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"About the phone thing, don't bring it up again. It will just bring up bad feelings. A friend once told me that if you make a big deal of something, then it will become a big deal."

I have to disagree on this point. The W made a BIG deal about this to begin with with all the calls and texts and accusations. It is a trust issue that really shouldn't be swept under the rug.

If the matter is approached in a careful way without any attempt at score settling then I think it can actually help to strengthen the trust issues they are working to improve.

If Harrier raises the matter and no action is taken to by his W to prove/disprove THEN I would let it drop after that.

Just my perspective of course.

2the point,

You do have a point although your sig line says it .... anything you say will be used against you no matter what. Maybe to close the issue, if I were Harrier I would just print out the statement, then leave it on my W's desk or dresser, but not say anything about it. No discussions, no trust talk, no asking for the "I'm sorry" ....especially if the WAS is still in an indecisive state it may drive them away again, prolong the process.

I've tried many different ways of bringing up things that bug me with my H. As each day passes in our piecing, he gets more stable and able to handle deeper convo in small increments, but early on, he would just ask me not to talk. Its hard for them to admit they are wrong, and attempts from us to prove we are right are perceived as criticism and being unforgiving. Many times my H just asked me for time, for me to take it slowly, one step at a tme, as he still felt that his sanity would slip away if I piled the whole thing on him at once. Slowly, he is starting to admit his wrongs, and I am confident that the day will come that we can be fully open and trusting once again.

Harrier,

I wish there was a better way to track people b/c it's 2's tracking me down that got me back here...anyhow...I think that' another reason I'll go and start a new thread of my own.

Okay first, I think that your w DID make a big deal about the phone calls and maybe OM is wigging out somewhere and lying...but I'd remind your w ONCE that you hope she'll be sure to follow up so you can move forward with trust.

No score keeping and Angel the reason I think Harrier ought to bring this up is b/c it's recent and of HER making...

as for the moving back in...ouch I am of mixed feelings. Money DOES matter so let's give that a point.

But I sure wish there were other reasons SHE alluded to but you let slide. Why not ask "like what other reasons?"

Finally, is there any way you can use this move and your reluctance to move back (which I suggest you DO SHOW her...don't look so eager, please....trust me on this)

to get her to Retrovaille?

you are not exactly in piecing but it's like you both want to be or at least you both want to see what you might rebuild

yet without her saying "yes let's put the foundation down"...and "then rebuild"

if you go to Retrovaille she does NOT have to commit to the m before going...she just needs to commit to going

and THEN discover what you are willing to commit to.

Let's say it turns out she wants OUT...then find out sooner rather than later.

But Harrier, Retrovaille will NOT make her want out...it will either save your marriage or prolong it.

((( )))

Ahhhhh. the little spitfire returns. Thanks for taking the time to hunt me down.



I agree and will probably find a way to bring it up under that context. I don't necessarily agree with Angel about leaving the print out of the phone records.I'm sure my W would see that as passive aggressive.

I want to clarify the alleged phone call was NOT to the OM but his friend (her other mentor) . My W had a couple of text conversations as well as a couple of phone calls to this other guy that were work related as something came up over the trip.

While I can't be 100% sure, I doubt this other guy would play games or tell my W that for the OM. He is a good guy, very by the rules and has high integrity.

My contacts with the OM - one phone call dialed and the office thing was last year about this time. Only recently did the OM tell my W's mentor about it.


Perhaps I wasn't clear. She told me the other reasons. She thought the separation did it's job of relieving a lot of the pressure between us. She said she felt more comfortable around me. She sees it as a sign of progress that she can live around me.
But you are right, I didn't ask her directly.



Well I am reluctant on the move. I've been doing a lot of thinking and really can't imagine just keeping the status quo, but in the same house instead of 2. in fact, I haven't even talked to my landlord yet or given him the notice. I feel like I need a commitment from my W before I give notice.

Retrovaille is something I would like to bring up...but the rub is that the next one in my area is almost too soon. Jan 22-24 (I think) After that, the next one is in April.


I agree about piecing. I just feel most comfortable posting here. Mainly because of what you said about her not saying she wants to put the foundation down and rebuild.
I don't know where she is. i know where I am and I am acting in a manner that reflects my desire for a new marriage.

We do have an MC session on Jan. 4.

She has been talking a lot about our future i.e moving back to our hometown, where we would live, taking a family vacation in May.

Honestly, in my heart of hearts, I don't think she wants out. I mean during our trip home It felt like old times a lot. I made her laugh more than I've done recently and she was more attentive than she has been in a while. I just don't get that feeling (I know not to mind read)

But I don't know if she wants in, either. It's like there is a block to that and I don't know what that is.

your last 2 lines say it all

you think she may want in, but there seems to be a block but you don't know what it is.

I bet She doesn't know either. Maybe it's the unknown of how to rebuild a marriage. Most people in our world DO NOT rebuilt their m's, they end them and get new fresh ones...

I definitely think you need to make sure she's not feeling weird at work for things you did NOT do...

(if she has the paper work to show you didn't call her mentor, it'll also help HER at work, won't it?)

And I don't think Retrovaille is too soon. For one thing, the follow up program, which I HIGHLY recommend b/c one weekend won't fix all your stuff or last -

but the follow up DOES keep it going and it lasts for months...

seems to me that you'll get some tools for your marriage which you presently lack

and your mc is not providing you yet. It's hard to make a lot of progress with weekly meetings anyhow, b/c when I'd make a break through in therapy

I'd have to go home to the babies or back to work and I'd forget half of how I got to the breakthrough or the inisght. The next week I'd have to start all over.

My point is that even the best of mc's cannot compete with a full weekend of focussed work.

Good luck!

\

I guess I mean too soon from a logistics point of view. I don't know the set up, but it would require childcare for 2 days on the weekend. We both live 2000 miles from our families so it would mean a babysitter or something else.

Ideally, I'd like to get a grandparent to come in for the weekend to visit and take care of the kids and Jan. 22 is probably too soon to get something set up.

=======
I've been doing A LOT of thinking about what has been said here. A lot. I don't feel I can move back into a situation that is the status quo. I've spent the last 3 nights at the house and each time my W goes to bed by herself and says "see you tomorrow" instead of "see you upstairs" it really drags on my emotions. I'm usually able to recover quickly.

I don't want bread crumbs, I don't want a roommate situation. I dont' expect us to instantly jump back into anything either. I'm realistic about the progress, but these last few weeks have been the most fun in a long time. I think I have made significant progress and the W has commented on it.

But I see little progress on her end. that's not to say it doesn't exist. The celibate lifestyle is not fun.

the thing that really is hard is that we get along GREAT now. I mean great. The Xmas vacation was totally awesome. We have good communication about things other than the R, we acknowledge little things we do for each other. I make her laugh again and she appears to be more comfortable around me. Perhaps she's afraid to upset that balance. Who knows?

But something has to be done. I don't want to be a WAS.

"But I see little progress on her end. that's not to say it doesn't exist. The celibate lifestyle is not fun.

The thing that really is hard is that we get along GREAT now. I mean great. The Xmas vacation was totally awesome. We have good communication about things other than the R, we acknowledge little things we do for each other. I make her laugh again and she appears to be more comfortable around me. Perhaps she's afraid to upset that balance. Who knows?

But something has to be done. I don't want to be a WAS."

If I may be so bold Harrier, go back and re-read your post from 12/19. There you laid down some well thought out goals. One of which was to move back in the house. Now with that accomplished just a few days ago, you seem to be getting a little too anxious to move things along.

Recall also that one of your stated goals from the 19th was to not share the bed right away. I think that is a good goal. But, here you are lamenting the fact that all you are getting are bread crumbs. I would say that simply moving back in is a HUGE loaf of bread. So savor it, butter it up, put a little cinnamon on it if you like, but don’t eat it all in one sitting. Do you know what I am saying?

Look, I think your W is taking things one step at a time and so should you. Maybe it is time to reevaluate and establish a new set of goals.

Here’s an idea/goal. How about setting something up with your W where you both agree to spend a minimum of 30 minutes once a week to talk about your R. You get 15 minutes and she gets 15 minutes or structure it anyway you like. Talk about whatever you want but it has to be related to the R. Put it on the calendar so you don’t forget and you’ll both have something to prepare for and look forward to.

Perhaps you’ll find that it helps you to feel like things are progressing or evolving or whatever. Then what you both will be doing is laying the foundation for the real work ahead when you get to Retrovaille.

Just remember to have no expectation of things moving along any faster than they are. Don’t try to goose it along without your W in full agreement. Don’t move too fast or you run the risk of scaring your W and then you’ll be back to square one.

I hope this is helpful for you.

I'm outta here. My last few hours of 2011 were talking about the logistics of a divorce. She hates to see me twisting in the wind; doesn't have those feelings; doesn't know if they will come back. Doesn't want me to wait.

BS or not, that's my life.

Man, really sorry to hear this! So what triggered the D discussion? Did it have anything to do with you feeling like things are in limbo, only getting breadcrumbs, etc.?

"She hates to see me twisting in the wind; doesn't have those feelings; doesn't know if they will come back. Doesn't want me to wait."

Harrier, I'm not at the piecing stage yet, (hope to be but not there yet) but it seems to me that piecing is a very long and laborious process. Extreme patience and care would seem to be a key attribute in this phase of the R process.

You both had a fantastic Christmas holiday so it would appear that there is something to build upon. Doesn't your W see that? Do you?

Don't you have a MC session coming up in a few days? What do you hope to accomplish?

I know you have concerns regarding logistics for childcare if you were to go to Retrovaille sooner rather than later. Have you considered making the sacrifice of flying in support so you can get in the program? Are there other alternatives? I mean, time seems to be of the essence in your sitch, so maybe it would be worth it to see if you could make it work.

I don't know what all is going on in the dynamic between you and your W but I think that DB principles still apply, even during piecing. So, if you are feeling the need to pursue or pressure, even if it is subtle, it is probably best to stop.

It sounds as if your W may be reacting to some perceived pressure she is sensing and if that is the case, you may actually be sabotaging your own efforts in ways you don't even realize.

My best advice is to try to SLOW IT WAY DOWN. Manage things as if you are still living away from home. How would you be acting around your W? What type of GAL activities would you be involved in? Did you stop? What about your 180's? Any slippage there? Are there any new 180's that might be worthwhile implementing?

I wish you well and hope you are able to continue to work at this, as difficult as it obviously is.

Hi Harrier! Just checking in to see how you are doing. Hope all is well!