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This is a great discussion and IS you are making leaps forward!



I, too, had no concept of what boundaries meant. I was in everybody else's business "fixing" things for them and had no idea that I could say no. This is still difficult for me and I often ask my T "What do normal people do in this situation?"

I took a Boundaries class and I think I have 3-4 books on boundaries. One of the most interesting things I've read is that healthy people don't need a lot of boundaries because they have a few that they keep and that takes care of things.

I also go to Codependent's Anonymous and Al Anon Adult Child meetings. I have found these to be incredibly helpful.


Love this reference!

I think you're doing great, IS!

((((IS))))

"Oh Val ---I understand but HOW to get to where I KNOW I'm worthy???? That is my journey, and I'm desperately trying to dig deep enough to get there."

IS give me 5 examples that say you are NOT worthy? Please write them here, I will love to read them. Think hard about them.

IS-

Your self-realizations and goal setting are inspiring to me! I'm so impressed by the work you have been doing for yourself

I too had a household where boundaries were a little fuzzy. I was an only child and both parents were beyond smart so it was ok to get into a heated argument/discussion when facts and figures were being used... but as soon as an emotion was brought up... "I think we need to take a break and come back when we can talk rationally" So I was taught to never express emotions to them, but I had to learn to deal/process them on my own. I've only recently learned how this upbringing was damaging my M because I never let my H feel that it was ok to talk about emotions- I always tried to distract or brush under the rug.

Continue to leap, jump and fly forward!! You've made some great progress and I think the future looks good for you!!

Stunned,
Well said my friend!!

hello IS,
Glad to see you made it through the holidays. One down, one more to go. When do you start up again at school? Do you find having time off and having unstructured days is beneficial or detrimental for you?

I personally find having unstructured days to be harder for me. It becomes more difficult to schedule things to keep myself busy. At least when I am working the day goes faster and my mind is occupied.

I always enjoy your posts, keep hanging in there, you are doing great in a very difficult sitch!!

IS

well, what a week!

Okay first, I read Mullins v Picklesimer, which is a Kentucky case. Is that the case you wanted me to read? It's not in your state nor is it in the same federal circuit so it's NOT controlling law.

But IF the case is cited as relevant (b/c maybe the Penn court says there's insufficient case law in their state and therefore they cite Mullins...or if you somehow get the court there to use Mullins)

then it certainly helps you! The facts are very similar and the appellate courts' reasoning in overturning parts of the trial court's decision, help you too.

Especially in that case since the legal mother was also the bio mom and yet had to share custody with the other "parental figure" in the child's life and how the court viewed what being a "parent" means now. Very helpful to you. The fact scenario is similar, with some roles reversed but those are also more helpful to you...so yeah, If the case gets applied, you will be helped.

as you may know, It's a matter of whether the PA courts have their own caselaw/decisions that make the Mullins case irrelevant, OR not.

If they use the Mullins case (and I assume there's a reason you think it might be??)

then you're in a good position vis a vis S4.

The other thing I wanted to mention was about church...hard to discuss here...
but I know why you felt alienated and how estranged you feel from Church...

I just went to my first PFLAG meeting b/c my elder d asked me to. Long story... She came out sort of, to me about a year ago and then a few months ago made it clear that she's bisexual. Met her special friend and was very surprised. Guess I assumed a Gwyneth Paltrow type, not who I met...

At first I felt (due to what SHE had said over the years) that it was related to her r with my h, plus she was sexually assaulted by a man a few months before...but I also accept that it does not matter WHY she is OR if it's a phase or temporary-all will be revealed in time...

it's real to her now, and maybe it IS how it is. Today is all we have and can know.

Mary, Val, I thought I was more enlightened. Although I have many gay friends, it was not the same when your older d, the "ballerina" one you feel SO close to, tells you this. SO now I'm working on going from denial of it, went through "tolerating" it to acceptance (mostly there). Eventually I hope to be embracing of it.

I mention all this b/c I had some religious faith issues to resolve.

I don't want my d to feel rejected by me OR any church. I cannot control churches...or others for that matter. I can only try to protect and reassure.

I had no idea how much she had felt torn by this struggle of hers,

and my MAIN focus is making sure she knows that I love her no matter what.

I'm embarrassed that I was embarrassed. I worried about what family members AND church members would say. (I'm NOT proud of that.)

So at PFLAG I got a lot of resources and even found a "Catholic & Gay" support group. (THAT has to be new! But it helped me.)

It's helped me feel more comfortable with the questions I anticipate from the bible quoters in my circles, and perhaps more importantly

I feel God's love for my child is at least as strong as mine is, so I know she's in the hands of a loving God.

If I can find the support I needed as a parent and heard more loving acceptance than I had known was there, you can too.

So I hope IS, that you will go back to a church and feel welcome.

But Know where to look.

And Good luck my friend,

((( )))

Great post 25!!

Sorry for the hijack but Harrier was asking the other day for 25's input on his thread. If you have a moment to take a look his thread is located "HERE".

Thanks and good luck IS!!

IS sorry to hijack your thread I just wanted to respond to 25.

Mary, Val, I thought I was more enlightened. Although I have many gay friends, it was not the same when your older d, the "ballerina" one you feel SO close to, tells you this. SO now I'm working on going from denial of it, went through "tolerating" it to acceptance (mostly there). Eventually I hope to be embracing of it.

25 first of all I would just like to commend you for being willing to put in the work that it takes to go from denial to embracing your D's choices. That's a perfect example of unconditional love. Secondly, I know that for myself it took me a long time to process through the realization that I was gay and even longer to accept myself. For that reason I do not expect other people i.e. family/friends to process the fact that I am gay quickly. I completely realize that in some cases it is just as much of a process for them as it was for me.

Your daughter is very lucky to have a Mom that is willing to take a second look at some of her views and put her daughters happiness in front of her own.

Take Care!

thanks Sunshine, I appreciate it and so does my d. (Sorry for the temporary hijack IS)

Our son25, has been very close to her for years, and has known a lot longer. So she's had someone in her corner but still, he told me of her internal shame that she felt for a long time. It breaks my heart.

While I "mourn" the loss of the dreams/vision I had of her future, I am hoping to replace it with a more generic "find a soul mate" hope for her and leave it at that.

My h is struggling with it and I know for a fact he feels remorseful. I hope that his remorse for being absent at such a crucial time in her life, won't convert into resentment (a Russian author wrote "when men feel guilt, they attack" and it rang true for me then) or useless guilt, but something more constructive. But alas, as we all know, WE cannot control another person, just us.

Sunshine, I wish I knew more gay couples who were happy together forever...of course we can all say that about straight couples too, I know.
But I Do know some straight married couples who have been together for decades and seem happy still. I don't know any gays who have been m for more than 15 years and those are rare.

You think So it's harder for gay couples to stay together (less familial/societal support??) To me, I fear it's another downside to being gay for my d, on top of dealing with the bias she'll face in other areas. Not that I can do anything about that, but you take my point.

We live in Southern California, & she's an artist, so she's not aware of how it can be elsewhere. But I am.

I've heard plenty of things that she would never hear in her circle & might crush her. I am not around a lot of condemning evangelicals but

I heard the mother of a gay girl say "She's an abomination" about her own d, & I wanted to slap her. (Oh yes we did have a chat!)

My d is such an optimist and an open souled person, I dread the day she tells me "someone said x to me"....

So, how has Your family supported you in this crisis?

IS, same for you. Other than your brother's recent involvement, (for which I was glad) Do you feel you've gotten much support?

And the estrangements you had with them, does Any of that seem to belong to you?

remember your w said you were "too in your head" and it bugged her that you didn't get along with her mom, or were you just too busy= distant??

I know you agreed with SOME of her feedback way back when...

you said you could have made more effort with your mil. Why do you think you didn't before? And do you feel that you could have made more efforts in other family r's like your own?

Was it you being socially inactive and perhaps a tad lazy (or selfish?)

OR
is there so much history it's too much to go into?

I'm asking b/c I want to know if you made your w your whole world socially,

b/c IF SO, that's a lot for HER to be responsible for...it's wearing. And

You did say you let her make all the social efforts...what's that about?

more importantly, what are you doing about it?

ONE upside to a crisis is how some r's in your life become clearer to you and you will know that SOME friends/family members are only there for the good times - (so call them to party when you get a promotion!)

but some are there for you in those long dark nights of the soul.

They're blessings.

IS, you asked about feeling worthy of love. Implicit in that is whether you are worthy or deserving of happiness. And even when you know it in your head, that's not the same as..."knowing" it & feeling it through and through...

You have so much in you -"locked" behind a door that all you need is the key to unlock it. It's there!

Your answers and the "click" that a key will provide are so close, and you are so ripe for growth and leaps forward.

We know you are a person of depth and when you let your guard down to embrace that, it won't frighten, it'll free your soul to open again and yes to TRUST

b/c you will never ever be in such a vulnerable place again

NOT b/c you won't trust...no...

b/c you will know your inner worth, that you deserve happiness, you will FEEL it, and KNOW IT,

and this knowledge of that worth so fully felt by you-- WILL MAKE YOU A HAPPIER WOMAN for good, with or without another person.


You'll find that it's okay to risk your heart when you know you still have some left inside of you that will be taking care of YOU...

it is not something you divide up but multiply, just as if you had a 2nd or 3rd child. You don't divide your love, you multiply it.

When you learn to love yourself fully, truly, then the "risk" of giving your heart won't be high

b/c you'll retain enough love for yourself- BUT without holding back from them

So get yourself to Philadelphia for that workshop, and get the key to unlock your heart...

IS

I saw this post and wanted to pass it on to you. It's not all applicable but most of it is and obviously

change the OM to "OW", and "SS" to "S4" ( where I missed them) and go from there...it's golden!

2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.

3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and S, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.

4. Do not talk about OW. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OW. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OW.

5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way WAY more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate. (Validate does not mean "agree". It means you understood. )

6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do thing
to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.

7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.

8. Lovingly detach - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me.

BUT, I love my W without conditions... so I accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.

9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and S. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.

10. Be the better woman. I am better than the OW... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.


11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. When my W left, she was DONE. DBing has allowed me to get her to a point of confusion on that initial decision. This has, and continues to be, a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better woman.

12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.

13. Time is still my friend. Even though I have been knocked down the mountain a lot, my W is still closer to reconciling than I ever thought that she would be back in October or November. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.

14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time.

And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for a few months. She needs to see more of it.

BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, or to S. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long, [and that of course as a parent I will be in our son's life as such.]