Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers WHG: Down the rabbit hole I guess

Just sitting here writing out answers to questions SS and SD may have when we tell them next Sunday. Do you know how much it suxx to have to put down "There will be other times that I will ask mom if you guys can spend some time with me and we'll do stuff all four us, but that's only if you want to. You won't ever be forced to come spend time with me if you don't want to."

Breaks my damn heart... . This hurts so much.

"The other really hard moment was when S started to ask questions about family relations. Then about W's XH and SS and SD. We talked about it... about why mom and XH stopped being married. About how it happens some times and it doesn't mean mom or dad are bad and it's certainly not the kids' fault. After talking for a few minutes my S puts his head down on my chest, gives me a huge hug, and says "I hope that never happens to you and mommy, daddy."

Isn't it something; children are much more perceptive than we often give them credit for. They know something is up even if they aren't sure exactly what "up" is.

WHG, having already been down this particular road I can totally sympathize with how you are feeling. And it is probably THE MOST difficult thing you will ever have to do.

In my sitch, you might recall I was the one who told the kids that we were splitting up. (I did not say anything about divorce. I didn't want things to appear so final for the kids AND I wanted to leave a door open for my W if she were to change her mind). Although I really wanted my W to have to shoulder that burden since she was the one who wanted out of the M, in the end I felt that as the man of the house, I should be the one to break the news. Besides my W was an emotional wreck at the time and was in no condition to be facilitating this type of discussion.

My best advice is that once you have settled on what you want to say, share it with your W so she is clear on what the message is. Then take a moment to collect yourself before you meet with the kids. You may even want to check one last time with your W to see if she really wants to move forward with this.

I think the important thing is to appear as strong and compassionate as possible for the kids. There will be plenty of time to grieve privately, so try your best to keep it together for the kids sake. Of course you can't control what your W will do, so be prepared for anything. But, in all likelihood, she will probably be very sad and emotional.

My heart really goes out to you. Try to hang in there!

Thanks 2TP... This is the thing I am most scared to death of in a very long time in my life. I had to deliver the eulogy at my dad's funeral when I was 19 and then bury him. That was the hardest thing I've ever done. I am guessing this will be either 1 or 1a to that.

We have agreed that we are doing this jointly. Thankfully W and I are getting along. The reason for writing out the questions is so that we can both be on the same page and agree on the messages. Also so I can have my IC look at them tomorrow at my appointment.


This is the part I know I have to do but have no idea how I will do it. Just in the theoretical talk yesterday with my S I started to lose it... and he wasn't in pain yet. Once it hits him... well, I don't know how I'm going to keep it together.

My other great fear is what this is going to do about how I feel towards my W. I keep working hard to have compassion for her. When I get angry or frustrated, I try to think what it must be like for her. What the past few years have been like for her. While I don't believe, in an objective sense, they've been all that bad; I do get that from her perspective they've been torturous. That she's been alone, scared, sad, and "empty". Some of that is me and how I failed to keep connecting with her. Some of that is her, her depression, and her own issues.

But I'm very protective of my family. If the kids end up hurting the way I think they will... I don't know how I'm not going to hate my W. How I will be able to forgive her for going this next step. I know I played a role, but in the end I'm not the one doing this. I think I might feel different if we had taken steps, even perfunctory ones, to fix this. Had we seen a MC, had she seen an IC (more than once), etc...

So I am scared of that too... that after seeing the aftermath of this I won't be able to get back to a place in my heart where I can find compassion and forgiveness. I don't want to be XH who hates his XW... but how can a mother rationalize this? I just don't get it.

WHG I finally told my D this past weekend in front of W. She had already told her over the summer. I don't know why I waited not sure if it was the right thing to do. But was is the right thing to do in this sitch? W was a bit pissed as to how I presented it. W usually minimizes things or sanitizes them. Hang in there

Ok... so I tossing this up here whilst the convo is fresh in my mind. I haven't had much time to process it, but it was interesting.

W worked from midnight last night to noon today so she just got home. She had texted me earlier and asked what I was doing for lunch. I actually had no clue as I'd spent the morning taking down the tree and putting away holiday stuff. Pretty emotional morning as I was splitting ornaments into a "hers" and "his" boxes. She said not to worry she'd figure something out. I replied that if I went somewhere I'd let her know first and she could decide if she wanted something or not. So I ended up getting something and she asked me to get her something as well.

I get home and she's already home. We sit down and have lunch together. She starts talking about her night at work and a crazy patient she had. Then somehow we end up in R land. She tells me about this self-help book she is reading; which is the same book I'm reading (or will be once the library lets me know it's in). She tells me things she's learned about herself. Her need to be loved and secure. How her abandonment and abuse as a child effects her today. It was a very open and emotional conversation. How she hates what she is doing to the kids. How she is scared to death of telling them. I just listen and validate. At times I share little insights I've learned, particularly how they inter-relate with her... such as I'm a fixer who found someone in her who needed security and help.

She goes on to say she's sorry for all of this. That while some of this is me and my habits, that it's mainly her and her issues that have caused this. That overall I'm really a pretty good guy and a good husband. She just can't be with anyone right now; that she's never been alone; that she doesn't even know who she is. She thanks me for giving her all this space these past few months. For letting her go over to her new BFF's house frequently because it has helped her process and clear her head. I listen. I toss in that I want her to be happy and I can see she needs space so she can have all the space she wants. She apologizes for not being around for the kids enough. She thanks me for filling in.. both with S and with SS and SD. That she's lucky to have had me through this.

The last part she talks about her fears. Fears about her health post move-out. About how she fears she won't do enough self-care and will fall apart. Fears about money and affording everything. Fears about finding a house that is affordable and meets her needs. Again I listen. I agree it will be tough. I don't offer to give her more money, to find solutions, or anything. I just listen. This is a big 180 for me... to not fix, not strategize, not repair.

We end with some convo about the kids. I share my own fears about telling them, about what will happen. We share things we've written up on how to break the news to them. I tell her, finally, about S wanting to join my volunteer group. She agrees that if he still wants to post-break up news that she would be all for it, and that he's already brought it up to her himself. We agree to put that into the break-the-news script.

So weird stuff huh? Not what I expected from today... have to think on it more. But now I have to go brave the cold winds to take out Santa.. I mean take down Santa

Ah, I see W's guilt is rearing its head! My W did the same thing only it was after we told the kids. "I've hurt your terribly and I hate myself for doing that to you." Of course she had a chance to put on the breaks but chose not to.

The emotional toll this crap takes on everyone in this sitch is just dreadful! What the heck did people do in the old days? Oh that's right, by the time they got to the point of resentment and wanting out of their marriages, they were already dead!

I guess that is yet another downfall of living longer.

I was going to say the same thing, 2thepoint, that it sounded like some guilt and huge money worries weighing on her. As I was reading this, it almost seemed like your w is waiting for you to come up with solutions for her, to help her find ways to make this affordable for her.

Yeah... I recognized the guilt too... And while it is guilt, I'm glad to at least see it. She's been so disassociated and unconcerned with the kids' emotions I've wondered who she is.

I'm not sure if she was looking for solutions or not, but if she was they weren't going to come from me. After she went to bed I found myself crafting more options for her but made myself stop. Her mantra is that she's never been alone... Well, this is part of being alone.

The part I took some heart in is that she is at least reading some self-help books, and she appears to be connecting her current situation with her behaviors. And that if she is to be believed, she's accepting more of the onus of our M falling apart. And this isn't the first time she's said that, so I believe that she may believe it more now. I also think her willingness to work with me and keep our family as "together" as we can be in separate houses reflect her thinking.

If I am honest with myself, there are truisms in things she has said. She never has been alone, never had to be grown up by herself. She lived with a roommate for three months after high school befor she moved in with her first husband. She left her first husband and moved in with her dad. Three months after she left her first H, even before her divorce was final, we met while she was living with her dad. She then move from her dad's into a rental with me. Then we bought a house. Now we are here.

This doesn't mean I don't believe we shouldn't be together. But it does mean that I think she has some validity. I don't know that the solution of divorce is the right answer. I like to think that there are ways we could meet her psychological needs without blowing up our family.

WHG,

Feel free to skip this post, it won't really be different than other posts I've made to you. So, you know what to expect.

(1) Give W more space than she wants. You still aren't doing this. All this pushing from W is about her getting more space and pushing you away. If you would move away on your own, she wouldn't have to push. Get your finances separate NOW. It was NOT OK that you and W had to discuss her vacation budget. That should be NUNYA. Close all joint credit cards. Each of you contributes X money to agreed upon joint expenses. Each of you does WHATEVER he or she wants with other money. QUIT being in her business because of childcare. Put childcare on a fixed schedule. She will have to make that schedule work for her.

(2) MAN UP. It is NOT OK to tell your kids on 1/8 when she isn't moving out until April. This is NOT what was recommended. Tell W that you are NOT OK with it. IT WILL NEEDLESSLY HARM THE KIDS. Insist on talking about options with a C. Quit your eggshell walking. "W, if you need more space, fine, but not at the expense of the kids welfare. It is selfish of you to push to tell the kids about our separating when you have not yet gotten yourself into a position to move out. WHEN you have a signed lease, then we can tell them two weeks prior to your move out date. There is NO REASON to put them through the strain of living in the house under the looming separation for months. It is flat out WRONG. The kids deserve better. You already know that."

(3) Respect your W. ALL WASs and ALL LBSs I have EVER seen eventually go through a period of re-adolescence. It is perfectly normal. Your W is in great pain and is doing the best she can. ACCEPT her regret and concern at face value. Quit trying to cheapen it. She probably is trying to do the best thing for her kids which is to be a happy healthy adult in the only way she knows how to right now. It is where she is. Respect the strength it takes for her to do what she is doing. If she were somewhere else in her life, she could perhaps work on herself while doing it in a healthier way, but she isn't there now, and NOW is what matters in terms of what anyone can do in the present.

(4) Take initiative. Move into a different room in the house or suggest a way for her to have her own sleeping space in the house in a different room. You are sharing a bed with a woman who does not want to be in your bed. You don't understand this? Really? She is involved with other men. It probably makes her feel dirty being in bed with you for many reasons. She wants SPACE from you. She doesn't want to have to pretend to be comfortable being intimate with you. She doesn't want you to know when she is in bed and when she isn't. She doesn't want to see your morning erection. She doesn't want your breath on her. She wants SPACE. WHY would you want to share a bed with someone who doesn't want to share a bed with you?

(5) Take care of yourself. It is inappropriate for you to be her shoulder to cry on.

(6) The letter you wrote for the teachers is way over the top. And you aren't fooling anyone -- you mean it as a message to W to make her "wake up." Just stop trying to make her wake up and see the light. It does NOT help. It is pure pursuit which will get you only more pushing away.

LET GO. DROP THE ROPE. ACCEPT that she is doing the best thing for herself AND her kids by trying to become healthy.

IF you can do this quickly, clearly, firmly, then I think you STILL have a chance of avoiding a physical separation, but the chances are getting smaller and smaller. W will NEVER have a chance to miss you unless you quit being there. W will NEVER have a chance to see what she wants until you QUIT wanting what she doesn't want because she won't be able to tell whether her own questions about her choices are stemming from guilt or sincere desires.

Ask for an in-house separation. Sleep in different rooms. Make it officially OK to see other people but NOT in a way that exposes any of the kids to that fact. Do not seek sex or comfort from her. She is not your romantic partner right now, she is not even your friend. Let her go. And quit being around to get her lunch.

Let me add some commentary Oldtimer because it's impossible to include everything in every post. Thanks for commenting though...


We have. The vacation thing was almost a month ago. Since then she has her own checking account and I have mine. We put X dollars in the joint account each week to pay for the expenses as agreed upon in the budget. We have closed all joint cards. As far as childcare... we sit down each week and decide who is doing what for care. It's not perfect... things change and lately her work has changed her schedule on short notice.

I have told her this. I told her when she first said it and I told her yesterday. She still intends to do it on 1/8 with or without me present. So then what? Dare her to do it? Not be there when she does it? I can't control her actions, I can only control mine. So my choice then is to be there or not be there. I want to be there. If there is another option I am desperately looking for it.

This board is where I come to vent. I do believe she is doing the best she can. I can see it in and from her. It is what it is. But that doesn't mean it doesn't make me angry from time to time. I come here to get that anger out rather than directing it at her. So if I'm cheapening it on here it's because I need somewhere to direct that. But I don't believe I'm directing it at her.

I have given her two options for moving to another room. She could move to the basement or the back bedroom. I have offered that we can delay some debt payoff to purchase her a new bed for either of those spaces (the basement is finished). She has not chosen to take either option. She doesn't want to take the option until we tell the kids. But even when I said, ok, then I'm assuming you'll need a bed solution come Monday she said "no, I'm not sure what I want to do yet". Where does one go with that? I suppose I could up and move, and maybe I'm just being petulant but I really don't want to leave my bed. Over this past long weekend, while SS and SD were at their dad's house, W slept in SD's bed. I made no comment and no recognition of it... because I didn't really care. She can sleep wherever she wants to sleep. Up to this point she remains in our bed because she is choosing to... lord knows I'm not forcing her to... how the hell would I do that anyway? chain her up? She has options but hasn't taken them.

As far as the teacher letter... I did not intend as a message to my W. I sincerely didn't. As I re-read I can see where parts of it are, but that was not it's intent. It was meant to tell the teachers what is happening and to try and quell the rumor mill in our little town.

I haven't sought sex or comfort from her in... well, a pretty long time. Not since that moment over a month ago.

I do accept that she believes she is doing the best thing for herself and the kids. I do not have to agree that it is, but I do accept it. Again, this is the place I vent about my disagreement with her worldview. But I do believe she is confused, in pain, and trying to figure out how to make it better. That she thinks if she can make it better for her it will be better for the kids. Of course that's not true, but I haven't challenged her view because there's no point. What matters is how she views her world, not how I view it.

What I haven't done is propose the formal "in-house separation" idea. We haven't gone that route because the kids haven't been told and it's sort of hard to explain why mom and dad are sleeping in separate rooms unless you tell them something. I can propose it. I think it has a 2% chance of being accepted. She wants to start packing next week as she has a week of vacation. It's a little hard to hide things like boxes full of stuff. But hope springs eternal.

There is this strong, single woman mantra working inside her right now. She can't connect with that reality while with me. Whether "in-house separated" or not... the fact remains that she is still reliant on me in some fashion. I don't see a way that will change.