Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers hi everyone! newbie here....could this be a MLC?

Sometimes, the WAS gets angrier because he/she feels the changes are too little, too late, and it might not last. That's why you have to be consistent, and be true to yourself. His switch on having a family is huge, and I would think that that is more to worry about then your untidiness, clinginess, etc. How much resentment will you have against him, if he leaves you later, and you are unable to have children then, with someone else.

Things must get worse before they get better. it is part of the script.

I saw what you were looikg at on e-how and my suggestion is that is not all there is to it.
COVERT DEPRESSION is another form of masked depression and might help you understand it a little better.
Another words everything seems happy and wonderful but looking beneath the surface it is not.

Yes his mother passing away is part of this problem.
Even more so the question might be how much are you like his mother or the opposite of his mother.

As far as the search engine here on DB, it does not work properly. Google is much better to find anything even here on DB.

We are not allowed to post outside links here as it violates the TOS, so it is up to you to do your own research.

However there are many DB links on MLC on the board.

Hope this helps.

i see...that's a good point. i didnt realize i was trying to "mind read" h. since we are currently not communicating very much, i guess im trying to figure out whats wrong or what's causing our current situation, so that i can try and make things better.

i have been thinking a lot about what things i would actually want to change in myself. to a certain extent, i think all the things H mentioned do have some merit. it's true that occasionally i do talk too much, am clingy, insecure, etc, and i would like to improve on those things. i think this whole getting a life thing has helped in terms of the clinginess since i won't "need" him so much if i have my own things going on and own activities to look forward to. also, in the past, i may have been guilty of wanting to do almost everything together. the thing is though, H never seemed to mind doing things together in the past. though in his recent spew, he said that he doesn't want to do "everything" together any more, and that as far as he can tell, he's always just tolerated me. im guessing (or hoping) that that is just the MLC talking? because the rational part of me knows that we had some good times together and that not all our shared moments were bad! i think i would know myself well enough to not marry someone who merely tolerated me at every turn.


i've learned the past few weeks that though it doesn't come naturally to me, i can be quiet too. this whole process of trying to detach kind of goes hand in hand with that.

yeah, i have thought a lot about that. i guess a large part of me is hoping that this switch is mlc motivated, and that once he comes out of it, his feelings might change. i'm still struggling with my feelings on this to be perfectly honest.

thanks so much for your perspective on this and the reassurance that its normal for things to possibly get worse before things can get better. your suggestion to look up covert depression seems like that could definitely be a real possibility. h definitely has mentioned being depressed a few months ago though he thinks hes gotten out of that. what he still seems to have a lot of is resentment and anger (most of it directed at me).

regarding your question on how much like his mother i am, i do remember him saying in the past that one of the reasons he loved me was because i was caring and loving like his mother was. i know that in the past he and his mother were especially close and that he loved her deeply. however, now, during this phase, he looks back on his dynamic with his mom and seems to almost suppress all the good things he felt for his mom and just remembers the times he felt burdened by her and her emotional needs. i guess part of that transferred to me as well.

any more insights you may have regarding how being similar/opposite to his mom and how that would translate to his perception of me during this mlc time would be appreciated.

thanks again!

what are your 180s? Have you read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books yet?

If not, do so asap...and here are the 37 rules assembled by Sandi for newbies...


FOR WHEN YOU GET "THE BOMB"….

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.



I would add to this another way of saying what you've heard. But the fastest way to kill a relationship is by constantly taking its' temperature. Don't ask "how we're doing NOW??" And Don't highlight your changes.

Two weeks is nothing. At a minimum, give your h a month of real changes in you for each year of your relationship...that's 8 months of consistent change in YOU.

consistent change + sufficient time = change HE can believe in.

If you become the best YOU that you can, then leave the results up to God.

If your h still leaves, you'll survive...and thrive. But for now, do your work on you and take the focus off of him.

hi 25yearsmlc, thanks for offering your insights. you've given me a lot to think about.

i have read michele's divorce remedy a few weeks ago, which is how i managed to stumble onto this site and also when i tried making changes (180's; trying to get detached; etc). since i've been reading through the archives on this site, i've been trying to follow the tips listed above. so for the past 2 weeks, i've almost cold turkey stopped with the relationhip talks, not talking as much in general; restarting old hobbies that have fallen by the wayside; not saying i love you; basically stop pursuing as much as possible. the above tips have been really great because it really breaks down which types of things are considered "pursuing" behavious. unbeknownst to me previously, i'd inadvertantly done almost all the things i'm not supposed to do before i discovered db'ing since i wasn't aware of my pursuing tendencies. i just hope my mistakes in the beginning haven't derailed me from my goals too much.

also, thanks for the reminder that things are still early and i need to be more patient and give things time. patience is definitely not a virtue of mine, but one i hope to develop through this process.

the reason why i had initially thought it might have been important to figure out if what h is going through really is an mlc or not is that i thought it might affect how i respond. i'd been reading other relationship books where they suggest things like showing your spouse more appreciation and affection; not taking your spouse for granted; etc, which are also things i think i need to improve on (since h's love languages are words of affirmation & acts of service). and these things seem to fly a bit in the face of the db rules (detaching; giving lots of space; etc.) and since i've been detaching/giving space for the last 2 weeks with no visible improvement, i wasn't sure if i should keep going or not or trying the other stuff(showing more aprpeciation, etc). from your reply, i think i'll keep trying this for a bit longer (a few more months) and see if there is any progress...

"Could something from 3 years ago trigger MLC now if he has never really processed his feelings about this?"

Again, this is not MLC. It's just unresolved issues. But that's his job to work out, not yours.

"To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what our hot button arguments are aside from having children (which up to a year ago, he had been on board with). His other complaints include that I’m too messy, too clingy, insecure, nag too much, etc. I’ve been making progress in all of these areas, but have not seen an abatement in his anger/resentment, which kind of makes me wonder if his anger/resentment at me is a mask for other issues? "

Make the necessary changes and for the ones that affect him directly, show them to him in small doses. If you seemingly change overnight, he won't believe your changes are real. But if you make them small enough that he doesn't even realize you're changing for the better,the changes will seem much more real.

But regardless of what, if he says alot of things that are hurtful to you, walk away.

you can "applaud loudly for the 1% of positives" he does, and still work on your own issues and


DETACH...

The reason some LBSers focus on the issue of whether it's an MLC--imo-they sometimes think more pursuit is an option is bc/ they are misreading it.

IF and I say IF, someone is in a real MLC, their needs & approach will still be unique.

If they feel you are too critical, it does not matter if they're in MLC or a Walkaway...they think you're too critical,

so it's still Your own behavior you'd work on. Make sense?

When my h and I went to mc's, we saw a total of 4, the first 3 ALL told me various versions of "H is being selfish" "acting like a single man" "not putting his family first"...

while this validated my pain and perception, it did nothing FOR MY M...and h stopped going b/c he said the fact that I'm a L means I can "brainwash the mc's to agree w/"me...

so the content of what they said had no impact on him at all, as far as I could tell. Sure did not change his behavior.

So it made me feel "right, but powerless"....Gee, what am I to DO, if I'm right? Just keep on doing the same thing, right? (Wrong...)

Luckily I found DBing and realized

it's not about being right, it's about being happy.

and eventually I saw a new "Solution based" T who was a bit different (b/c I stressed the importance of the m to me, not at "all costs" but that I was willing to change a lot for it to work)

then

we worked on ME and MY stuff....I had more than I care to admit. Mostly anger at him for the injustice of it all.

(But finally I realized "hey, life is Not fair. Look at Africa..." -for real perspective)

and later on , as in YEARS later

when h finally met my IC, h worked SOME on his stuff (but h and I did not have a conflict as basic as whether to have children)

But A lot of his stuff just had to evolve as he went off on his "mission North" and experienced it for himself...and discovered that for him, living in a desirable place (to him it was desirable-not to me or the kids)

was not worth it if he had to live there without his wife and kids...

THEN and onl THEN did HE make some significant changes to get back into my heart and life.That took work and I wasn't being punitive - I had learned to like my life and didn't want to put more turmoil in the kids' lives or mine, than necessary. Not going to reconcile if it means going back to crazyland where h has one foot out the door all the time...no more eggshells and no more crazy temper (for either).


I had come to believe I truly would be happy, with or without h, and I think that inner feeling radiated outward around him...and I don't think he felt the same. I THINK he felt he was losing more than I was, and I am sure I felt that way.

I also felt sorry for his choices b/c I knew how much they'd cost him as a parent...but that too, is HIS work to do. All I can do is support him in his present efforts...and I do.

So focus on yourself. I'm not exactly in agreement with Bond about the 180s being subtle, but I guess it depends on what they are. I agree that overly dramatic gestures don't ring true b/c they're not authentic changes...they're dramatic gestures...

But If you are too clingy, BACK OFF as much as possible while still being pleasant and upbeat. Like you "get it"--he wants out-- but you're still a content woman. You're busy with other people

(and definitely do activities that involve others--not just knitting or other solo activities. You can have those for your quiet time but you need other people in your life so the need to obsess will decrease, and
you need to get your self esteem back and have some social needs met by others...NOT him...

so be a JOINER of clubs or groups and socialize...what can you join this week?

Focus on being a woman only a fool would leave.

What were you like when he fell in love with you?

and once again, let me ask this--what are you DOING that is new or different vis a vis how you interact with him?

You must not nag...

(btw there's an article in today's Wall St Journal on the "toxicity of nagging in a marriage"....interesting.)

If you make a point or request, let's say, twice, clearly, and he ignores it --ask yourself if it's really truly worth fighting about

or if you just want to get your way or "win"... I've been there, and done that.

Also if you feel compelled to talk and he's a quieter type, get out and exercise or call your peeps.

If you begin to lose sleep or not eat, see your doctor and get meds if you need them. There's no shame in it, believe me.

And if this is a true MLC at this young age, he's a candidate for more of them if he does not resolve ALL his crap soon...

So you risk a lot by staying with him, if having children is a priority for you and you want them raised in a two parent home.

Don't focus on what you fear you are losing so much so, that you forget he has his downsides too...now

Back to YOU & Your work!

((( )))

Hi everyone! just wanted to provide a quick update:
since my last post, i've been reading so many of the old threads here and have basically been trying to learn as much as I can.

Regarding my own sitch though, in early February, h and i sat down and talked and he basically said that he wanted to be alone (i.e. get a D) and that it was the only way he could think of find inner peace. His reasoning is that if I was his soulmate and we were meant to be together, he wouldn’t be feeling this inner turmoil. I would be able to give him peace. He wasn’t really able to elaborate further, but I was wondering if you had any suggestions on things that I can do to help him get his peace?

i admit that i backslid a little at this point and launched into a huge R talk in which I pointed out all the good changes I’ve been making (I’ve been doing my 180’s of just keeping my distance and basically not burdening him with anything (ie. If I have problems at work or have a bad day, I’ll just journal or talk to friends about it). He’s admitted that hes noticed the changes, but is pretty much set in his decision. He wants us to D by the end of April, and seems to be making a lot of moves toward that end.

The upside to all this is that after H got that off his chest, things seem to be getting a lot better between us. As in, H is no longer angry, and we are able to laugh together and do a lot of the things we used to enjoy doing together (have dinner together, watch our fave tv shows, go grocery shopping on weekends, etc). There is still no affection from H though, and H doesn’t seem too receptive when I try to hug him (so I’ve stopped doing that). To an outsider, things would seem almost as though they’ve gone back to normal, but H hasn’t seemed to budge at all in his decision. I know that at some point, if he files for D, I will need to let him go and that I need to detach in the meantime. This has been hard, since I’ve really been enjoying all the positive interactions with H. My BIL got us a copy of Love Dare (both the book & movie), and I’ve been thinking of doing the Love dare exercises since I will have enough days before the D date to do them. If I do this though, would the Love Dare be considered a form of pursuing? How do I do this and also “detach”?
Thanks in advance for your feedback!