Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Piecing Our Marriage Back Together Again Picking up where we left off . . . I'm OnMyWay

Oldtimer is very wise. I 100% agree.


You are like the recovering pyromaniac, and there is no place for playing with matches and kerosene -- PERIOD.


Starsky

OnMyWay,

I'd strongly suggest that you and your wife -- as part of your reconcilation -- commit to a MUTUAL transparency plan with each other.

Have you two discussed no-contact and transparency? Preferably, this would be introduce by a good MC/FT, specifically trained in dealing with the aftermath of infidelity, but the two of you could do it on your own, too.

You're either both "all in" on this, or you're not. The FEELINGS will take a long time to return, but the DECISION can me back now. As they taught us as Retrouvaille, "Love is a decision" . . . right?


Starsky

25, thanks for the followup. I think you understand all this quite well. That feels like a breath of fresh air ;-)

Funny, when deciding I was ready to move on, I remembered a post of yours on my "Newcomer's" thread where you asked me "What is it you really want?" The answer turned out to be simply, "I want to be somewhere else besides here, regardless of the outcome."

The results where not what was expected, but I've indeed moved on to a differently level. I also, after Retrouvaille, I have a new understanding of much of what you were telling me before. So, thank you.



Let me be clear: I've offered this simply as an interpretation of my experience, not as advise to anyone! I sincerely hope that those reading this will learn on their own as much of what NOT to do, as well as what I did do that worked for ME. The ultimatum thing, while I judged myself as honorable in my decisions AT THAT TIME, it was not thoroughly thought through. That said, one of the most important lessons I have learned from all this is, I can never judge correctly what the other person is feeling at any given time and that I do make mistakes and misjudge quite often. Yet, I keep plugging away and each new day brings another chance to give it a go - while realizing no good can come from dwelling on that which was wrong yesterday.

That is something I must try harder to remind myself. Tiny adjustments.

Oldtimer, thanks for reading my diatribe. Advise well taken. I'm not sure of your interpretation of all my motivations. You could be correct and they could be all true or not. I haven't fully explored my feelings about them, nor do I intend to give them too much credence, as W & I are not yet in a position to be working through all that, and perhaps getting through it and moving past it is more important than dwelling on it. I don't currently have that answer.

As far as #2, I'm clear on where I am on this and what is to happen. What I wanted to convey here in offering this information is not that another woman made me feel good, but that I took something very important away from my experience with the OW: Just exactly how unfulfilled I was in my own M with my W. Until then, I hadn't known. It took this experience to help me realize I what I was missing, that could move on in my life, and that I would be ok no matter what. However I've used the experience as any sort of reference in my M with W is certainly debatable, for sure. The semantics of us being separated and me being "free" to do as I please can be easily judged however anyone sees fit - justified or not. I can see how that missing piece of the marital puzzle certainly had an effect on my M. But it is undeniable the lesson I learned from the experience has helped me move well beyond the past, which was ultimately my goal. My W & I need to be "All the way in," as Starsky pointed out. We admittedly have a ways to go on this front, which becomes an opportunity for us as there's much room for growth.

There's more to my personal story of learning gaining clarity that I have left out, but that will have to be for another post. For now, I just want to work our M program, listen to my W, try to understand who she is and what she's feeling, continue to try to understand myself and how I feel, and see what we can do together to improve. It is a full plate.

And, I got a great hug from W before I left for work this morning . . . which was nice :-D

I'm a little confused by your reply.

What does having learned something from your EA have to do with planned future contact with her?

It seems to me that you are defending your choice to get involved with women while you were separated. But that's not what I was writing about. Maybe it was a good idea to date, maybe not. I have no idea. I don't know your sitch.

What I was saying is that it is not OK to continue contact with the EA in any form if you are making the choice to be open to reconciliation. Future contact with EA, even countenancing it, is toxic to your M. The question isn't whether your previous actions were justified or not. The question is simply this: Is it OK to continue interaction with your EA in the context of your M? The very straightforward answer is this: No.

If you are adamant that you will continue contact with your EA, the only other real choice is to make her a friend of your wife and your marriage. Have her over for dinner. Include W in any email to her. And so on. My guess is that this wouldn't go over very well with W or EA, which alone should convince you that EA should not be in your life in any way.

OnMyWay, is there a reason why you didn't answer my questions? Did you see my post?


thanks,

Starsky

OMW,

Oldtimer and Starksy hit the nail on the head. They have shared true words of wisdom with you. I completely agree with them and strongly encourage you take their advice as you begin piecing. It can save you and your wife a lot of heartache and failed attempts at saving your marriage.

In my case, true reconciliation after infidelity was not possible without complete transparency in our marriage and absolutely NO contact in any form with ow. It took me three years and two failed attempts at reconciling my marriage to learn this lesson. My husband, too, made excuses for his need to communicate with ow, and when those excuses didn't fly with me, he just went behind my back. When I would discover they had been in contact (and it didn't matter to me what form it was in; anything at all was too much), any trust that had been restored was again destroyed. It was obvious he wasn't ready to do whatever it took to save our marriage. When I made it clear to him that I couldn't trust him and be in a marriage filled with secrets and deceit, my husband once again filed for divorce a year ago and moved out last summer. It was then that I established my own firm boundary that I would not even consider reconciling with him again (if he were to show interest) without total transparency and no contact with ow. When he did come back asking for another chance, I immediately made my boundaries clear to him. I do not use the transparency boundary to snoop or check up on him; on the contrary, because we do have transparency I don't feel the need to do these things. We are 8 months into piecing/reconciling, and I can honestly say this is the happiest we have been together in several years. Respect, honesty, friendship and LOVE has returned to our marriage. A little more trust is earned with each day. We are finally getting it right, but it has taken a lot of work as well as commitment to honoring our boundaries. I cannot express how worth it it has been to both of us.

What is your marriage and family worth to you? More than your current job? More than anything? Then do what it takes to honor your marriage and family and make things right. And I don't care if the need for communication is for work reasons; this woman needs to be history from your life PERIOD. If that means you need to find a new job, I'd start the search NOW.

Do everything it takes to make things right IF you indeed want to save this marriage.

all my best, ncl

Thanks for clarifying, oldtimer. I believe we are indeed talking about two different things and I didn't fully understand your point, as I was looking at this from the point of view that I no longer have an EA with the OW.

Also, I have no communication with the OW outside of our one transaction. It is 11:59 and it is almost done. Dropping out now is not as financially feasible for me as is just getting it done and having a new day tomorrow with this chapter of my life closed. My wife agrees. Should she change her mind, I'm open to her seeing what few to-the-point communications there are. I'm not hiding anything. So, I feel we are discussing something with regards to the OW that has little baring. Now, the fact that I used the EA in a sitch with my W is well open to interpretation - I have reread you comments on that and feel you are right on the money about those motivations. That is of far more importance to me as in my sitch, my main goal is currently to attain greater understanding of my W and myself.

I do completely agree that there is no room for an EA within any marriage. Now, if my wife would have the same realization about her OM, we could move in a different direction, but that is my placing a judgement on our sitch and is admittedly my spin for my own personal edification.

Thanks for the follow up.

What have you done to end the EA with OW?

Why do you have to communicate with OW in June if the single necessary transaction has already been completed today?

Why would you have any communication at all with OW in which W was not included? Can you BCC her? Does she have full access to your email?

All of this should be totally transparent.

And, all of this applies to W and OM too. No contact, complete transparency. It really doesn't matter whether she gets it. It is YOUR boundary to set, not hers. Good for her if she has the same one with you.

Does W know about your contact with EA today?

Yes. First of all, I didn't have time to answer your question. Second I wanted to think on it, as your topic wasn't sitting well with me at the time I reviewed it. But, in studying your topic further, I do appreciate what you are telling me. We have NOT had such a discussion outside of me originally stating if she were to come back, that OM needs to be gone. Of course, I wasn't in a relationship with anyone else (see above with regards to oldtimer), so I wasn't thinking I had anything I needed to be transparent about AT THAT TIME. She has admitted to me that she did have minimal contact with him since she moved back initially. As part of the Retrouvaille program, you must not have a relationship outside of the marriage as a condition of attending, so I have relied on the honor system up to now.

After our post-meeting last night, I could tell she was agitated, so inquired and was able to get her to open up. She unloaded all kinds of garbage in her life - from school, dealing with her family (her sister is a drug addict and is having problems), stress of graduation, finals, our situation, Retrouvaille (she doesn't like the religious aspects of it - and with reason, albeit off topic), and other "stuff." Interesting was that OM was not much of a factor. That could either be because he is beginning to fade and have less influence on her, or that she holds him in such high regard, he didn't merit discussion as an "issue affecting her life." That I'm not certain. She seems "clean" at this point in time, but then again, she did lie about it in the past, so it may merit further inquiry.

Further discussion at home led into our problems (against the rules of our program - we are not to be "fixing" our problems yet, just understanding each other's feelings). Her issues seemed to have little to do with her feelings for someone else, but more to do with her feelings about us, her independence, and how she feels society has judged her.

So, while she has made the decision to come back and made the decision to "try," I judge the decision to forgive and the decision to love are not a choices she's ready to make. Therefore, I'm admittedly a little nervous right now about forcing an issue of transparency when we are just getting started. Although, your question has me curious.

Perhaps I can offer transparency myself and see if she is comfortable reciprocating. That's seems a little passive-agressive, though. Perhaps simply waiting for the opportune moment would be a better way to approach the topic. I'm nervous to upset the obvious progress we have made in just the past week. Transparency will become a must down the road. Just not sure I'd be putting the cart before the horse at this juncture and that makes me nervous.