so I can move into the bedroom downstairs. Initiating sex 3xweek is not an option I'm even willing to consider at the moment. I do not agree that just because we are married I must have sex with him. That's utter crap! How the hell am I supposed to initiate sex with someone I don't respect? This is NOT like getting back on a horse after you've been bucked off!
I realize you're only trying to help and I thank you for offering your suggestions. I guess I just can't wrap my head around giving something to someone who was been stealing it for so long.
