this is for Rick and not necessarily others...sorry for the hijack but I'll get to your question in a bit
Originally Posted By: Rick1963
Hi keep going so sorry you are dealing with this also. I'm going to my 1st court date next Wednesday. I was told to let my W go and let her have what she wants. To let her go through with it ( even tho I pushed her to do it after I had an outburst).
if you are referrring to your DB coach's words, that's a very rough translation Rick. And it's inaccurate.
You were told, IF I recall correctly--and I may not--to stop arguing for the marriage and to stop TALKING about making it work and instead to DEMONSTRATE the changes in you.
I am NOT convinced you have done much demonstrating.
Small steps, perhaps yes, but they were inconsistent and you were disappointed when you did not get immediate results b/c you attached expectations to Each small step. Every 180 had a hope directly linked
and when that hope was not fully realized right away, you despaired.
And this despairing you do, this "woe is me" depressive routine and seeing the glass as half empty,
MUST CHANGE FROM WITHIN YOU...it's NOT healthy and it's not productive...AND you must know by now Rick, it's also a big turn off.
People cannot be around downers all the time b/c they suck out the light in the room -they bring in their darkness...no more of that Rick! You have your faith, and that gift comforts us when we let it in...so let it in Rick.
I feel for you. But you must suck it up and get a grip, and if need be, "fake it 'til you make it." It works! NO, not totally and NO not immediately. But in time it helps a lot. so did your w see real changes in you, over time, that convinces her they're real AND permanent? We know she didn't, so does that mean DBing did not work? NO it means you did not DB long enough or strongly enough. So does that mean you stop it?
No, b/c that's like saying should you stop working out and eating right b/c you didn't win the Mr Universe contest? Of course not. Do what is good for you and in time, those good things spill over to ther areas of your life. They have to.
I agree with you that YES you did push her to divorce b/c you repeatedly said during heated moments of anger, more than once,
to "go ahead and leave me!" which to me would sound like you'd rather lose the marriage and wife/daughter than change yourself....
so over time that is the message you sent out. And B/C of that, you had a lot to overcome of old messages from the "old Rick"...and it took awhile for you to begin discovering DBing and to try it, so
NOW, how long have you been making consistent changes?
We cannot change the past but we CAN GO, "FROM THIS DAY FORWARD"....Just like what's in our marriage vows.
We haven't even discussed the court date. I act as if nothing is going on. Not sure if is the right thing to do or not. what does that mean? Are you doing 180s? Or acting like you always have acted?
I already asked my W to reconsider when I was served so she knows where I stand. Rick---Does that "already asked my w to reconsider".....strike you as a convincing, passion filled risk taking position of yours?
Did you feel you really went out on a limb saying that? Really? hmm
"W, please reconsider".....if my h said that to me IF/when I filed for divorce, I might've shaken my head at how he "still doesn't get it"...b/c what I would NEED from him at that point would be, at a minimum
some serioue eye contact, a feeling that he was truly sorry for the ways he hurt me (not begging me or being a doormat, but honest regret) AND
that he was truly trying to reach me at a deep soul level...and I'd want him to tell me AND SHOW ME exactly how our marriage would be better and different at HIS end and that he'd be patient b/c he'd know I'd need time to believe in all these promises.. so he'd need to show me that he'd have no expecations of me for a long time-b/c
TIME + consistent changes = change I'd believe in...
Just my opinion.
I think you should prepare yourself for either outcome. If he files you will have no control and can't stop it. My advice is to listen to what he says about it and validate. we are told to let them do all of the leg work. I can't tell you what to do regarding the C or separation. Hang in there
sorry for the hijack
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
This is going to take every ounce of self control you can muster.
1)Sit down and let him talk about what he wants. Validate unless it becomes downright abusive.
2)Calmly tell him this is not what you want but you also won't stand in his way and try to muck up the process. Neither of you has the funds to do that, right? agree with the first 2 options...you already know the "If I had it to do over again, I'd do a LOT of things differently" response...and for total revisions you say "Wow I don't recall it that way BUT I'm sorry if you were hurt"--both validate and neither escalates and both reveal change in YOU...
being calm NEVER hurts in these situations and given his version of you, which he'll hope to find evidence of to fuel his decision and stop him from 2nd guessing....
however-if he goes on too long about how bad it was and the m HAS to end, you can say, firmly but gently, "H, I hear what you are saying. As you know, I have a lot of regrets and changes to make. But please believe me when I say that I know people can and do change in life. Certainly YOU have...and so have I. I'm sure we'll both be better partners for our next r's as you are already discovering...I'm Not arguing about how our past marriage needed to end -- my point is simply that there IS an element of choice in our new behaviors here, and that's all. But as you were saying...???
Note you are confirming HE is different...so why can't YOU be different too? (You both can be and you both are--but you cannot point THAT out to him or its pursuit and resistance and he'll fight that and cement his choices in.
3)If he starts throwing out numbers to you that are no where near what the formulas require then make sure to calmly tell him you have done some research (no need to tell him about the L) and found that the formula requires $xxx.xx amount per month. Let it sink in to his head. Say nothing else about it.
Mixed feelings. I prefer staying vague but showing that you are NOT confident about his numbers (unless he miraculously comes up with better ones than your L did--in which case say you need time to process what that all means)
But whatever number you throw out, TRY HARD NOT TO THROW OUT ANY NUMBER TO HIM, this is classic negotiation strateguy 101, you are NOT the one to say a number first....
and if you feel forced to give "a number ANY number!!" then toss out you best most reasonably accurate number and then add 50% so he cannot say you "got all you wanted" when the reasonable number is just that, a reasonable number you may end up settling on....
4)As far as legal separation, what would you want to accomplish with that? It doesn't do anything other than stop just short of a full D.
I disagree w/that a lot...
First, in California, legal separations keep spouses from being able to sell marital property, which MY spouse wanted to do to please his heroes in the tundra, as an "investment." He woiuld have done that with no regrets, (til later) IF I had not filed for separation which protected our marital assets.
SIDENOTE-- (About a year ago h mentioned how glad he was that "WE" did not mortgage our house for those guys...I said nothing...)
AND it kept me on his medical insurance policy AND several other death benefits still applied, that would have automatically disappeared by operation of law, if we divorced...AND, for some of us, (e.g., Catholics) it makes you feel a little less guilty (since my religion has made me an intersection for guilt, that matters).
It did NOT slow a divorce down b/c the time apart as a separated couple still accrued as if we were divorcing, as in "12 months separation for no fault" was still 12 months, whether we had filed for div or sep or nothing.
Trust me, he would only view it as a pathetic stall tactic. Men don't like games and it would seem like one.
WOW, THAT'S Not how my h viewed it at all. Not at all.
Nor did it get him to rush back into my arms but he sure took it seriously and not as a game. He was upset, to say the least.
There are some differences in the situation to be sure, but you cannot simply say all men will view it this way or that way....
what is the goal?
My experience was that my h saw that there was still a part of me that was willing to hold out hope for our m, but yet not be a doormat, just watching our life savings go down the drain b/c what he did already cost us several hundreds of thousands of dollars...
and having him lie to me, again, to go up there to "see what's going on", was too much for me. I felt I had to do something, DIFFERENT as my DB Coach said, "doing nothing from long distance was sure not helping."
Not all states have legal separations. But ours did. And
I filed for one to protect our marital assets, without ending the marriage. Sooo Not a game.
5)Ask him again if he would be willing to go to C with you not only regarding your anger issues, but also to learn co-parenting skills that will need to be in place before a D is final. You have very young children and have 18 years of this with him. It's going to be a long R no matter what the outcome of the M is.
Not clear here. Are you asking if HE"D go or is he asking if you will go or is the court or what??
any counselling together would be good I'd think. Especially if it's aimed at the kids b/c that keeps the blaming down. You cannot stare at him though, to say "SEE???? See what YOU are doing to them??" He's not immune to guilt and feels some as it is. Do not be the messenger of that. It backfires every time.
Plus, He probably thinks YOU caused this and to an extent, you own that. Second, it does neither of you OR the kids any good to point fingers now.
3rd, the counselling, whatever its purpose is an opportunity for you to show you can be calm and kind and rational and generous of spirit. It's 180 time!!
Being the best mother you can be at this time, and looking your best AND "faking it til you're making it" HELP
so be upbeat, cheerful if possible but regretful about the situation...
knowing that the more change he sees in you
the harder this is for him to do. And you want this to be very hard for him....so it's like that saying "kill him w/kindness"...
make sense?
As for filing and what attitude, how about something like, you need time to
" process all this b/c even though it's not new to YOU, h, it's still new to me. I just had a baby and am stopped nursing (if you did) & still getting my hormones and sleep cycle down to a more even keel/ level."
AND OR
"I'm just not ready YET for rushing into something that ends a long marriage with three children SO young"
AND OR
"Hold on h, I didn't know about this as long as you have...I just want to catch up with you about my new future..."
"Though I accept your decision, with regret- I need to take a breath for now H, just to catch up to where you are....but again, I'm not fighting you on this..."
(Notice you are not asking HIM to slow HIS thinking or actions down...just that you need time to catch up to where he is...and btw, you have a few physical AND PROFESSIONAL MATTERS to handle that he does not have...remember?
Oh yeah, you gave birth, haven't slept well, AND oh yeah, YOU need a new career path b/c aside from needing money NOW that you didn't need before
YOU ALSO need a job that allows for a parent to be with the kids....
KG, now and then you are allowed to scream into the pillow that your h's timing is the worst ever...well no, I do know a man/client who's wife served him papers at his mother's funeral b/c she "knew he'd be there"....so I guess that one wins....but NEXT TO HER...your h's timing is hideous.
Remember not to apologize for NOT being superwoman
but it's okay to apologize for trying so hard to be and then creating unrealistic expectations of yourself. Structured for failure...like many of us.
I don't know ANY woman who is a great lover/ great professional/, great mother/, great friend/sister/daughter and wife WHILE HAVING A BABY...
Frankly, what IS the rush to divorce anyhow? Seriously...why the hurry? I don't get it. He's with her as much now as he can be, and isn't she getting money from her h too? how will divorce help that?
How does it help THEM to rush it? Will there be more money for them? I'm confused...
unless...they're so broke--no, a divorce won't make HIM richer...
unless it's just pressure from her? Let's hope so. After all, she left her h and that was a toughie...so maybe she wants a reciprocal divorce from your h to "prove his love"...
all the better for YOU, imo.
hope this helps
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you all so much for all the advice in how to deal with H's divorce convo.
I really appreciate it. As of today, he has not said anything to me except "I want to talk to you about D. I don't want to file on you, I want us to work together. So we need to sit down and talk about it."
That was last Friday. I listened intently and told him I understood what he wanted. He wanted me to agree and I simply didn't offer any more info. He insisted and I said, I wanted to assimilate what he had just told me. That's it.
He has not insisted or filed. Like I said - we had a great day yesterday and today he is MIA.
But he will be here tomorrow to see the kids and I am mentally ready to keep the road home well paved. I am happy of how the weekend went, and want to keep it going.
I was asked if I was in counseling - I am seeing an anger management therapist and I just bought three more sessions with my DB coach. Even though I should not be spending the $, as of now, everyone has lost faith on this M - family, friends and I have no support with my desire to still save it, except for this board, so I really needed to speak to my coach. She is great and everytime I talk to her, I feel renewed strength and re-assurance that I am doing what is right and truly following my heart.
I messed up terribly. I own my faults and all the hurt I inflicted on H. I understand why he is so terribly angry and wants nothing to do with our old M. Like 25 says, now my actions need to show him that there is a future for us in a new R. These 11 months have had many ups and downs and backslides, but I know in my heart I have been trying hard and I am remaining hopeful and patient.
I agree that this is the worst timing possible for this separation to happen and an OW to be in the picture, but this is the hand I was given and I see it as an opportunity to become a better wife and mother. If this had not happened, maybe I would have never realized the hurt I was inflicting on H, and I would have continued on a path that was getting me and us nowhere fast.
I just hope it's not too late for H. I don't know what the rush is for him to divorce. Our financial sitch is already a mess and a D will not change that. He is with OW as well. The only thing I can think of is that he wants to D to eliminate his guilt. Both our families are Catholic and he cares about his family's opinion (specially his mom, who still doesn't know about OW's existance).
So all I can think of is that he wants to D so he can date openly w/o any guilt. But who knows... I cannot worry about that - I am focusing on my changes and efforts at this point. He can do whatever he feels he needs to do and I won't fight or beg. Just validate and kill him with kindness.
I am finally starting to feel like I am slowly improving my emotional state of mind. I was not that depressed today after the couple of hurtful things he did to me yesterday. Before, I would have obsessed about it and cried all day. I did think about it, but had a slight sense of acceptance that he is simply not the same man I married and felt some compassion for him, not really that much anger anymore.
I hope this is what people mean by detachment... I really really need to get there. It's been almost a year now...
Had a good day with the kids. Routine - pre-school, grocery store, swim lesson for the girls, dinner, bathtime and bedtime routine.
They are finally down and I am ready to work on my readings. This board and a couple of new books I bought on emotional abuse. I already started one and it's tough. I have read things that describe me and I have cried - I have made A LOT of mistakes. But I am learning and these teachings are becoming powerful reminders for me of where I will never go again.
Continuing my DBing..
Thanks again for all the support!
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
Yesterday H said he wanted to ask me a favor. He wants me to let him come on Tue and Thu and stay in the house, rather than have to take the kids to his place. Our visitation arrangement on weekdays is that he is supposed to pick up kids on those days and bring them back by 7:30.
Because he cannot get to my place before 6:30, that really only gives him 1 hr. to come and go, which doesn't give him much time for anything else besides take them for yogurt or something.
The reason we have that arrangement is because for months I had an open door policy and he just came and went as he pleased and unannounced. My original goal was to make it as easy for him to come home and be with us as much possible so he could feel welcome, see my changes and miss us. I did see some progress at first, but then it all stalled. He chose OW and was truly inconsiderate about my needs. I felt he was just getting the best of all worlds. Be with OW when he could, and be with our kids when convenient for his schedule.
So then I decided I wanted to establish boundaries as well to have him miss us and experience what a separation is and also to get him not to be in my house all the time so I could start detaching.
Anyways, the new weekday arrangement obviously is not working for him. When he asked last night he caught me off guard. I paused and said yes, but now I am not so sure what to do. Here is my thinking:
1) If I let him come and go again to my place and hang out, it would be a good opportunity to show him changes and try to make him miss home. As i said, when I tried this earlier this year, I didn't see any tangible results. On the contrary, he ended up choosing OW. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work this time - maybe I just needed to try it longer? My gut tells me that this is what I should do to keep the way home paved and have the chance to show him my changes.
On the other hand, it will allow him to have everything - OW, his kids and a life of convenience (and not realistically what a D would entail), and there might be no incentive for him to change anything.
2) I want H to be part of my kids' lives as much as possible. Yet, when I talked to a priest a couple of months ago, he told me that I am not being fair to my kids by letting my H have it easy. He said both H and I are perpetuating an illusion of a family together to our kids, while we are no longer that. He said my kids need stability and having H come and go as he pleases only creates more emotional turmoil for our kids. He said that since H has made his decision, we should not give them the impression that we are together, and since they are so young, we give them that false sense of a united marriage. Coming from a priest, this gave me food for thought...
3) If I say no, he will see me as uncooperative (which would be true), he might think I am just trying to punish him and might push him further away with OW.
4) I thought about negotiating with him. Backstory: I had asked him not to expose our kids to OW. (She has NOT introduced my H to her daughters (10 and 6) because she wants them to adapt to her separation from her H before introducing a new person.) I asked H why he and OW are not giving our children the same consideration. I told him it felt like a double standard where they are protecting her kids yet not ours. I said at least her kids are older and they understand the diff. between a father vs. a boyfriend and our girls are too young and are just starting to learn what family is. He didn't agree and said that precisely cause they are so young, they can learn this "new" setup w/o major repercussions. I told him he will expose them if he wants anyways (which he has done w/o telling me). And I asked that at least the kids do not spend the night with them when she is around. This has not happened yet, but she is coming down for Thanksgiving next week and he told me the kids would stay with them. So I was thinking about negotiating - he can come to my place to visit kids Tuesdays and Thurs if he agrees not to have them spend the night when OW is in town.
My bottom line request is: Treat all children involved equally. Don't expose mine until they are ready to expose OW's. That simple. I don't think it's too much to ask or that I am being jelous or unreasonable with this request. Am I?
The problem with this is that he can simply say no, get upset and not come over to my place on Tue and Thu. So then I would not accomplish anything to either protect my kids or further improve our R.
On the other hand, maybe it would be better for OW to start interacting with my kids. To have them both face the reality of their romance with children and real life problems in the mix - diapers, tantrums, midnight feedings, etc. It might help bring H back to reality or it could help them strengthen their bond as well...
I don't know how to proceed. I ULTIMATELY WANT TO DO WHAT WILL BE BEST FOR MY KIDS AND MY R WITH H. I want to give myself a chance to make any inroads with him but I don't what strategy to use at this point.
- be loving, cooperative, accepting of what he wants and welcoming at home all the time - establish boundaries and try to protect kids (might not succeed anyways) - go dim and act as what we are - a separated couple and let him see the consequences of his choice so he can miss kids and me...
Please - any help will be greatly appreciated.
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
I vote for let him come over tues & thursdays. But I can see either argument. The stance that I think is not DBing is negotiating. Dont negotiate that is too controlling. You would be using one thing to control something else.
I say let him visit Tuesday & Thursday as long as you can always show him the new you. If you think you will fly off the handle once dont do it.
I think right now your H & OW can bond over their crazy exs. Dont give them that common enemy. Show them how awesome you are. You are a fabulous mom and a forgiving person. Maybe get into sexy work out clothes when he comes over and go for a run.
I dont know what it means but I was struck that the OW also likes animal pet names as you do. To me it seems like the OW is similar to you but right now he only sees her good stuff and nothing bad. With time her bad qualities will come out (we all have them). You need to show them only your good stuff.
I think you should "be loving, cooperative, accepting of what he wants and welcoming at home all the time" however dont share too much about what you are up to. Have plans everytime he comes over and dont tell him what they are. Only talk to him about things that are totally necessary.
Just my 2cent. Good Luck you are doing great.
---- M 39 H 35 D5,D4 M 4 T 9 ILYBNILWY 5/18/11 Left 7/11/11 Divorced 12/1/13
Very simple. Ask him why. Ask him why he wants to come to your house on Tues. and Thurs. instead of his place. See what he says. After he tells you, tell him that you are uncomfortable about it because of what he has done and can't trust him and that you'll think about it.
He might throw a tantrum, but don't say anything, just stare at him. He's playing poker with you and poking you to see if there is any give. He's trying to see what he can get away with. Stand your ground based on what you are willing to give and feel comfortable with.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Hi Keep going. I read what you wrote on Brookly's page. You and I are so similar in behavior. I'm also a hot tempered Latin person. I'm loud and yell and you know what I mean. My W is English and very aloof. Emotions are a no no for them. I just wanted to say that you are not alone but at least you recognize it and doing something about it. That does not mean that your H has the right to do what he is doing. Hang in there
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
Yesterday H said he wanted to ask me a favor. He wants me to let him come on Tue and Thu and stay in the house, rather than have to take the kids to his place. Our visitation arrangement on weekdays is that he is supposed to pick up kids on those days and bring them back by 7:30. Just so I'm clear, is this a regular change now or is it just for Thanksgiving?
Assuming it's NOT a Thanksgiving issue, I rather like him going to YOUR place and showing him the new you AND decreasing his OW time...
Because he cannot get to my place before 6:30, that really only gives him 1 hr. to come and go, which doesn't give him much time for anything else besides take them for yogurt or something. THIS^^ situation stinks for all. You said your MAIN GOAL was what's best for the kids AND then the R you have with him...so to me, this part is easy.
The reason we have that arrangement is because for months I had an open door policy and he just came and went as he pleased and unannounced. My original goal was to make it as easy for him to come home and be with us as much possible so he could feel welcome, see my changes and miss us. I did see some progress at first, but then it all stalled. He chose OW and was truly inconsiderate about my needs. I felt he was just getting the best of all worlds. Be with OW when he could, and be with our kids when convenient for his schedule. Sounds like you are doing a good job of rationalizing being punitive.
I know you have legit cake eating issues, but over all, it just feels like anger won out there.^^^
And no, your efforts at being loving did not "fail" loving before, b/c he chose OW. He simply didn't trust the changes....so then you kind of did the old behavior again. What would a 180 be like now here? Hmmm??
So then I decided I wanted to establish boundaries as well to have him miss us and experience what a separation is and also to get him not to be in my house all the time so I could start detaching.
I get that. I do...& it's a tough call there.
Anyways, the new weekday arrangement obviously is not working for him. hey it's also NOT working well for the kids, is it? An hour with daddy? during the week, twice weekly? that's going to be a real drag when they are in school
and you're not really getting a decent break then either, are you?
Plus why not show him some GAL?
Like let him babysit all 3 kids while YOU GO OUT!???! OMG Show him the GAL!! Be a bit mysterious but uber upbeat and oh So relieved it was a "win win" for you both!
hey, we know that "Showing him The sadness" didn't work, and God knows the anger hasn't...but what if you became who you once were, or even better, and who he hoped/thought you were when he met you AND then what if he saw you GAL with the possibility of OMs getting the benefit of all "his" work on you? And what if THEN or soon thereafter, OW began to reveal a flaw or two?
Hmm, just wondering...
here's the dealio KG. Unlike 90% of LBSers with WASs who have As, you actually Do own your part AND your h does sound like a "once upon a time" decent guy and you ARE in a wretched situation with such young kids that MUST tear him up some....
so yeah, I see some hope. I have got to wonder what his family is thinking of their son doing this to such young kids...what's your r like with them again?
Oh sorry, I'm digressing...
When he asked last night he caught me off guard. I paused and said yes, but now I am not so sure what to do. Here is my thinking:
1) If I let him come and go again to my place and hang out, it would be a good opportunity to show him changes and try to make him miss home. As i said, when I tried this earlier this year, I didn't see any tangible results. On the contrary, he ended up choosing OW. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work this time - maybe I just needed to try it longer? agreed. Plus he did not choose her BECAUSE you let him hang out at the house....and it Can't hurt being nice! I'm betting he did not trust the changes before. OR maybe OW had more allure then, which is "normal" for this stuff. Plus you just had a baby/were pregnant and then later...you kind of Took your time to get on board if you recall....
My gut tells me that this is what I should do to keep the way home paved and have the chance to show him my changes. When in doubt, go with the most loving of choices...at least then if you are wrong, it won't be for the wrong reasons.
On the other hand, it will allow him to have everything - OW, his kids and a life of convenience (and not realistically what a D would entail), and there might be no incentive for him to change anything. what incentive does he have for changing NOW? The more anger he can see in your actions, real or not, the worse for you. Plus, the more change he sees in you the more incentive that exists for him to change some things. And btw, I seriously doubt he feels he has everything.
Unless I'm reading him wrong or hes totally a jerk now and not just going with a jerky streak in him, I'm betting he DOES feel some serious self doubt--NOT that he'll share with YOU mind you, but he misses those kids...and wonders about your changes. He has to.
2) I want H to be part of my kids' lives as much as possible. Yet, when I talked to a priest a couple of months ago, he told me that I am not being fair to my kids by letting my H have it easy. He said both H and I are perpetuating an illusion of a family together to our kids, while we are no longer that. He said my kids need stability and having H come and go as he pleases only creates more emotional turmoil for our kids. He said that since H has made his decision, we should not give them the impression that we are together, and since they are so young, we give them that false sense of a united marriage. Coming from a priest, this gave me food for thought... well it IS food for thought and I will have to ponder that. And I will.
But there's some parts of that I can see, for sure, but some of it rubs me the wrong way.
Can't quite explain it but almost sounds like he's saying "your h made his bed so let him lie in it"...
and how is it "unstable" for THEM to see him 2x during the week? I mean, "unstable" is seeing him less, like only every other weekend and one night a week, the standard visitation...
3) If I say no, he will see me as uncooperative (which would be true), he might think I am just trying to punish him and might push him further away with OW. I'm positive of this^^^ and that it is not going to help your cause, which is a bummer.
4) I thought about negotiating with him. Backstory: I read the backstory and it MOSTLY sounds like tit for tat anger stuff NOT relevant to this topic but more about THE PAST and OW and your pain about the A...imo
...but I'll go to the Turkey day events...and by the way, the single biggest difference between your kids IS their ages/maturity. The crap thing was your h agreeing to it and then breaking his word, IF that is what happened...I have a feeling you insisted on something and he did the conflict avoidant thing and then you believed he had "agreed", but I don't know...
I had asked him not to expose our kids to OW. (She has NOT introduced my H to her daughters (10 and 6) because she wants them to adapt to her separation from her H before introducing a new person.) I asked H why he and OW are not giving our children the same consideration. I told him it felt like a double standard where they are protecting her kids yet not ours. I said at least her kids are older and they understand the diff. between a father vs. a boyfriend and our girls are too young and are just starting to learn what family is. He didn't agree and said that precisely cause they are so young, they can learn this "new" setup w/o major repercussions. I told him he will expose them if he wants anyways (which he has done w/o telling me).
which is why you must pick your battles wisely.
He WILL do as he pleases and the more you argue about it before and after, the worse YOU make it.
Give him something to live UP TO, not "avoid the sin of...." make sense? The "boundaries" are useless if they only serve to make you look controlling
esp over things you have NO control over so the boundaries can be ignored or breached overtly or behind your back, and then the "fighting the battle" is useless AND worse, it's harming your cause and Not getting any of your goals met...
And I asked that at least the kids do not spend the night with them when she is around. This has not happened yet, but she is coming down for Thanksgiving next week and he told me the kids would stay with them. So I was thinking about negotiating - he can come to my place to visit kids Tuesdays and Thurs if he agrees not to have them spend the night when OW is in town.
2 thoughts on THIS^^^....1) NOT enforceable...it's just another thing he can "agree" to but feels coerced into and therefore did not really "consent" and therefore does not have to keep his word and therefore your "boundary" is ignored....and THEN you are powerless to do anything but get angry
2) this makes you come off as controlling. The events are not related. Whether she sleeps in a bed or the floor or they sleep together in a closet in a hotel-- makes little difference now, in the grand scheme of things.
Isn't this really more about your pain at the thought of it all? Or getting "replaced" even though you KNOW that's not rational...?? (It's common and normal but it's not rational!)
My bottom line request is: Treat all children involved equally. Don't expose mine until they are ready to expose OW's. That simple. I don't think it's too much to ask or that I am being jelous or unreasonable with this request. Am I? I think you are being jealous. I understand that, and I would be too. But yeah, that's how I see it. Also, in a way this is a lose lose for you
except in one respect...the reality of it all NOT "blending in SO WELL...SO PERFECTLY....
that ain't gonna happen and maybe the sooner they learn that, the better. B/c it'll be easier to turn this ship around before they get too set in their ways, let them see how it all DOES NOT blend so well.
And if we are all wrong, and they are soul mates truly meant to be together and you and OWs ex h were just egg donors, well, how does delaying that help? In fact the sooner YOU learn of all that stuff, the faster you will be able to detach
IF that is what happens...and if not, then it'll be easier for him to reverse course by finding out SOONER, that it's not going to be such a breeze for all the kids.
one thing, and you don't need to tell him this, is that I would not lie for him or cover for him with the kids. I would also NOT be the messenger of any awkward "bad daddy" news
but if that question comes up, from your kids, refer them to their dad and if his answer generates questions of you, be open and honest THEN.
The problem with this is that he can simply say no, get upset and not come over to my place on Tue and Thu. So then I would not accomplish anything to either protect my kids or further improve our R. CORRECT
On the other hand, maybe it would be better for OW to start interacting with my kids. To have them both face the reality of their romance with children and real life problems in the mix - diapers, tantrums, midnight feedings, etc. It might help bring H back to reality or it could help them strengthen their bond as well... Never too soon to learn...Yeah I'm leaning more towards this as I ponder the tough night we had not long ago (& our kids are grown, with one teenager who got the shingles) --who knew you could get those at that age??--and her misery was MY misery and geez, reminded me of the Chicken pox when they were so little and how lovely that was...yeah, let OW have it... I mean...well, you know.. and do we "know" anything about OW's h? Maybe he's an honest to God jerk, but I bet he's hurting...or maybe she just got bored?
.
I don't know how to proceed. I ULTIMATELY WANT TO DO WHAT WILL BE BEST FOR MY KIDS AND MY R WITH H. I want to give myself a chance to make any inroads with him but I don't what strategy to use at this point.
- be loving, cooperative, accepting of what he wants and welcoming at home all the time Me likey ^^^ AND what's the downside risk of it? Being a "doormat"? Really? I don't see that, not from you, and I mean that as a compliment.
- establish boundaries and try to protect kids (might not succeed anyways) your "boundaries" are not enforceable!...and protect them from what? They will meet her if she remains in his life, and frankly I'm beginning to think that the longer you keep them all apart, the longer the delay of reality[b] and the reality [/b]MIGHT be UNFUN for him and OW and
so maybe you are postponing a good development...make sense?
so, YOU keep changing you, and go ahead and let them see how green their grass is...
- go dim and act as what we are - a separated couple and let him see the consequences of his choice so he can miss kids and me... explain this^^^....
But what exactly are you saying when you mean "go dim" and "let him see the consequences"...?? I DO believe you must do some GAL for sure, with some mystery involved. And do NOT pooh pooh the idea of dating OM to your h if he says anything....don't be shocked or outraged....act as if that's probably going to happen and let him think sooner, rather than later if you want. You can laugh it off "oh h, as if I am even thinking that way now, oh you like my new perfume? So does my new...um, co-worker... "
Please - any help will be greatly appreciated.
it's not an easy situation.
Keep on keeping on.
No matter what happens, KNOW that you are becoming a better woman and wife than you ever would have been
but for this nightmarish ordeal - that will someday bring you to a place of peace and light and love.
Hang in there.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thanks for the advice. I agree with a lot of what you say. Yes to coming over on T and TH and being loving cooperative and accepting. I knew that was probably the answer, but having re-assurance helps. Thanks also for the tips on being busy and fabulous when he comes over. I have been doing this for some time now and will keep doing so.
I had not thought about the negotiating approach as controlling, so thanks for pointing it out. I agree and besides, I really have no leverage anyways and won't achieve anything positive by trying to negotiate. I am letting go of the fact that OW is already part of my kids' lives. H has already lied about it and opposing to it will just enhance an already bad situation.
You mentioned that maybe OW and I are similar because of the pet name reference. I think that probably was originated by my H... But even if not, I really don't think we are so similar. To my H, one of her greatest appeals is that she is always happy and "even though her life is tough, she chooses not to get upset about it." I acknowledge that for years, I have not only not been a fun person to be with, but have been negative and well - simply put - a downer.
So I am really listening to what H says about OW, because it gives me an indication of what I am NOT doing for him or giving him. So I have been working hard since he left to appear happy and upbeat and more positive when I am with him. He can see this. I laugh with my kids, we sing and dance together and I am focusing on not criticizing or saying negative comments. I try to see the positive in things and comment about even small things that give me pleasure and be thankful for everything I have.
OTOH, my H who was always positive, upbeat and incapable of even saying a fib, is now very critical of people, situations and of course, very quick to lie. Somehow the tables have turned a bit. It's sad for me to see him like this. I sometimes wonder if he is going thru a MLC.
Thanks again for the support!
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
Thanks for the response and feedback. I had asked H why he wants to come over. It's really a convenience thing for him and for the kids as well.
He gets off work at 6, so gets to my place at 6:30. Since kids need to be in my place by 7:30 to go to bed (on weekdays), that only gives him 1 hr with the. If he has to take them to his place, by the time he leaves, gets them in the car and off the car, it would almost be time for him to drive back.
So that would not give him any quality time with them. I get that, so that is why I have agreed to let him come over. Besides, rainy season is starting and I also don't want the kids to be out when it rains, and is already dark outside. They are still very young.
So for everyone's benefit, the best is for him to come to my place. I feel comfortable with this and think it's the loving thing to do for my kids and my H as well.
I think I have the option of leaving if I want to, and that is what I am doing. Last night as soon as he arrived, I left to have dinner with a friend and will continue keeping myself busy and GAL. And some days, I can use those opportunities of maybe creating more connection with him.
Thanks for the advice and support!
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
