Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Do I just give in?

I don't think MC is going to help right now, she's not going to be a willing participant, so it's just going to make things worse by forcing you to put all your cards on the table. Wait for MC until she shows any interest in reconciling.

Accuray

Thanks Accuray.

I guess sometimes taking a stand isn't always just about what you say. Obviously, I've said a lot to her but it's more about how I follow through in action.

It's more powerful if you don't say anything, you just do it -- you can talk about it after you're living it.

Yes, making ultimatums or setting boundaries and then not enforcing them is the second to worst thing you can do, the worst being to pursue, beg and plead.

When you structure a boundary, you cannot phrase it in terms of what W can or cannot do, you have to phrase it in terms of what you will or will not accept. You also can't have consequences where W will need to do something, the consequences need to be what you will do.

i.e. if W is disrespectful to you in public, you can't set a boundary that "you can't talk to me like that in public", because you can't enforce that. Instead, you can say "I won't allow you or anyone else to talk to me like that in public." Then the consequence is "If you continue to speak to me like that in public, I will leave whatever it is we are doing and go home or back to work. If you drove with me in my car, you will need to find your own way home, so think about bringing cab fare along when we go out."

The big problem with ultimatums is that you have to be ready to enforce them no matter what. You can't tell W to break off all contact with OM, but you can say "If you continue your relationship with OM, then I will move to end our marriage." If you say that though, and she then continues to talk to OM, you have to pursue divorce or you have lost all credibility and respect. Therefore, do NOT make ultimatums or set boundaries that you are not detached enough to enforce.

Ironically, by the time most people can make an ultimatum like the last one, they no longer need to make it because they've detached and moved on themselves.

Definitely set boundaries, and enforce them, but structure them in the context of what YOU will do, not what will happen to W. The philosophy is "you make your decision and then I will make mine"

Accuray

So she just texted me that she was going to stay late at work to make up for time that she's going to be out of the office coming up. She was telling me because we agreed that she'd be home each night after work so she can focus on preparing for her test later this week.

One of the things she was doing when she'd go meet with OM was tell me she was working later than she really did. So needless to say a million questions started running through my head given how she's broken my trust of her. Rather then go through all that, I simply responded, "Do what you think you need to do." She then asked if I was going to be mad and I just responded that if she needs to work then she needs to work.

She then tried saying she studied already today, etc and all I said was good.

It's not like whether I'm okay with something these days matters anyway, right?

Yes, you handled that well, but the goal is to avoid being punishing or passive aggressive in your responses. The best thing you can do is not respond right away, just sit on it for a while. Make her wonder why you're not getting right back to her.

For instance, when she says she's going to stay late at work, you can say "Great! I hope it goes well". That's probably a 180 for you right? If you respond in a manner she would not expect, you make her start to call into question the assumptions she has made about you. You want her to question if she really does know you, and to regard you as someone she would like to get to know better (because you are happy!)

The fact that she told you is great, many WAS on this site wouldn't bother, they wouldn't want to talk to you at all. The fact that she's concerned if you'd be mad is also a positive sign. My W could have cared less how angry I was when she dropped the bomb, how I felt didn't matter at all.

I'm not saying this to pump you up, but you have a real shot here if you can get on the program and do it well. I know it's hard, it's the hardest thing I ever had to do, but it requires total and unwavering commitment.

Be friendly, be upbeat, be mysterious, be detached.

My DB coach recommended applying a "friendly co-worker" standard. You're going to be nice, polite and supportive to a friendly co-worker, but you're not going to share your feelings, you're not really going to expect anything from them, and if they don't do something you offered or were expecting them to do, you wouldn't care that much. If you can project that, you're where you want to be.

Accuray

I think I can do that. It might not be a change overnight but I bet that has the best effect so I'm going to try for it. Last night was the start so hopefully I can follow through.

In the meantime, I was thinking last night about the time period leading up to when I found out about her OM. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, W works later than me most nights during the week but it wasn't always like that. When she used to have stay later than normal and it started to become more regular than not I used to joke with her that we starting to become roommates. We'd both laugh about it at first but after a while she started to get annoyed that I was always ragging on her for working later or doing more than she should - she never gets compensated for the extra work she does so I would get bothered because I felt she was being taken advantage of.

Anyway, back to the time period leading up to me finding out about the OM. On the surface everything seemed normal; we were getting along great, both keeping busy with work as we normally were, and both looking forward to the coming months because we both enjoy the warmer months with doing things on the weekends outside, etc. But what's funny is that, and I think I may have picked up on it at the time, was that we started to go our own separate ways in a way. I'd come home from work, do what I needed to do, we'd chat for a few minutes and then I'd go watch TV downstairs or whatever I was off doing. Same with her. It wasn't necessarily a problem, she'd watch her more feminine TV shows and I'd watch what I wanted, but it was something that I started to pick up on and I was going to talk to her about it, without the "roommate" joke. This also wasn't entire uncommon for us but it was never anything that was always happening everyday. That's what spooked me about it.

Right around then is when I noticed things really change with her, specifically when she started staying up way later than normal - like 11, 12, 1 in the morning. That's what tipped me off to something being up because she would always make it a point to go to bed early so she had enough sleep before starting the next day. After a few days of that, I brought it up over dinner and asked her if everything was alright. She just said there was a lot going on at work and she was having trouble sleeping. I guess that answer wasn't enough for me - she always had a lot going on at work - and the next day is when I found the texts to OM. I then looked at the cell phone bill and saw that those nights she was up late she was really texting with OM. The rest is history.

Anyway, it was something I've been thinking about - where or when did things go wrong? I might never really get the answer to that.

Hindsight is 20/20, don't beat yourself up. You were together for 11 years. In that time, without concerted effort, things *will* get on "auto-pilot" in your relationship, and that's not a problem provided that both of you are comfortable and getting your needs met.

The problem with autopilot is that sudden attention from someone new looks so much better by comparison. "Hey, this new person is paying all this attention to me and telling me I'm great, while my spouse never pays attention to me." I think that's kind of where it starts. Now to be fair, the WAS tends not to think about the fact that they are ALSO on autopilot and not paying attention to the other person either. You need to make deposits in the love bank if you expect to take withdrawals.

It's healthy to understand your W's complaints about you, the dynamics that drew you apart, and to make changes for yourself to be a better spouse or partner in the future. It is not healthy to deconstruct everything that's happened and shoulder the blame for it. If you feel you neglected her, she neglected you too in all likelihood. If you complained about her late hours, it's probably because you weren't getting the attention you wanted. Those things are not your fault.

At some point, your W chose to cross the line, and you are not responsible for that. You SHARE responsibility for letting your relationship erode to a point that you were both vulnerable, but she is solely responsible for taking the actions she did. That does NOT reflect poorly on you, and you are not to blame for it.

Accuray

Yeah, autopilot is probably the best way to describe what our relationship was on.

A lot of me thinking about all this now is just looking back at things in retrospect. It started with me trying to understand the points she made about why she was unhappy, which are valid points. I take criticism pretty well, meaning I am able to see how I contribute to a problem and am willing to make the changes I can to resolve it. Whether it was because she thought she was always the one to plan what we did or we always did the same things or I was too complacent in my job - those are all types of things that have a compromise in there to be resolved. Despite that, she said she "didn't want to do this anymore." My reasoning of that is despite what she says how there is no relationship with OM, I know more than she realizes so I do believe that contributes to pulling her away.

At first I was in denial about everything that was going on when I found out about the OM. I didn't want to believe that it was more than just texting. I wanted to believe her when she said that it was "nothing" and just "entertainment". While I know she is ultimately responsible for the actions and decisions she made, the only thing I wonder is if because I wasn't more direct or didn't take more of a stand earlier, if it contributed to the A escalating to what it is now.

That question obviously has no bearings on our relationship going forward but it's the type of thing that leaves me to wonder "What if?"

As far as a status update: I'm still working on the friendly co-worker approach. Last night was the same deal with her "working" a little late. I didn't ask questions or pursue, I simply said, "Okay, if you think you need to do that then have fun" and left it at that. When she came home, she came to me to make our standard 15 minutes of small talk that we have since we had the separation talk. I actually think she went to see OM for a little bit but I'm not going to backslide and start looking into text messages, etc. I'm going on a week of not looking into any of that - at this point what is it going to tell me that I don't already know?

Tomorrow is when she takes this certification test for work that she's supposed to have been focusing on. We said when we had the separation talk that we'd pick everything up after the test...I'm still sorting out what my boundaries are going to be if/when she does move out.

The short answer is "no". Once it started happening you couldn't do anything to prevent it. All you could do is make it worse by trying to intervene. They would have worked around you and just gone deeper underground.

When W is working late, it would be great if you can figure out a way not to be home waiting for her. Is it possible for you to make your own plans after work and go out and have your own fun?

Accuray