Just updating my situation - thank you for all your help (and tough love) to date.
As I mentioned previously, W and I do not have kids so there is typically no reason to meet as our Ls handle all of the administrative matters. She lives a few blocks away in an apt. as she moved out of our condo in August 2011.
I haven't seen her in 2 1/2 months and we are meeting tonight over coffee (apparently decided she didn't want to go to the gym with me).
I know your intent behind choosing the gym but I can't say I'm surprised she declined that invite. If nothing else, a sense of closure is a goal and I can't see that happening in the gym...but hey, I NEED to go the gym more so maybe it's just my aversion.
It is strange how nervous I feel to see her. We were together for 10 years prior to the bomb, and this is by far the longest we've ever been apart. My thought is that she also has some level of anxiety over this meeting. It is just to exchange safe deposit keys and talk for a little bit on catching up and about moving forward, but based on our conversation on Friday, I do honestly think there is at least 1% of her which may not know if this is the best idea. She is not mean, and not overly nice...just cordial.
Not sure what you mean by this. Meeting is perhaps not a good idea to her, or divorcing?
I know one of the DB principles is not to use friends or family to help, but I did have lunch with one of my close guy friends last week (who my W really respects and likes), and told him that my W filed. Quick background on a previous thread: my W hasn't talked to or seen any of our common friends since last May and even skipped two of our mutual friends' weddings. My thought was that she was just trying to leave her old life behind as she was hanging out with all new friends from grad school and her old HS friends. A LOT of mind reading here^^^. And if she does have more in common with these other people, that's alright too...and if she wants to avoid awkward situations for the first year or so, that would not be surprising. It's not rare to see a couple divorce and then one of them drops off the face of the earth, for awhile, or for good...hard to say.
Are these folks who ONLY Knew your w through you? It makes a difference. If she was just "half a couple", that's more awkward than if she had her own r with them. Those folks may well reconnect when the dust settles.
But regardless, don't worry about it...it's NOT an issue in your sandbox, okay? It's her business, and you have your own things to work on.
Have you thought about thanking her for being the catalyst for change that you wanted/needed to make? (I think you mentioned it in a note.)
But That would be my focus - and how positive the changes are from the perspective of you being glad to make them, NOT to highlight them as
if you are saying NOW she can come home b/c "hey, all is well", you're all "fixed" and therefore she can just "forget the UNfun parts and just focus on the good stuff"...as you know, that's not realistically going to happen soon, if ever.
Remember, from what she wrote, true or not, at a minimum SHE believes those changes were long overdue.
Cussing her out, BL, that's just not acceptable. Yet my gut says You only recently began to own things like that, and she has NOT seen that yet. Like you said, all she has seen since she left is you STILL being angry and lashing out. She does not miss that.
So, shifting the focus to OM now, will only appear as if you are taking your eye off the ball. Keep your eye on the ball---which is YOU changing your life and getting rid of that temper tantrum behavior.
Apparently, my friend was really concerned about what? The marriage itself? That's touching. More people in our communities need to care. But beware of what she may say and be OPEN to hearing your w's take on things. It's valuable intel, not a bashing of you. see it as a gift if you can.
and his W (who was also a mutual friend with my W), reached out to see if my W would be interested in grabbing dinner to catch up. I know that they both want us to pull through. I found out today from my friend that they are having dinner tomorrow night. My W didn't mention this to me, and I don't plan on bringing it up tonight.
I am by no means hopeful and expecting the worst still, but I do find it a positive sign that my W is agreeing to have dinner with W of one of our close couple friends since she has basically ignored all of our mutual friends since she dropped the bomb.
it's clearly not negative. But be prepared for her to tell them exactly why she left. Be ready for her to sound very resolute.
But nothing is written in stone. And people do remarry even after it ends...as I think I mentioned, 2 relatives of mine did and
I THINK I read that it happens between 10-15% of the time. Not sure of that stat though.
If and ONLY IF, something comes up and she bails on you,--maybe b/c she fears confrontation with you
try to get her to see that you just want to reconnect and catch up b/c she was/is such a big part of your life, AND or, to get some closure.
In any case, when I meet W tonight, I'm going to do my best job of DB'ing yet. No judgments, anger, punitive words, nothing. Just listening and validating. It is really one of my few chances left to show a 180, so I really need to use this opportunity well.
How about a compliment that you really mean sincerely?? Tell her a few of those.
What were her love languages? And yours? Insights or just telling her you read that book will help.
Speaking from a place of love in your heart will not do any damage at this point. At least imo.
Good luck, I'll keep my fingers crossed.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Do not under any circumstances ask for a second chance or another date or a 'couldn't we go to counseling' or anything like that.
You are not helping matters by obsessively pursuing her in your mind.
You show her respect at this time by accepting her decision to file for divorce, by (ONLY if you haven't already) apologizing by hurting her by not being the husband you should have been for her and wishing her the best in her future (but with no expectation of anything, just to apologize and don't do this a second time if you have already done so). If she looks good, let her know so, then, after you are done with your business, be the first to leave and wish her a great day/night.
Then get the focus off her and how you will now live your life.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
So I met with W and we talked for about 45 minutes. She was very cordial and she did give me my key back. We started talking a little bit about what is going on in our lives she did show concern that I still didn't have a car (she had a car that was hers before we separated so she took it and I haven't bought a new one). She asked why my parents just couldn't give me one of theirs since they have three and there are only two of them. I said thanks, but don't need one right now. I did apologize for things I did in the past, and she did mention that there were a few times when I drank too much and said hurtful things which I validated (mind you, some of these things were when I was 25 or 26 and I am now 32), and she said well "it is what it is", no use in re-hashing things. She did mention that I looked good and that she's glad to hear that things are going well.
Finally, she asked if I had spoken with my L. I said yes, and she asked when we could finalize things.
She did say she cares for me and wants happiness for me, but these words seem to ring hollow for me (not out of spite, but because her actions don't really follow this).
While I understand that I shouldn't bring OM up and didn't, it did bother me a bit that while she was being nice to me and acting like she cared, I knew this wasn't a positive for my situation. I couldn't help but think it is just easiest for her to act nice because she think i'm in the dark about everything.
I know, I know...this is absolutely NOT the way to think, but I think to some extent it is reality. That is why I think it is much harder for DB'ing to work when there is an OM involved. I truly think that the WAW will say anything nice to let the LBS down easy and reduce their guilt and state various reasons for leaving to justify their actions regardless of if those were the true reasons that they decided to leave the M (she even mentioned that she wanted to take dance lessons and I didn't want to).
I'm certainly not going to say that this predicament is not my fault, but I know this board is all about trying to help both LBS for themselves and in the process if they can help the M, even better. I hate having to hold something in like this. Maybe it is the right idea, but for me, it just seems like our conversations are so superficial and hollow.
25 - I did tell her that being apart from her like this has made me realize how special she really is (the compliment that you asked me to let her know). She responded with an uncomfortable smile and said "i'm not that special.
As for your question above regarding my W being friends with them or just being my other half, she definitely had her own relationship with them.
I will be curious to hear what she tells my friend's W tomorrow night. I think that we did have a nice conversation, but she definitely is still all about moving forward with the D.
So I met with W and we talked for about 45 minutes. She was very cordial and she did give me my key back. We started talking a little bit about what is going on in our lives she did show concern -----I did apologize for things I did in the past, and she did mention that there were a few times when I drank too much and said hurtful things which I validated (mind you, some of these things were when I was 25 or 26 and I am now 32), I'm so glad you didn't argue or debate the relevance of the timing of the events. Clearly she was VERY hurt by them, and probably really freaked out by those episodes. I think she's using them as clear examples of behavior that really really truly deep down turned her very OFF of the marriage rather than evidence of you today...(Maybe you could have said "so sorry I hurt you like that and God knows if I had it to do over again, there are LOTS of things I'd do DIFFERENTLY")
OR Maybe that's when she began to feel the marital walls crumblings...especially b/c she wanted children, and you mentioned her parent's "clock" and her clock is ticking.
BL Sometimes people who lose their temper or bully others, think a later apology suffices, or that just the passage of time, eases the pain. It doesn't.
It's like the temper people think that should more or less "erase" the event. Never to be remembered...but it's Not so. It's frightening for a wife to feel unsafe with a husband. It goes to the core of her being part of a couple.
But still, it sounds as if You handled hearing a really tough memory, as well as you could. Good job.
and she said well "it is what it is", no use in re-hashing things. She did mention that I looked good and that she's glad to hear that things are going well.
that's ^^^^not an unfair summation. Glad she didn't have a grievance list or litany of complaints. And it's nice she commented on your appearance. Of course if she notices or acknowledges your changes, that's even better .
Finally, she asked if I had spoken with my L. I said yes, and she asked when we could finalize things.
She did say she cares for me and wants happiness for me, but these words seem to ring hollow for me (not out of spite, but because her actions don't really follow this). How so? Why do you say SHE is being inconsistent? (Couldn't she say that about you? Seriously, you mistreated her, but claimed to want to stay married, but you reacted to her in anger and with more hurtful words.)
You say the words ring hollow -- B/c she hasn't returned to you but honestly, Why would she?
No offense meant BL--I know you are hurting.
But you got Her letter back in August & she outlined what she saw as the problems in the m. I don't know when you read the DB books but You DID nothing to change, and you repeatedly spurned her overtures at friendship.
You admitted you were angry & being punitive.
So be fair now. Why would she want to work on the marriage? Forget OM for Now ---as much as you WANT OM to be "the real problem", you know he's not. IMO, this but is just more of "not my fault" from you again.
With or without the OM - you've admitted that your behavior was darn lousy in parts of the marriage, (even now you minimize it or say it was long ago. Even now, imo, you do not get it.)
When she left you, your angry vindictive behavior did NOT improve or change! How is that about anyone but you?
I'm very sorry to say that b/c I know it's a tough pill to swallow. But you must see this or all the pain you are in will be for nothing.
And That angry behavior only stopped when? This month? Last month?
Your w saw the behavior before, she told you it hurt (cursing at your w of course it hurts so how much did she need to "communicate" that to you? I mean you knew it was a lousy thing to do, right? Maybe you grew up in a family that did that and maybe her family was quieter, but either way....)
as she began to plan motherhood, your behavioral outbursts took on a new importance to her. I understand that totally. Do you? [i]You do not have to agree with her but do you see why she'd feel your behavior matters even more if you are a father?
So can you see why a man with a bad temper would make a would-be-mother, MORE determined to improve the marriage, or leave it?
[/i] You simply must start seeing things from her point of view== even if you don't agree with her take on things.
Only recently have you showed her any behavior that indicates change. Up til a few weeks ago, your behavior confirmed all of her fears and concerns.
In one large study, Women report that the two most important qualities in a h is fidelity and security. "Security"....investigating mysterious noises downstairs...providing a roof over our heads and food on the table, and of course, We want to feel physically safe with our men, not just financially secure.
In August, her letter spelled out to you how you mistreated her, including the outbursts in which you cursed at her or said some cruel things including profanity aimed at her.
Instead of owning that or changing it THEN-you did more of the same old...and now
Here we are AGAIN-- you want the focus off of your mistakes, and back on OM....
you are still dangerously into the blame game-keeps you stuck. Prevents you from growing or improving.
I know it's very very hard to admit to oneself that you've blown something big in life. I get it. I have blown something very important to me (my father told me when he was going to die and he urged me to get there.
I had just seen him the week before, we lived 2000 miles apart and I had started a new job a month earlier...I delayed. He died when he said he would).
The remorse and shame can be debilitating. But hey, when hospice said, for the 4th time, that my mil's time was near, each time my h got on a plane at my urging. And she died in his arms as she/he wanted. So yeah, I learned a lesson and passed it on.
No one wants to be in that regretful position. But we're all human, and we MUST learn from our mistakes
OR
repeat them. That's the choice you have now.
When you bring up OM, you are essentially saying you are Not that interested in learning how much you hurt your marriage,
or how wounded your wife felt OR for how long, and how she felt wronged.
Heck, aren't you interested in how you can improve as a mate? She's such a resource for that and merely asking her that question reflects so much soul searching on your end. ...
but I think it's just too painful for you to look in the mirror. I get that. But after all this pain, it just compounds the tragedy to stay stuck in the blame game. So given that you didn't probe for information about how SHE FELT when married to you or how you could change as a man... -
I would Not expect HER to change her path for you.
Remember The reason most 2nd m's end in divorce is b/c the spouse has NOT Learned or owned their role in the demise of their m, even when they are the LBSer...
The wounded spouse goes out to remarry and "prove" their worthiness as mates...but if they did NOT learn from their mistakes in the first m... nothing improves so in time, their flaws resurface and another m ends.
Two of my sisters, one older and one younger, both had h's leave them. My older sister was m for 22 years, was a very giving w, worked full time the whole m, AND put h thru law school, they had 3 kids she mostly raised as her h was busy working. He was a discontent by nature, and irritable, easily stressed and apparently he was a serial cheater. My older sister handled the blow with dignity and grace and never said "how dare he!!", etc.
Later on it became apparent that her ex h has deep regrets about how he treated her and how his new wife is Not as kind or loving as my sister was/is. He gets that he blew it, and he said so.
Whereas My younger sister's h left her and married OW 30 days later (the legal minimum). She thinks she did nothing to contribute to the demise of her m. ...My younger sister sums up her marriage ending "b/c of OW"....as if all was great before OW came along. She never mentions that After the wedding, she gained about 75 lbs., she had no kids and she never held a job in 13 years). Her h was a pilot and very attractive. She put out a negative vibe for about 3 years and really not a lot of good things went her way. She attracted what she put out and it was sour and dour.
My older sister saw a T and she learned to set boundaries better in her new r's so that she won't tolerate that type of hair trigger temper and over reactions of her exh, again. She remarried and she is happier now than she ever could have been with her first h, so he really did her a favor.
My younger sister talked to a T about her xh...not about herself, just her h. When the t wanted to address my sister's issues, how she effectively sabotaged her own m, my sister switched counselors. I really don't believe she has faced it to this day. It's up to you how you handle this. Which path do you want? Life is short.
BL, you have said You know you need to change. Your past behavior seriously damaged your marriage. Own that. Learn from it. Move on. If you can rebuild a friendship with her, then in time she will see the changes in you as you mature and the new you is revealed.
While I understand that I shouldn't bring OM up and didn't, it did bother me a bit that while she was being nice to me and acting like she cared, I knew this wasn't a positive for my situation. I couldn't help but think it is just easiest for her to act nice because she think i'm in the dark about everything.
well she's in a lose lose with you on this.
What would you prefer? You want her to say "Btw, I have been with SUCH a great new man. He is a great lover and provider and HE makes me feel safe. Come to think of it, now I'm in a hurry to get back to him, so here's your key, see ya!"?? (Feel better? I thought not.)
See, I think you want her to be wrong.
When her letter was clear and calm last summer, you lashed out. Now her present behavior is cordial to you but she seems resolute SO you still want to find fault with that, even though down deep you know the alternatives are worse. Now she's wrong for being nice? Come on BL...you've grown more than this.
I know, I know...this is absolutely NOT the way to think, but I think to some extent it is reality. I don't understand this^^^ sentence. What is the reality?
You think she's being nicer to you BECAUSE there is OM?
I don't get what the complaint is in there.
What bothers you about her being kind to you now? What difference does the OM make vis a vis her being cordial to you?
That is why I think it is much harder for DB'ing to work when there is an OM involved. I truly think that the WAW will say anything nice to let the LBS down easy and any decent person does that^^^^!!!....Why would they rub it in your face? ( IS that something You would do to her?)
I honestly don't get your point about how it bothers you that she has OM AND is being kind to you...
look around. There are horror stories here about how the WAW throws the OM in the face of her h specifically to hurt the h.
Or she brings OM around and engages in PDA and shows LOTS of "LUV" to OM in front of the h AND their friends..to humiliate her h, or to "teach him a lesson"/punish etc...it's transparent and vindictive and cruel. Your w has done none of that. Telling you about OM would hurt YOU, not her. Given the situation, I think She's being decent.
Is it possible BL, that you want her to wrong YOU?
Why do you think that would be?
reduce their guilt and state various reasons for leaving to justify
1) don't over estimate her sense of guilt. Since you admit her concerns were valid (though you still minimize them after admitting them. It's like you can only cope with so much remorse before you convert it into being someone else's fault) and
2) she had reasons for leaving and you know them. Those were reasons that existed before and apart from OM.
their actions regardless of if those were the true reasons that they decided to leave the M (she even mentioned that she wanted to take dance lessons and I didn't want to).
One of us has amnesia. She did NOT leave you b/c you didn't want to take dance lessons.
Your own thread reveals that in the past, you have shown her a bad temper, you said cruel & profane things to her or about her when you got angry, sometimes you had been drinking, but sometimes you were sober & you still said them. IMO, That hurt her deeply & shook her to the core. You were verbally abusive, sounded self centered and admitted you did not treat her well & took her for granted.
I'm certainly not going to say that this predicament is not my fault, but BUT you want to say it and believe it anyhow.
I know this board is all about trying to help both LBS for themselves and in the process if they can help the M, even better.
correct...remember this^^^^ when it gets hard to hear.
I hate having to hold something in like this. Maybe it is the right idea, but for me, it just seems like our conversations are so superficial and hollow.
Sounds like you didn't say what you needed to say. I don't mean about OM either...
Why not tell her about the man you want to become, and clearly and confidently tell her you are NOT the man you were? Me thinks it's because you still don't get it.
Sorry BL, but Whenever you really grab at the root cause of her leaving, you let it slip out of your fingers. Why?
Well, IMO
it's too much for you to handle, even now. Seems you find it too painful and perhaps even shameful - so you veer off and go in circles about OM or the "real cause" of her leaving, as if she was mysterious about it.
She left b/c she was unhappy AND she could not see having a child with you. We know she didn't feel safe with you. And she wants to be a mother. Soooo, Given the lack of visible change on your part, she probably felt she had no choice.
OM just confirmed that there are men out there that would not treat her that way. I've already attached a letter from a WAW to her h so you can learn to see things from her point of view. Do you remember it? Maybe I didn't post it here...
Either way the message didn't sink in. If it had, you would not be asking and saying these things again.
Saying "DBing doesn't work if there's OP" is inaccurate (though the more factors going against you, the harder it is to repair, of course...)
but it's ilike saying "It won't matter anyhow so NOTHING I do will make a difference" (in getting her back) and it's just a cop out for you.
You seem to believe if the OM were not there, then what? You think you two would be together and happy? I don't. Your w had an awakening about your temper and the vision of you being the father of her kids did not mesh well with her. Plus you seem to believe with OM, now the problems are all OFF of you.
Why not learn from this what NOT to do and what TO DO in a healthy marriage? She could be such a good source of information for you. A resource if you will.
25 - I did tell her that being apart from her like this has made me realize how special she really is (the compliment that you asked me to let her know). She responded with an uncomfortable smile and said "i'm not that special.
I'm glad you tried. So you know-many women hear generic comments like that, which is why I said make it sincere and real. Specifics are the best kind of compliments to give.
I know your intentions were good. But "special" isn't specific enough and that means to her it was not believable coming from you. It comes off as a tactical remark you can check off as "done"...
Had you said, for instance, something truly specific to HER that she does, or knows or expresses...such as a talent she has like singing or playing the drums or violin, a love of music and in depth knowledge of all kinds like jazz and opera-what a depth to have with such eclectic taste! Or a penchant for fine cuisine-is she a great chef or an adventurous novice?
(You might have said you miss her cooking -or her enjoying your cooking--so much that you are taking a class in Italian cooking-that hypothetical is a specific compliment to her, AND shows change in YOU)
Is she a stylish dresser, still staying in good shape, taking care of herself... she's smart at work & got that promotion, she is great at helping different groups resolve conflict at work, has a gift for getting along with wildly different people, a joi de vivre when she works or travels or meets new people, ...
I'd bet a lot of these very traits are hers. And a million others I didn't mention. Specificity enhances credibility.
So saying "I now see how special you are" w/no follow up, isn't quite the pronounced change in YOU that she needs to see/hear.
And when she said she wasn't "that special", you had the chance to show her the thought you had put into the compliment,
by supplementing it with specific facts about her...instead you let it pass...
Why do you think you did that?
As for your question above regarding my W being friends with them or just being my other half, she definitely had her own relationship with them.
it's great she's reconnecting! That may allow for some positive memories to resurface in her. And your mutual friends will help you reveal your changes-indirectly- b/c they'll see them in you! When they run into her, you can be sure they'll mention that you "look good, got that promotion, bought a car," etc...she'll learn of it. Trust me on that.
I will be curious to hear what she tells my friend's W tomorrow night. I think that we did have a nice conversation, but she definitely is still all about moving forward with the D.
Thanks again for all the well wishes.
Sorry she's going ahead with it, but she really has no "intel" that you are changing and you only recently began on your journey... as for what she tells others, first remember...you have NO control over what she tells others...so let that go.
Besides, what would you have her say?
That everything in the marriage was great but then for NO reasson at all, she left you for this OM, who pursued her and she fell under his spell?
Would you prefer she say she finally met "THE Right guy"?
We both know she's too kind to bash you much, so don't count on her spending a lot of energy justifying by hurting your rep.
She'll say you grew apart, "had less in common/were fighting a lot" and maybe it's "best this way" etc...frankly, it's the classy thing to say, given the givens.
You think that all was well until OM showed up? No...but it might be what you want to tell yourself, or others.
But see, then that would mean you learned nothing from all this pain and
the reality is, if you want to reduce the chance of having your heart broken again-
learn where you went wrong in this marriage and grow from it.
She'll hear of your changes if you make them. Good luck and keep posting and working on you.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
So I met with W and we talked for about 45 minutes. She was very cordial and she did give me my key back. We started talking a little bit about what is going on in our lives she did show concern -----I did apologize for things I did in the past, and she did mention that there were a few times when I drank too much and said hurtful things which I validated (mind you, some of these things were when I was 25 or 26 and I am now 32), I'm so glad you didn't argue or debate the relevance of the timing of the events. Clearly she was VERY hurt by them, and probably really freaked out by those episodes. I think she's using them as clear examples of behavior that really really truly deep down turned her very OFF of the marriage rather than evidence of you today...(Maybe you could have said "so sorry I hurt you like that and God knows if I had it to do over again, there are LOTS of things I'd do DIFFERENTLY")
OR Maybe that's when she began to feel the marital walls crumblings...especially b/c she wanted children, and you mentioned her parent's "clock" and her clock is ticking.
BL Sometimes people who lose their temper or bully others, think a later apology suffices, or that just the passage of time, eases the pain. It doesn't.
It's like the temper people think that should more or less "erase" the event. Never to be remembered...but it's Not so. It's frightening for a wife to feel unsafe with a husband. It goes to the core of her being part of a couple.
But still, it sounds as if You handled hearing a really tough memory, as well as you could. Good job.
and she said well "it is what it is", no use in re-hashing things. She did mention that I looked good and that she's glad to hear that things are going well.
that's ^^^^not an unfair summation. Glad she didn't have a grievance list or litany of complaints. And it's nice she commented on your appearance. Of course if she notices or acknowledges your changes, that's even better .
Finally, she asked if I had spoken with my L. I said yes, and she asked when we could finalize things.
She did say she cares for me and wants happiness for me, but these words seem to ring hollow for me (not out of spite, but because her actions don't really follow this). How so? Why do you say SHE is being inconsistent? (Couldn't she say that about you? Seriously, you mistreated her, but claimed to want to stay married, but you reacted to her in anger and with more hurtful words.)
You say the words ring hollow -- B/c she hasn't returned to you but honestly, Why would she?
No offense meant BL--I know you are hurting.
But you got Her letter back in August & she outlined what she saw as the problems in the m. I don't know when you read the DB books but You DID nothing to change, and you repeatedly spurned her overtures at friendship.
You admitted you were angry & being punitive.
So be fair now. Why would she want to work on the marriage? Forget OM for Now ---as much as you WANT OM to be "the real problem", you know he's not. IMO, this but is just more of "not my fault" from you again.
With or without the OM - you've admitted that your behavior was darn lousy in parts of the marriage, (even now you minimize it or say it was long ago. Even now, imo, you do not get it.)
When she left you, your angry vindictive behavior did NOT improve or change! How is that about anyone but you?
I'm very sorry to say that b/c I know it's a tough pill to swallow. But you must see this or all the pain you are in will be for nothing.
And That angry behavior only stopped when? This month? Last month?
Your w saw the behavior before, she told you it hurt (cursing at your w of course it hurts so how much did she need to "communicate" that to you? I mean you knew it was a lousy thing to do, right? Maybe you grew up in a family that did that and maybe her family was quieter, but either way....)
as she began to plan motherhood, your behavioral outbursts took on a new importance to her. I understand that totally. Do you? [i]You do not have to agree with her but do you see why she'd feel your behavior matters even more if you are a father?
So can you see why a man with a bad temper would make a would-be-mother, MORE determined to improve the marriage, or leave it?
[/i] You simply must start seeing things from her point of view== even if you don't agree with her take on things.
Only recently have you showed her any behavior that indicates change. Up til a few weeks ago, your behavior confirmed all of her fears and concerns.
In one large study, Women report that the two most important qualities in a h is fidelity and security. "Security"....investigating mysterious noises downstairs...providing a roof over our heads and food on the table, and of course, We want to feel physically safe with our men, not just financially secure.
In August, her letter spelled out to you how you mistreated her, including the outbursts in which you cursed at her or said some cruel things including profanity aimed at her.
Instead of owning that or changing it THEN-you did more of the same old...and now
Here we are AGAIN-- you want the focus off of your mistakes, and back on OM....
you are still dangerously into the blame game-keeps you stuck. Prevents you from growing or improving.
I know it's very very hard to admit to oneself that you've blown something big in life. I get it. I have blown something very important to me (my father told me when he was going to die and he urged me to get there.
I had just seen him the week before, we lived 2000 miles apart and I had started a new job a month earlier...I delayed. He died when he said he would).
The remorse and shame can be debilitating. But hey, when hospice said, for the 4th time, that my mil's time was near, each time my h got on a plane at my urging. And she died in his arms as she/he wanted. So yeah, I learned a lesson and passed it on.
No one wants to be in that regretful position. But we're all human, and we MUST learn from our mistakes
OR
repeat them. That's the choice you have now.
When you bring up OM, you are essentially saying you are Not that interested in learning how much you hurt your marriage,
or how wounded your wife felt OR for how long, and how she felt wronged.
Heck, aren't you interested in how you can improve as a mate? She's such a resource for that and merely asking her that question reflects so much soul searching on your end. ...
but I think it's just too painful for you to look in the mirror. I get that. But after all this pain, it just compounds the tragedy to stay stuck in the blame game. So given that you didn't probe for information about how SHE FELT when married to you or how you could change as a man... -
I would Not expect HER to change her path for you.
Remember The reason most 2nd m's end in divorce is b/c the spouse has NOT Learned or owned their role in the demise of their m, even when they are the LBSer...
The wounded spouse goes out to remarry and "prove" their worthiness as mates...but if they did NOT learn from their mistakes in the first m... nothing improves so in time, their flaws resurface and another m ends.
Two of my sisters, one older and one younger, both had h's leave them. My older sister was m for 22 years, was a very giving w, worked full time the whole m, AND put h thru law school, they had 3 kids she mostly raised as her h was busy working. He was a discontent by nature, and irritable, easily stressed and apparently he was a serial cheater. My older sister handled the blow with dignity and grace and never said "how dare he!!", etc.
Later on it became apparent that her ex h has deep regrets about how he treated her and how his new wife is Not as kind or loving as my sister was/is. He gets that he blew it, and he said so.
Whereas My younger sister's h left her and married OW 30 days later (the legal minimum). She thinks she did nothing to contribute to the demise of her m. ...My younger sister sums up her marriage ending "b/c of OW"....as if all was great before OW came along. She never mentions that After the wedding, she gained about 75 lbs., she had no kids and she never held a job in 13 years). Her h was a pilot and very attractive. She put out a negative vibe for about 3 years and really not a lot of good things went her way. She attracted what she put out and it was sour and dour.
My older sister saw a T and she learned to set boundaries better in her new r's so that she won't tolerate that type of hair trigger temper and over reactions of her exh, again. She remarried and she is happier now than she ever could have been with her first h, so he really did her a favor.
My younger sister talked to a T about her xh...not about herself, just her h. When the t wanted to address my sister's issues, how she effectively sabotaged her own m, my sister switched counselors. I really don't believe she has faced it to this day. It's up to you how you handle this. Which path do you want? Life is short.
BL, you have said You know you need to change. Your past behavior seriously damaged your marriage. Own that. Learn from it. Move on. If you can rebuild a friendship with her, then in time she will see the changes in you as you mature and the new you is revealed.
While I understand that I shouldn't bring OM up and didn't, it did bother me a bit that while she was being nice to me and acting like she cared, I knew this wasn't a positive for my situation. I couldn't help but think it is just easiest for her to act nice because she think i'm in the dark about everything.
well she's in a lose lose with you on this.
What would you prefer? You want her to say "Btw, I have been with SUCH a great new man. He is a great lover and provider and HE makes me feel safe. Come to think of it, now I'm in a hurry to get back to him, so here's your key, see ya!"?? (Feel better? I thought not.)
See, I think you want her to be wrong.
When her letter was clear and calm last summer, you lashed out. Now her present behavior is cordial to you but she seems resolute SO you still want to find fault with that, even though down deep you know the alternatives are worse. Now she's wrong for being nice? Come on BL...you've grown more than this.
I know, I know...this is absolutely NOT the way to think, but I think to some extent it is reality. I don't understand this^^^ sentence. What is the reality?
You think she's being nicer to you BECAUSE there is OM?
I don't get what the complaint is in there.
What bothers you about her being kind to you now? What difference does the OM make vis a vis her being cordial to you?
That is why I think it is much harder for DB'ing to work when there is an OM involved. I truly think that the WAW will say anything nice to let the LBS down easy and any decent person does that^^^^!!!....Why would they rub it in your face? ( IS that something You would do to her?)
I honestly don't get your point about how it bothers you that she has OM AND is being kind to you...
look around. There are horror stories here about how the WAW throws the OM in the face of her h specifically to hurt the h.
Or she brings OM around and engages in PDA and shows LOTS of "LUV" to OM in front of the h AND their friends..to humiliate her h, or to "teach him a lesson"/punish etc...it's transparent and vindictive and cruel. Your w has done none of that. Telling you about OM would hurt YOU, not her. Given the situation, I think She's being decent.
Is it possible BL, that you want her to wrong YOU?
Why do you think that would be?
reduce their guilt and state various reasons for leaving to justify
1) don't over estimate her sense of guilt. Since you admit her concerns were valid (though you still minimize them after admitting them. It's like you can only cope with so much remorse before you convert it into being someone else's fault) and
2) she had reasons for leaving and you know them. Those were reasons that existed before and apart from OM.
their actions regardless of if those were the true reasons that they decided to leave the M (she even mentioned that she wanted to take dance lessons and I didn't want to).
One of us has amnesia. She did NOT leave you b/c you didn't want to take dance lessons.
Your own thread reveals that in the past, you have shown her a bad temper, you said cruel & profane things to her or about her when you got angry, sometimes you had been drinking, but sometimes you were sober & you still said them. IMO, That hurt her deeply & shook her to the core. You were verbally abusive, sounded self centered and admitted you did not treat her well & took her for granted.
I'm certainly not going to say that this predicament is not my fault, but BUT you want to say it and believe it anyhow.
I know this board is all about trying to help both LBS for themselves and in the process if they can help the M, even better.
correct...remember this^^^^ when it gets hard to hear.
I hate having to hold something in like this. Maybe it is the right idea, but for me, it just seems like our conversations are so superficial and hollow.
Sounds like you didn't say what you needed to say. I don't mean about OM either...
Why not tell her about the man you want to become, and clearly and confidently tell her you are NOT the man you were? Me thinks it's because you still don't get it.
Sorry BL, but Whenever you really grab at the root cause of her leaving, you let it slip out of your fingers. Why?
Well, IMO
it's too much for you to handle, even now. Seems you find it too painful and perhaps even shameful - so you veer off and go in circles about OM or the "real cause" of her leaving, as if she was mysterious about it.
She left b/c she was unhappy AND she could not see having a child with you. We know she didn't feel safe with you. And she wants to be a mother. Soooo, Given the lack of visible change on your part, she probably felt she had no choice.
OM just confirmed that there are men out there that would not treat her that way. I've already attached a letter from a WAW to her h so you can learn to see things from her point of view. Do you remember it? Maybe I didn't post it here...
Either way the message didn't sink in. If it had, you would not be asking and saying these things again.
Saying "DBing doesn't work if there's OP" is inaccurate (though the more factors going against you, the harder it is to repair, of course...)
but it's ilike saying "It won't matter anyhow so NOTHING I do will make a difference" (in getting her back) and it's just a cop out for you.
You seem to believe if the OM were not there, then what? You think you two would be together and happy? I don't. Your w had an awakening about your temper and the vision of you being the father of her kids did not mesh well with her. Plus you seem to believe with OM, now the problems are all OFF of you.
Why not learn from this what NOT to do and what TO DO in a healthy marriage? She could be such a good source of information for you. A resource if you will.
25 - I did tell her that being apart from her like this has made me realize how special she really is (the compliment that you asked me to let her know). She responded with an uncomfortable smile and said "i'm not that special.
I'm glad you tried. So you know-many women hear generic comments like that, which is why I said make it sincere and real. Specifics are the best kind of compliments to give.
I know your intentions were good. But "special" isn't specific enough and that means to her it was not believable coming from you. It comes off as a tactical remark you can check off as "done"...
Had you said, for instance, something truly specific to HER that she does, or knows or expresses...such as a talent she has like singing or playing the drums or violin, a love of music and in depth knowledge of all kinds like jazz and opera-what a depth to have with such eclectic taste! Or a penchant for fine cuisine-is she a great chef or an adventurous novice?
(You might have said you miss her cooking -or her enjoying your cooking--so much that you are taking a class in Italian cooking-that hypothetical is a specific compliment to her, AND shows change in YOU)
Is she a stylish dresser, still staying in good shape, taking care of herself... she's smart at work & got that promotion, she is great at helping different groups resolve conflict at work, has a gift for getting along with wildly different people, a joi de vivre when she works or travels or meets new people, ...
I'd bet a lot of these very traits are hers. And a million others I didn't mention. Specificity enhances credibility.
So saying "I now see how special you are" w/no follow up, isn't quite the pronounced change in YOU that she needs to see/hear.
And when she said she wasn't "that special", you had the chance to show her the thought you had put into the compliment,
by supplementing it with specific facts about her...instead you let it pass...
Why do you think you did that?
As for your question above regarding my W being friends with them or just being my other half, she definitely had her own relationship with them.
it's great she's reconnecting! That may allow for some positive memories to resurface in her. And your mutual friends will help you reveal your changes-indirectly- b/c they'll see them in you! When they run into her, you can be sure they'll mention that you "look good, got that promotion, bought a car," etc...she'll learn of it. Trust me on that.
I will be curious to hear what she tells my friend's W tomorrow night. I think that we did have a nice conversation, but she definitely is still all about moving forward with the D.
Thanks again for all the well wishes.
Sorry she's going ahead with it, but she really has no "intel" that you are changing and you only recently began on your journey... as for what she tells others, first remember...you have NO control over what she tells others...so let that go.
Besides, what would you have her say?
That everything in the marriage was great but then for NO reasson at all, she left you for this OM, who pursued her and she fell under his spell?
Would you prefer she say she finally met "THE Right guy"?
We both know she's too kind to bash you much, so don't count on her spending a lot of energy justifying by hurting your rep.
She'll say you grew apart, "had less in common/were fighting a lot" and maybe it's "best this way" etc...frankly, it's the classy thing to say, given the givens.
You think that all was well until OM showed up? No...but it might be what you want to tell yourself, or others.
But see, then that would mean you learned nothing from all this pain and
the reality is, if you want to reduce the chance of having your heart broken again-
learn where you went wrong in this marriage and grow from it.
She'll hear of your changes if you make them. Good luck and keep posting and working on you.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
wow - a lot to think about. Thank you for all the valuable feedback. You are right that I am hurt by OM's presence. It probably will take a lot of time to get over something like this, but in the meantime, I am trying not to let it affect my conversations with W. In my journaling I do bring it up often, but I try to ignore that thought in my interactions with W (though I can understand how it may affect my tone or my words).
While I know I'm not "fixed" or anything of that nature, I do know that I will be a lot better off in my next relationship. Still have to keep working on myself to even further improve...
Just found out from my friend that my W postponed dinner with his W until Monday. She said she had to work late.
This morning, W sent me a note basically asking me if I've contacted my L yet so we can get this finalized (basically what she left off with last night).
I responded and was open and honest and basically said, I don't feel the need to push this process any faster than it needs to go and I think there are better alternatives that will make us both better off in the long-run. I feel as though I've been respectful during this process and I wish you'd respect me the same.
She responded with "I do appreciate your respectful behavior.
I'm not sure what you think will make me better off in the long-run.
I don't think we are moving this process too quickly-- in fact, i've been moved out for almost 6 months, so finalizing this is appropriate, given that i've made my decision, it's not going to change, and therefore, it's in the best interest of both of us to just move on"
This e-mail is pretty resolute and I haven't responded and was just going to stay silent, but I couldn't help but notice if the second comment was an invitation to actually respond with something that I think would be better (not come back to me, etc.), but something softer that she might be able to ponder a bit, or if it was just small talk and she accidentally asked a question.
I don't want to pursue, but whether she meant to or not, I think she asked a question, even though the last paragraph basically invalidates me presenting any response to her.
I am not taking this as any positive, but I do want to take advantage of any perceived crack that she allows me at this point, whether or not she meant to, without pursuing.
.