Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers When it's a one-way street...part 2

PS I am at the same level in feelings as you, but in terms of M, I am 8 years down the track, more or less.

KD, have a great time with your kids this weekend! Thanks for your time!

BeingMe, I wish I could explain it. It's just the difference between people. I'm curious, is your H going to be surprised? hurt? bothered at all when you leave? It's hard to imagine with it going on for as long as it has. Do you have an optimistic outlook on your future? I think I've always felt is was jumping out of the frying pan into the fire, so that's part of why I'm sticking it out. Not much I can (will) really do to change my sitch until my son is out. Having him full time is really the only draw.

I doubt my H will care ... he already knows. I think it lasted this long because he travels a lot, so is rarely here. Two of the years, I was battling cancer (my kids at home were awesome), so that leaves 5 years. I've been clear for 2 years, and I have learned a lot from having cancer. One finds a different perspective when faced with one's possible demise.

I've been attending university, so that keeps me busy, plus I spent a lot of time overseas last year, helping my D31 with the birth of her third child. It was fantastic. I got to see another part of the world. I sure do have an optimistic outlook on my future. I still try and take each day as it comes. I dance for exercise, with a Wii Dance Tape, and it lifts my spirits no end (I probably suck, but I don't look in the mirror).

I don't think you and I are that different ... I made the same decision 7 years ago that you are making now. Just be sure you're not making that choice out of fear. I think I did, a little. I didn't want to be alone, and now I spend most of my time alone. I prefer it to not having an intimate, joyful M. There is always hope that that could happen, one day. It is fortunate that I am an introvert given the circumstances.

Just to be clear, my issue is not with sex. My issue is wanting to feel needed and wanted in this marriage, and sex has become a focal point for that because of the significance that I attach to it. If my W was making me feel needed and wanted in other ways, my current sex life wouldn't be as big an issue. Does that make sense?



Yes, seeing effort on her part would make a big difference, even if she wasn't able to attain whatever goal we're talking about. The effort would be appreciated because it would represent that I'm worth working for. Are there a couple behaviors my W could do sexually that would make things better? Absolutely, as much for the effort it represents as for the benefits implied.



First of all, it's not so bad being me

There's a very important distinction to be made here -- I'm very happy about the changes I've made. While I'm glad that W appreciates them, I would value them if W were here or not. My two female IC's said that I'm the kind of husband most women dream about -- I'm willing to engage at the level most women want. How can I not feel good about that? That's the key about making the effort to change yourself -- if you're doing it *for* H, you will be disappointed, because in many cases nothing he would do or say would show adequate appreciation for someone who's been through what you've been through. Bottom line for me is no regrets.

Here's another way to look at my sitch if it helps. You know how at work you can get into a rut? You wake up, put on the comfortable clothes that are closest at hand, eat a tasteless breakfast because it's quick and you're running late, drive your 8 year old Honda Accord to work, and kind of zone out through your day, getting your work done but just not really caring about it that much? At lunch you grab a tuna sandwich from the vending machine because you don't want to deal with going out and figuring out where to eat, and you punch out right at 5:00 and head home.

You can get comfortable doing that -- when things go wrong it's not that big a deal, when things go well, that's fine, but you're not really invested so you just don't care that much either way. That's a safe place, because you don't get hurt, but you also don't get any thrill from it.

My marriage got to a place like that, and looking around at my friends and family, that is a common trap for longer term marriages I believe. You're there, but you're not really invested in the moment. Once in a while you'll have a great night or a good day, but for the most part things are routine.

After my bomb drop, I "woke up" as it were. Now when I go to work I take the time to like how I dress, I spend more time preparing and eating a good breakfast. I'm engaged in the job, and will stay early or late to make sure things are delivered in the best way possible. When lunchtime comes, I make sure I eat something I enjoy. I traded in the Accord and bought a car with a stick shift that's fun to drive! When things go well I want to pump my fist in the air and say "YEAH!" and when things go bad, I take it hard. (Remember, this is just an analogy, my job isn't THAT great)

So I'm saying "come on W, let's attack this together! Let's have a great marriage, let's kick it up a notch!" She's saying "my Honda accord is fine, I'm ok eating tuna from the vending machine, my job's getting done, I don't see what the problem is"

So am I worse off because I'm more engaged? It makes things harder, there is no question. When we invest more we expect more return from life.

I don't regret the fact that I "woke up" so to speak, and I don't regret the difficult road I traveled. I've shown up to the party, let's get the music on and get this place rocking! I just wish my W would be my dance partner.

Accuray

Gosh, Accuray, thanks for chiming in! You provided more than I could have hoped for! I hope I didn't offend you in my post.

I can relate to so many points in your post. Some of it I can see myself doing already.

If that's true, it seems very sad that she's not willing to do that in light of everything else. I'm not sure it would work in my sitch (not sexually but otherwise.) I think you and I chatted once about whether you would want someone to go with you to a football game when you know they didn't want to and wouldn't enjoy it. I think even you said you wouldn't be interested, because that "disinterest" would show through and make it not fun for you. I'm not sure I see the difference in these things your wife could do for you, when you know how she feels about it. Obviously, if she "felt" differently, that's a whole other sitch.

Just curious, Accuray, do you think that YOU dropping the bomb on your W now would have the same effect on her? Do you think she's just comfortable and complacent like you were, and will be until something lights a fire under her? Or would she just be indifferent to that as well?

I've had some of the sort of transformations you've referred to. I work from home, so you can imagine MY most comfortable work clothes. My daytime clothes looked a lot like my nighttime clothes, and sometimes it was exactly the same -- for days! Ewww! Then I had gained some weight so none of my better clothes even fit, which was even more incentive to wear the sweats or flannels. But recently, I've gone out and bought some nice clothes that fit, and I shower, dress nice, and do my hair and makeup every morning. I've started exercising and I'm losing the weight. It feels great! I'm also developing some better habits at work (still hard to get very excited about the job though. ) So in this respect, I get it.

But on the other side of things, it's like my decision to go back to school. What classes I take will vary significantly depending where I plan to be when I'm done. Obviously, there are some basic overlays, but taking classes in computer science is not going to translate well if I want to get a job as a physical therapist, and vice versa.

For example, I used to snow ski, not well but I loved it. I used to go with the local ski club. It was great fun, a mix of singles and couples and single married's. If I want to pick up skiing again as part of my GAL, that is definitely a venue I would love to pursue. I found them initially because it's really hard to plan an affordable ski trip alone, and my friends at the time couldn't afford it or had no interest. I have similar issues now. Well, H has a huge issue with it because it's a social club with singles. So, I have to decide if I want to do it anyway as part of GAL and disregard his complaint, or respect his concern, not go, and deny myself this interest. At the same time, I see the risk in going out of town with a social group that has singles, and I know how vulnerable I would be. So to avoid the risk, I end up isolating myself.

I see this issue in soooo much of my day-to-day life. I would decide one way if I plan to be married to him and a different way if I plan to be gone. And I'm not talking about sleezy-pick-up-someone-in-a-bar-and-take-them-home sort of stuff. Skiing is hardly immoral. There are things that I would like to do, that I don't want to do with H right now because of the state of our relationship, that I don't know how to do without risking the M.

Being an isolated introvert when you just want to go play a round of putt-putt golf for some minimal social interaction is really hard.

BeingMe, I envy where you are now. I have a long road ahead, I know. But it's worth it to me to be able to spend as much time as I can with my son. he's my one and only, and he really is enjoyable. Just last night, we were engaged in a toe-wrestling match. I wouldn't have wanted to miss that for the world.

I'm not making my decision to stay out of fear, I'm sure of that. Sure, there would be some fear in that process itself, but that's not affecting my decision. I was "fearful" about going back to school but I'm still going.

I think the optimism that I have for my future far outweighs any fear I might have.

Yes, I agree, it makes me very sad. I feel like a little effort would go a long way. She feels like a little effort would just be followed by the expectation of more effort, and that she can't win.



Yes, that was a good analogy. It's all about the attitude, and that's where the effort comes into play. I would feel much better about it if she was making an effort to enjoy it, or find something to enjoy about it, even if it's not the football game. If you take someone to a football game and they came with a "three days of rain" type attitude, that's going to diminish your enjoyment. If they're not a big football fan and don't care about the game at all, but enjoy being outdoors, like the stadium food, and enjoy your enthusiasm or like making jokes with you about what's going on, then sure you can enjoy having them there even though the joy of football isn't shared. Sexually, she's coming in with a "this isn't for me" attitude, versus a "let me find out what I can enjoy about this" attitude.



I've thought about that many times. Wouldn't we all want to know that? "Would our spouse fight for us or walk away?" It's impossible to know the answer unless you can walk away and mean it. If it's just a test, the spouse can usually tell.

Generally, we don't want to be the first one to talk away -- you look like the bad guy, you have to do all the explaining to family and friends, etc. In my case, my W kind of gave me a "free pass" by cheating on me. I could walk away now without being the bad guy, and my reasons for doing so would not be a mystery to the casual observer.

I've often had the internal debate of whether she secretly or unconsciously wants me to leave so she can get out of this marriage without being solely responsible for breaking it up. That would certainly explain why she's not willing to do the work to make things better or closer.

Here's what I think would happen if I left W: I think she would be very upset and cry initially. I then think she'd feel like she deserves it, and would get very down on herself. That feeling of being unworthy would prevent her from making any overtures to get me back. She would definitely want a friendly relationship, and over time that might be enough for her. If I denied her the friendly relationship, I think she'd pretty quickly want to fill the void, but would look to do it with someone other than me because she could start with a clean slate without having to deal with her issues.

I had a discussion about this with MC -- I could argue that I'm depriving W of happiness by not walking away and letting her find someone with whom she'd feel less competitive, or who she might not think has high expectations. If she found someone who was maybe less of a "star" than she is, or someone without a driver personality type, and someone who was also LD, maybe she could find real happiness in that relationship and I'm just standing in the way. MC said that she might not feel "safe" with someone without my characteristics, she might not be able to respect someone who was less intelligent than she is, even though being "the smart one" would make her feel good. He said that at some point she chose me, and there was a reason for that, so chances are if I step aside and she finds someone else, she's going to encounter the same issues, because they're really her issues.

So yes, I'm thinking of leaving -- but I won't do it as a test. In general, one of my resolutions about marriage is that tests are a really bad idea. Just assume your spouse would pass the test and use that to inform how you're going to behave in the marriage.

I realize that's easy to say and hard to do. Last night W and I went to a movie, came home, watched some TV and had a nice conversation, I felt very connected. We went to bed fairly early, and W didn't seem like she was about to pass out. She started massaging my arms and hands which she never does. I took that to mean that she was available to ML. I started kissing her neck and she said "What are you doing? Oh, you want sex tonight?" Tone of voice = she did not want sex tonight.

So that was a challenge for me -- I don't want to "punish" W by rolling over and being pouty, but continuing to cuddle with her is going to make me nuts. It's a very, very difficult position to be in for me. My childish instinct is to pout and punish you, my desire is to be the better man and let it roll off my back, and my body is saying "this is not ok, you need some distance here to fall asleep". The SSM thing to do is to not take it personally and know that she loves me. One of my projects is to figure out how to deal with that situation without making W feel badly or punished, but it's extremely hard because of what the raging hormones are demanding of me in the moment.



Yeah, I really wasn't talking about work, those are the changes I've made in my approach to the marriage, I doing things right with a great degree of thought and presence.



I'm a huge skier and I know how good it makes me feel. It's one of the many things I did with W before we got married that she gave up. I think you have to find a way to do it. Not going because "H doesn't want you to" only leads to resentment. If it's ONLY a singles event, that might be an issue, but if it's singles and couples, then go for it. If H wants to join you, he can, but if he doesn't want to, then he can't really tell you not to, right? When you come home, you'll have a better attitude, you'll be happy, and you'll have things to talk about and to share, and that makes you more interesting. If the singles aspect is too big of an issue, start a meetup for women and/or married couples to do group ski trips. You don't have to get a bus, just carpool and figure out how many people you need to get discounted lift tickets. Become the meetup sponsor and you may enjoy your new hobby that much more. I also really enjoy skiing with my 13 and 11 year old, you can get out with S too.



If you're depriving yourself because of H, you will resent him whether you want to or not. Invite him to participate, and if he doesn't want to, then do it anyway.



Meetup.com can be a great GAL resource for dealing with that kind of thing. In my area there's a meetup for women who like to go shopping at the last minute. One of their rules is that there's never more than like 30 minutes notice.

Good luck Crazyville, I definitely wouldn't fear ending up where I am. I'm very happy with myself and the progress I've made. Sure I'm frustrated and hurt by the state of my marriage, but I'll take that over feeling badly about myself anyday.

Accuray

Why would you not be with your son anymore, CV? Surely, he would either go with you if you walk away, or you stay, and H leaves if you want a S and D?

I agree with Accuray, in that you should not deprive yourself of fun activities like skiing because your H doesn't want you to go. Don't let him control you. If he's jealous, then that's his problem, not yours. And, it would be a great activity to share with your son. And a great way to get out of the house, and exercise. I wish I can ski ... I'm a bunny hill skier. I tend to also stay at home for days on end, sometimes in my jammies all day. I'm trying to change that. Attending class is my GAL activity. I am studying toward a BA in Creative Writing, 'cause you can write wherever you are in the world.

Take care.

Just a thought ... you said, "I would decide one way if I plan to be married to him and a different way if I plan to be gone." It seems your mind is split, so it probably is a good idea that you stay until you can decide on a career/classes/whatever whether you stay or go. Hope I'm making sense here.

You certainly have a complex sitch, in as far as figuring out your W's motives/direction. Some of your points make a whole lot of sense, like her maybe giving you an easy out so she doesn't have to carry the whole burden. I'm really glad that you can say that your very happy, in light of the rest of the sitch! Well done!

Therein lies part of my problem. Right now, I don't want to invite H along. He would probably go, but with our current R makeup, he would ruin it for me.

Thanks for the hint on Meetup.com. I will check that out again. I did once before and there wasn't much in our area (no skiing in MO) for anything I would be interested in. It's been a while so I'll check it out again. Thanks!

BTW, I'm reading SSM, which is really ironic since I'm the LD partner and consider myself a WAS initially (now I don't know what I am.) Anyway, it's very enlightening in regards to a man's perspective on sex. Way more emotionally-based than I would have ever thought. Assuming men would agree -- in truth and not in just another way to get some. If it is accurate, I have a better understanding of your difficulty.

OTOH, I don't think women were the ones to come up with the phrase, "Wham! Bam! Thank you, Ma'am!" so perhaps you can understand OUR confusion.