"So my biggest question/fear -- what if I'm the narcissist and I'm the one with the blinders?"
This is the truth: I wondered the same thing about you myself. Indeed, I wondered if whoever put up the link might have said it was for H in the hope that you would take it yourself. I wonder what your score was. It doesn't sound as if H fits into the narcissist mould well at all. But did you?
Here's something to think about -- whether or not you did score high, you project yourself as someone who scores very high if I "take the test for you" as I perceive you. Does that bother you? Do you see why it might even sound narcissistic that you believe you could take the quiz for H better than he could take it himself?
The incredible resiliency of your belief system does indeed make me wonder about the narcissism thing. It seemed like before you were beginning to get closer to some honest introspection, but now you've snapped back to a pretty rigid understanding of yourself that casts you as the perfect, capable, achieving, very unrealistically well-adjusted spouse.
This may take several responses. I really appreciate everyone throwing in, brutal honesty or not.
Per oldtimer's suggestion, I took the N quiz. I scored 4. That isn't to imply that I couldn't still have some blinders on, just that I'm not a qualified narcissist.
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In brutal honesty CV, I do believe that your image of your husband is so poisoned at this point that he can do no right. I understand it annoys you, but falling asleep and snoring while watching a movie at home could be viewed as a fairly minor infraction right?
Yes, Accuray, I also believe my image of him is poisoned. Falling asleep, even snoring during a movie, is NOT a major infraction. I wasn't suggesting that the action itself was. I was trying to point out that my issue was with his insistence that I stay in the same room with him anyway. I get the unspoken message from him that his comfort/enjoyment is more important than mine, even when he's sleeping and completely unconscious and I'm fully awake. This is the same issue with his complaint that I was sleeping in the other BR because of his snoring, even though I slept better there.
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It does feel to me like you have a very distinct set of expectations for what a husband should be, and you feel he falls short on virtually all of them.
I DO have a very distinct set of expectations. I do feel he falls short on virtually all of them. My list is very short.
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Is it fair to say that you're not really looking for anything to change, you're mainly here looking for support in ways to cope?
I would take any suggestions for change or coping or both. I will likely filter some. If someone suggests that I wrap myself up in cellophane and seduce my H when he gets home because that would get his attention, I'm probably going to reject that one. If someone suggests that I ask him a question, to somehow better understand what/why/etc, I would me more than happy to do that.
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Your situation frustrates me, because I would love to learn if there was anything that would be meaningful to H to motivate him to better meet your needs
ME TOO! Give you a million dollars to find that out (well, if I had it I would.)
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and if he were to start to do so, if you would give him a chance.
I feel like we got a glimpse of that when you complimented him and he then went out and fixed the side of your house. That whole episode seemed very positive, but it didn't seem to have any legs to it and didn't keep going.
It never has legs. Honestly, I wouldn't immediately jump on board, because he has no endurance. He's good for about 3 days of something. Now, if you could get him to consistently do anything for one month, then I would be all over it. (And before you ask, yes, I can and have implemented changes for months, even years.)
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I would guess that he is also hurt and frustrated.
Yes, I'm sure he is. This ties back to what I was trying to understand in regards to being hurt or frustrated because someone doesn't do something for you that you want them to do. His sense of entitlement is lost on me. He is NOT hurt because I did something he didn't want me to do (ie. cheat.) He is hurt because I won't do something that he wants me TO DO (ie. watch a movie with him.) Your suggestion of having boundaries results in my H feeling hurt and frustrated.
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One interesting exercise might be to think about how he would describe your marriage? What would he say about you and how he is treated?
Would you agree with his characterization? Would you care? (I think you would)
Right now, he would say that I don't like him, which is true. (And also confusing why he would still want me to be/do something with him. I don't generally like to hang out with people that dislike me.) He would also say that I criticize him all the time. (Per a suggestion some time back, I ask him daily if he felt like I criticized him that day, and he says I didn't. I've been doing that for about 2 months?? He would still tell you that I always criticize him.) He would tell you that I don't like sex. (Not true, I just don't like frustrating sex.) He would say that I'm very cordial and respectful and courteous, but that he feels like I don't want to be in the same room with him, which is also true. These are some of the things I would think he would say. Would you like me to ask him? I believe I know, but it would be an interesting exercise to see if he would answer it for you.
Oldtimer, I'll hang on to the WAS title for now. It still means something to me, or at least I still do see a distinction. Probably not worth discussing.
As to the M/F aspects, I believe that thinking that M and W are the same is dangerous, as evidenced by Accuray's posts regarding the specifics. I agree that it is more important to regard people as people and that people are simply different, I also think that can be done while still recognizing that there are some distinct gender differences.
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You VERY DEEPLY resent H's failure to adequately treat his sleep apnea.
I think you missed it somewhere along the way -- H does have a cpap and wears it pretty religiously now. It's the only reason I've agreed to sleep in the same bed. There were issues initially with his snoring and neglect toward doing anything about it, but my problem has always been with his self-prioritization in regards to anything that's uncomfortable for me, not the cpap itself.
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You punish H for his sleep apnea by withdrawing.
Accuray described this as a healthy boundary. I'm curious as to your different opinion?
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My H falls asleep watching movies too. But I LIKE him just to BE WITH ME on the couch. Simply BEING together and SHARING experiences are deep and profound ways of building intimacy.
Again, in all of these experiences you've described, you are conscious when you're experiencing them. H is not.
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Try saying this: "Yes, I am pissed as hell at H and resent him so much that there isn't much of anything he can do that doesn't tick me off. I'm constantly critical of him because of my pain, but I'm skilled enough with my criticism that I can deny it without skipping a beat. I'm hurt and lonely. Damn him for not being there. Damn him for not treating the sleep apnea. F him and anything he wants. He doesn't deserve anything he wants, he's a spoiled selfish brat who can't even take care of himself like an adult. No way I can want, love, or respect a guy like that." GET REAL WITH YOURSELF.
Did I ever imply that I'm not hurt? Of course, I'm angry at times and not others, but I thought everyone knew that anger was just a manifestation of fear or pain? I'm sure I haven't said that here, but I have used pretty close to those exact words with my BFF at times. Sure, it's a nice vent, and then I feel better and I'm not angry anymore, but what exactly does it accomplish besides? Beyond that? -- some you're right, some you're wrong, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Ironically, your posts to me always seem to come across as angry, so maybe it's just something in the way the two of us communicate. But I can deal if you can?
It isn't anger, it is frustration. You play a lot of games with yourself that get in your way.
I don't believe you when you say you are fine with H falling asleep and going to another room to finish a movie. I believe you resent it along with his history of sleep apnea deeply. Thus, knowing it hurts H when you finish the movie elsewhere, it looks a lot like punishing H because of your resentment.
Glad H is using his CPAP. Has H had his sleeping disorder evaluated recently? It sounds like his treatment is insufficient if he is still showing significant signs of sleep deprivation.
Jumping in. I'm gonna admit that I didn't read your whole thread from the past few pages I think I got a jist of it.
Have you read How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking about It? That book really helped me see a few things.
You do sound really upset with your H. Do you like him? Not love him, but do you like him as a person. What is it that you like about him? Can you make a list? Vera said what you think about expands. Perhaps you should make a list of everything you love/like about H. Think about these things.
At the end of my M, H was so used to nothing every being right or good enough he stopped trying. I stopped expecting. All we did was get trapped in this cycle where we really didn't like each other.
Nit picking and being critical isn't going to change his behaviour change how you react and see if that doesn't change something. If you don't think you can treat him with compassion, love, kindess then that needs to change. You need to figure out why you can't find any kindness and it can't include "Because He..." It will be about you.
At the end of my M, H was so used to nothing every being right or good enough he stopped trying. I stopped expecting. All we did was get trapped in this cycle where we really didn't like each other.
THIS ^^^^^^^^^ is, IN MY (not so) HUMBLE OPINION an absolute truth about the nature of relationship breakdowns.
If you don't think you can treat him with compassion, love, kindess then that needs to change. You need to figure out why you can't find any kindness and it can't include "Because He..." It will be about you.
I don't believe you when you say you are fine with H falling asleep and going to another room to finish a movie. I believe you resent it along with his history of sleep apnea deeply. Thus, knowing it hurts H when you finish the movie elsewhere, it looks a lot like punishing H because of your resentment.
This is one we'll just have to disagree on. I'm very content not even starting the movie together. We don't like the same kind of movies anymore anyway. Maybe it just isn't my love language, but the idea of getting value from being in the same room with someone that is sleeping is simply lost on me. In general, I'm more of a loner, and I'm quite content most of the time doing things alone. My hobbies are gardening, sewing, and reading, all things very easily done alone, as opposed to tennis or poker which generally requires more than one person. (re. my post of preferring to watch a ballgame on tv vs. going to the stadium with 40k other people.) You don't have to believe me, but you're not going to convince me either.
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Glad H is using his CPAP. Has H had his sleeping disorder evaluated recently? It sounds like his treatment is insufficient if he is still showing significant signs of sleep deprivation.
No, he hasn't. If that's something you care to take up with him, feel free. I have suggested, repeatedly. Now I'm into nagging. Honestly, I think it's just more of a family trait so it might be pointless anyway.
I don't believe I've read that one, though honestly, I've read so many they all start sounding alike. It has become a real frustration for me to read how it's supposed to work, and then have it fail continuously.
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You do sound really upset with your H. Do you like him? Not love him, but do you like him as a person. What is it that you like about him? Can you make a list?
I love him, but I don't like him. I've made that list before, and the list consists of everything he is to everyone else. If you were a neighbor and knocked on the door for help carrying something heavy, he would drop whatever he was doing to accommodate (including dropping me.) If you needed money, he would give it to you (out of my funds.) If you invite him to a fun social event, he will be there (even if it means canceling what we had on the calendar already.) He'll have your back (even if it means lying to me.) He'll do anything for his kids (including going against my wishes to accomplish it.) He is a great friend for the most part (as long as you don't complain or criticize or hold him accountable to what he promised or expect anything deep from him.) I know this because I have witnessed it repeatedly. I've thought for many years that I would rather be his friend than his W. From the outside, I thought it would be golden to be M'd to someone that thoughtful and considerate and serving. I didn't know I would just be his means to be that person to everyone else.
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At the end of my M, H was so used to nothing every being right or good enough he stopped trying. I stopped expecting. All we did was get trapped in this cycle where we really didn't like each other.
We're there. So WHAT is good enough? If we schedule a date night and go out to dinner and he sits and watches the ballgame the whole time, should that be good enough? It doesn't fulfill me in any way, I would prefer not to go with him in the first place and go with a GF instead. At least there would be interaction. It seems like there are a lot of books, and a lot of posts on this site, that depict how it's supposed to work (certainly in the context of 180's.) When that isn't happening, how does the receiving spouse make it "good enough?" I really need this answer, because I went our whole M frustrated sexually, but trying to accept it as "good enough." (Yes, I asked, yes, I instructed, no he didn't oblige -- just to catch anyone up on an old topic.)
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If you don't think you can treat him with compassion, love, kindess then that needs to change. You need to figure out why you can't find any kindness and it can't include "Because He..." It will be about you.
I do treat him with compassion, love and kindness. No, I don't have sex with him, though I am sleeping in the same bed with him because it's what he wants. Beyond that, I do. I don't particularly enjoy it. I don't invest a lot of energy or creativity in doing so. It's very unrewarding, like handing money to a drunk, just so they can drink more. But I do, because that's about me. I'm just not willing to continue to compromise my boundaries in order to do so. In a healthy R, I shouldn't have to.
So you don't like him or you don't like how he is to you. You don't like spending time with him because he shuts you out. He's not there sexually (I've been there sister) and you treat him with kindness even though he doesn't deserve.
So why do you want this M to work?
Why if all those things are true: nothing works: no books no change in behaviour no sexual advances why are you holding on?
I stopped holding on (then I did a lot of stuff I regret) but I was honest with myself to say he doesn't want to change and we're miserable and something has to change. Then the trying and expectations were gone and we related to each other different and I thought its still there.
What would he say you do different? My H said that I only dressed up for friends and work. That's just an example. But he's not the only one who's changed. What would he say you've changed thru out the M even if it's in reaction to him?
