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Definitely you need a boundary here.

I'd not make it as fixed as Starsky suggests -- (1) you can't know how you will feel in the future (2) I have NEVER seen a case where contact ends cleanly or neatly. It takes time to get back to a monogomy.

But, I agree strongly that you need a boundary. Of course, YOU were also in contact with OW and YOU plan to see her in June.

So, you BOTH have a bit of work to do to get back to a monogomous R with transparency and no contact.

BTW, I'd wager big money that (1) W called OM and (2) she did it to self-medicate because of the deep pain and hurt caused by your disclosure about OW. After all, who is she supposed to go to that pain with, given you were "fully justified" in getting sexually and romantically involved with OWs. Neither of you left space for her to come to you with that pain.

So, rather than ultimatums, judgments, and an air of moral superiority, you might better substitute:

"W, it really hurts me that you were in contact with OM. It feels good that you were honest about it. If we are going to give this M its best chance to become a fulfilling, vibrant, passionate M that works for both of us, we both need to commit to no contact with anyone who is not good for our M. That means my OWs and your OM. We have to work together to rebuild trust on both sides -- this requires a clear commitment to no contact that has been transparently communicated to the OWs and OM, continued transparency, continued no contact. If we are going to try this together, let's do it right. Neither of us knows how things will work out. We won't be bad guys if we later choose a different path. But now we need the safe space and time to see where we land, hopefully in a good place. I love you. You must have been in a painful place to renew contact with OM. I'm sorry for your pain. Let's share it and be here for each other. You are worth the emotional risk to me. I am sorry if I caused you pain because of my Rs with the OWs. It doesn't matter that we were separated. What matters is that we can share our pain, empathize, forgive, and heal. I want us to feel safe with each other, open, and honest. Clear air, bright future."

I have no problem with that speech, Oldtimer. It's why I originally recommended mutual transparency.

It isn't their only problem, but it IS their immediate obstacle, in my opinion.


Starsky

Again, thanks sooo much for sticking with me on this, everyone. This is some really great stuff for me to consider. I have the evening home alone with D9, so I can mull it over some while W is at work.

My initial thoughts are more in line with oldtimer. I was clear in the beginning about no contact, but that didn't happen and I didn't enforce it. I didn't really have an expectation that she would just drop all contact because I said so. So, I think clearly establishing that boundary now that all the cards are on the table will be appropriate to give us a base to move forward from. Plus, setting "rules" based in these boundaries will help with determining appropriate action should it happen again.

At that point, Starsky's advise seems right on the money.

Had our transparency chat. I took the track of oldtimer, outlined my ideas about expectations and giving ourselves a fair chance at success without outside influence, etc. Offered full transparency myself. Even discussed setting goals for creating a place of openness, transparency, and honesty, where we can both feel safe and build trust.

She took her usual defensive posture, while I tried to be open and honest, yet get my points across. Some of her responses (paraphrased and in no particular order) were:


"Hey, I screwed up, what do you want me to do?" with regards to her phone call.

"I've been reconsidering divorce...On a scale of 1 to 10, the feeling is a 7.5"

"I don't wanna see your..." boring work email to OW. "There may be an attraction, but I see no relationship between you two and it doesn't compare to my R with OM. She's no threat to me. She doesn't even live here. Now the fact you had sex with someone else..." basically makes me a hypocrite in that I had previously judged W for her affairs and that is something she has a problem with.

"Everyone says happiness is a choice, well, I'm choosing to be happy with you, but it's not working."

"My R with OM is really a great friendship, first, and that has been very important to me. That is something I don't have with you."

"Look, I've told you before, I don't expect the OM to be waiting for me when this is all over. I can't expect he won't move on with his life. That's still doesn't change the fact that this isn't working..." between us.

"You just tell me what you want me to do, and I'll just do it your way and that..." will basically be the end of this discussion. "So, tell me what do I do? Do we start having sex once a week?" (that was an odd one).

"One thing about all this, I do feel we communicate MUCH better now than before." (I think this is one of the small miracles 25 spoke of)

Just before bed, she added, "I don't want to write a contract or anything with you on this transparency thing." To which, I replied, "That's where the honesty comes in. This is the honor system. Let's just be more open and talk about this stuff."


I'll leave this open to interpretation from you all. My initial feeling is this is good old-fashioned WAW stuff and feels like the "old days" with her pulling back. To which, I think my response must be to go dark with regards to much of this - I got my ideas across and she understood what I was telling her. My intuition is telling me, "time to step back and give her LOTS of breathing room."

I've always felt that no-contact and transparency can only be put in place when the wayward spouse is at the genuine-remorse, "I'm truly sorry and what will it take?" stage.

Your wife clearly isn't there yet.

Without that, it basically comes across as:

Betrayed spouse: "My boundary is 100% no-contact, and full transparency, or I cannot remain married to you."

Wayward spouse: "Who said anything about me even WANTING to remain married to you at this point?"

Your wife is still in full resentment/entitlement mode, in my opinion.


Starsky

TRANSLATION: "Play nice, and we'll see if we can get this down to a 5 or a 6. F*%k with me, and this goes back to a 9.5."

"My initial feeling is this is good old-fashioned WAW stuff and feels like the "old days" with her pulling back. To which, I think my response must be to go dark with regards to much of this - I got my ideas across and she understood what I was telling her. My intuition is telling me, "time to step back and give her LOTS of breathing room.""

Sounds right to me.

BTW, her spew about your "hypocrisy" is almost certainly deep emotional pain from your EA and PA coming out instead as anger. I really hope you can see that.

Your affairs aren't trivial, justified, or water under the bridge to her. They hurt.

And it WOULD be good for you to drop the judgmental stuff about her affairs.

Both of you had relationships with other people outside of your M because of deep personal pain. It somehow seemed like a good option at the time, whether it was or not.

As for her not wanting to do a contract, well, that just means she is not willing to cut off contact with OM and probably won't be honest about it. This is standard. If you aren't willing to risk that, leave now.

This doesn't mean that you accept it and say it is OK. Indeed, until you establish a clear boundary it will probably continue. But, you DON'T need to share it with her verbally. She already knows contact is not OK with you and that you want honesty. When contact occurs, what is the consequence? I like the suggestion of: "I cannot live in a marriage where my wife is still in contact with another man. I have a lot to think about." And I walked away to get some stuff done."

When she is serious about giving up OM, she'll end it with him in a way that makes it clear to you. A letter she gives you to mail or email, a phone call with you listening in, etc... But even after that there will almost certainly be a last sputter as the R comes to a close.

This is not to be all doom and gloom. It is simply how these things work. You should be able to see it in your own behavior with your OWs.

Anyway, this is my best advice: stop worrying about your M and her choices. Take a break from it. Put her on double secret probation and just watch for 6 weeks. Give her space, be somewhat dark, but still have good, positive interactions with her. Be a good date. GAL. Don't worry, be happy. Seriously. When things bother you, shelve them until the end of double secret probation. After 6 weeks, take stock and figure out what works best for you for the next six weeks.

In terms of working on yourself, focus on dumping the passive-aggressiveness.


What is with the once-a-week sex thing?

I never had the expectation that she would actually go cold turkey on that. Honestly, it doesn't really bother me, as I don't think he is waiting around for her to figure it all out. Most likely, should she bail, he won't be there for her. I do dislike the lying about it, however. Sneakiness makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.


Absolutely. I even mentioned/recognized that we had caused each other great pain and that, I'd like us to get to a place where the healing can begin. She'll have to chew on that a while, I think, to see it more clearly. She's still wrapped pretty tight.

Working hard on this.


I have no idea. I was stunned. After she said it, she asked me, "What's wrong? Why do you have that blank look on your face?" Over the weekend, she had asked me if I still found her attractive. My intuition is telling me she may be having desires of some sort, but is not acting on them. Kind of testing things out, perhaps? I don't really want to speculate.

Been kind of cold around home since our Tuesday night transparency chat. Went to out Retro Post session last night and I think it was very positive for us both. We had both entered with a fair amount of anxiety, but walked away feeling good. We came home after and ended up doing something we used to do - sit in the courtyard with a log in the fire pit, enjoy wine, and talk for hours (I elected to skip the wine). It was very nice. I listened a lot and when the wine began to set in for her, she began to unload some things, which I handled very well . . . I am even taking much of it constructively.

Plus, I found out my intuition was spot on here - a very pleasant surprise!

So, in the end, I had a wonderful evening with her, plain and simple - even with her self-medicating, it did bring down her guard enough to relax and enjoy herself, and allowed me to enjoy her more, as she was more open and less defensive. She's pulled back a bit this morning, but I expected that and I'll let her figure it out herself, while doing my best to keep myself open to anything she would like to share about our evening or otherwise.

All-in-all, I feel like adding another chalk mark on 25's board of small miracles. I'm beginning to that they really will add up and make a difference.

I really am OnMyWay.

Well, that was short lived.

She called me while I was at work - her car had broken down and she was in a some "nice lady's" car getting a ride and would call me when she got home. She would need my car to get to her job tonight.

I came home, she took off. I heard her phone go off with a text message and my immediate thought was, "OMG, Mom forgot her phone. How's she going to get hold of us?" My D9 went for it, and I and odd feeling all of a sudden made me realized I didn't want her looking at any text messages on her mom's phone. I immediate grabbed it and wouldn't you know, my intuition was right again. She and OM had been texting each other and even spent the day together while I was at work and D9 was at school. He was the "nice lady" who had rescued her. Some of the texts were quite racy, so I'm really glad I go to them before my D9. So much for no-contact.

I'm not mad, not even surprised - I do feel very disappointed, sure. But, as oldtimer noted above, I was actually expecting this to happen. Just then, knowing she had left her phone, W came running back into the house to find me standing holding her phone and reviewing her text thread. I handed her her phone and told her to have a nice night at work. She left. She did call me on her way to work to apologize. I think she was put off by the fact that I really had nothing to say to her - not even anything derogatory. I did mentioned to her how much of a foolish I felt "trying" at our marriage and escially when I had felt so good about last night, only to have her immediately run off to him.

I took D9 to a school carnival where I found out from one of D9's friends that she knows exactly what's going on. After that, D9 finally opened up to me and told me a bunch of stuff. I feel so bad for her. She is so disappointed in her mother.

So, it is time for the Starskey approach tonite. She has free will - it is time for her to use it. This time, I know I'm that I am indeed giving her an ultimatum, but I'm not going to be a fool any longer. Time for her to end her cake eating and move in one distinct direction.