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Going out and having some fun can be helpful to your confidence etc. A word or two of caution would be to play your cards on the table. Do not be selfish and do not pretend to be more available (ie: emotionally) than you really are.

It isn't right or fair to someone else or yourself and I think ultimately can do you alot of damage, if you find yourself involved before you are ready. What does ready look like? It looks like wanting to share and being able to do so openly, not needing salve for your wounds.

What about things you like to do in groups? A nice way to get out without any pressure.

"How soon is too soon, though? I've been separated for nearly half a year now. When does a person "start back up"? (I'm asking out of curiosity, not to "question" you. I ask questions to answer my own.)"

I'm not an expert since I've not had to do this before but I believe the rule of thumb is 1 year of healing post divorce, for every 4 years of marriage. For you, I think 1 year of healing post divorce would be sufficient. Only you know when it is time. Just go in with your eyes wide open and know that the statistics for 2nd marriages are not very good.

For some reason, I don't picture myself DB-ing very long, either. Others seem willing to wait for years if need be, but those are for long-standing M's with kids.



That's a pretty good marker of progress, I think. My W has said some extremely cutting things to me that have made me feel unappealing and unlovable. Pursuing an R right now would be to heal the feelings that have been dredged up because of that treatment, which wouldn't be fair to the other person.

Strictly platonic activities like group activities seem like a good way to go for right now. Fleeting R's and "having fun" might be good, too, if they arise, but only if I make it clear that I'm not looking for much more, like you said. I sure don't feel like jerking anybody around.

I've thought about it for a couple of hours, and I've figured that part of the problem is that I've framed this time period as "waiting" for my W. True, part of me does want to stay unattached because I do want to see if her A dries up and she wants to work things out eventually. But I should think of this more as a healing time for me. A time for building, a time for growth. A time to live for me and not her.

Instead of thinking of this as "waiting," I'll just be going with the flow and seeing what life brings me. The desire for romance and companionship for anybody else than my W is still pretty low right now, but one day that need will rise, and I will then know where I want to go in terms of my M.

Just a quick update. Got some good sleep this morning, woke up, got in a good hour or so of exercise, then had a quick breakfast. Most of my day was spent transferring my auto title from the state that I used to live in to the current one, as well as getting new license plates and tabs. I was VERY worried about this as my W was also on my title and I was concerned that she would need to sign off on the transfer with a notary and send it to me. Right now, I'd rather not bug her with stuff like this because I have a strong feeling that she would use it as leverage over me. ("Oh, so NOW you want to talk to me now that you NEED something? Well, HERE'S what's going to happen from now on!" etc.)

Fortunately, I only needed me. The whole thing cost exactly $100, which was reasonable given my budget. It was a bigger hit to the bank account than I thought it would be, but fortunately, my work is throwing in a $200 bonus this year for the holidays. Yet another reason why I'm glad that I have the job that I do!

The rest of the night will be spent finishing up my NaNo novel (less than 5K words to go, thank God), eating dinner, and reading "The World According to Garp." Sadly, as much as I'm loving this book, much of it has become a big trigger. Garp and his wife experience numerous counts of infidelity during their M. The first occasion, a love-square between Garp, his wife, and a couple that they're friends with, was so hilariously-written that it didn't bother me much.

However, I'm now on a scene where Garp's wife is starting to fall for one of her graduate students. It really hurts to read this chapter because John Irving describes so much of an A with accuracy. Her student is really not that attractive and is also unlikable in nature, but she is still drawn to him because of a lack of things in her M and because she's getting so much validation from the student's attraction to HER. Also, as she falls more for the student, she starts seeing more and more faults in Garp as a husband.

I'll just power through it because I doubt that the chapter will last that long, but just thought that I'd mention this. John Irving seems to get so much of it down accurately, and the subject is popping up so much in this book, that I wonder if it happened to him, too. (He did divorce from his first wife not too long after the book was published.)

Well, here's one heck of an update. My W called and I let it go to VM; she left one that said, "Hi, H, it's me. I need to talk to you about a few things, so give me a call when you can. Hope things are going well." After ten minutes of getting that VM, I texted her saying, "Got your message. What's up?" She texted back saying, "You need to talk to me on the phone. It will be quicker that way." (Yeah, sure. That's the only reason why.) So I went ahead and called.

This is an estimated transcript of what was basically said. Figured I should jot it down while it's still fresh in my mind. If it seems like things are jumping around from the natural flow of conversation, it's because I'm reconstructing from memory.

W: So basically, I just wanted to say that I've been looking into filing divorce and I want to have you sign the papers on Friday, Dec. 23rd. You can bring the bunny that same night, too. I talked to a lawyer and he said that we could convert the S to a D and that it probably wouldn't cost anything. There might be a filing fee, but that's it.
M: So is everything the same as it was put down in the S?
W: Yes, it is. Is that okay?
M: Yes, I just wanted to make sure that things were the same. They were pretty fair as it was. What else?
W: I also want you to refinance your car and the American Express card. They're still on my credit report, and I don't want them to be because they're your responsibility.
M: That's fine. You'll have to sign some paperwork with a notary and send them to me for the car. Is that okay?
W: Yes, that's fine. So here's where it gets antagonistic. Basically, I bought all of that furniture that you are using with my Bank of America student loan. So I either want you to give it back to me or pay me for it, whichever one. You have 8 months to decide because that's when I'm moving back.
M (I don't want to say anything because I'm not yet sure how to handle it): Okay, I'll have to get back to you on that. But don't worry, I'll get it figured out. That's plenty of time, and I do agree that I need to do something about that.
W: Okay, good. So....how was your Thanksgiving?
M: Good. [described how I had to do it alone because the pass was nasty]
W: Oh, that s*cks, dude! I would have called you if I had known about that.
M: Oh, it's okay... Anyway, I better get going. I need to make some dinner, and I'm getting hungry.
W: In a minute. You never talk to me.
M: Look...
W (angrily): What. What do you have to say.
M: I already told you how I feel about this.
W: So you're still going to act like this? OMG, you need to grow up and stop acting like a baby! You need to take this situation like a MAN! You are just being so selfish, just like you always were throughout our entire R. Why do you want to do this?
M: It's not just a want. It's a need.
W: Why are you angry at me?
M (wasn't aware that I was acting angry but can't deny that I feel angry at her a lot of the time, so I answer): I don't know. It's just the situation, I guess.
W: You think this is easy for me?
M: Well, it sounds like you're getting everything in order.
W: So you're just sitting there thinking that I had an affair and that I'm living in another state and that things are so easy for me and that I'm getting everything that I want and that things are so difficult for YOU. Well, I'm admitting that I handled things the wrong way. I had an affair, and I regret that very much. I wish I hadn't done it. But you have never once taken responsibility for what happened.
M: You know, I do feel badly about what happened. I wish I would have done a lot of things differently. I'm not saying that I don't think that.
W: You're just saying that because I suggested it, not because you actually think that!
M: That's not true.
W: You're just going to cut me and my family off after everything that we've done for you. I was the perfect W and GF to you. Now that the M is over, there's just nothing to say to me anymore. It's like the last six years have meant nothing to you. I was supportive of you through all that OCD cr@p, which was bullchit anyway. I should know. I have a degree in it. I was so supportive of you. You owe me.
M: You know, that's a good point that you raise. I do think that you were incredibly supportive of me, and I do agree that I put you through some really awful stuff. I think a lot of the time that I wish I would have done things differently.
W: How long do you think that you're going to act like this?
M: I don't see any end to it in the near future. Maybe things will be different way down the line, but right now, no, I don't see it changing.
W (kind of crying): Look, again, I do admit that I shouldn't have had an A. I will admit that. But it's like you won't accept your part in it. I blame YOU for our M dissolving. Now, because of you, I just assume that OM is constantly thinking about other women all the time because that's what YOU did. Because of you, I just assume that OM is constantly comparing how I look to other women because that's what YOU did.

I wanted things to change and they didn't change, so I did something to make a change. You kept saying over and over, "I'm going to change, I promise, I'm going to change," and you never did! You need to learn how to do something and make a change, too, instead of sitting around feeling sorry for yourself. You never once made me feel loved, and you never once made me feel special. I deserve to feel special.
M: I agree that you deserve that. And I accept my part in what happened. Look, I just don't agree with the situation. I hope that you're happy, and if things with OM are fixing what was wrong with us, then that's cool. I could see where you reacted because you were feeling....desperate...and unhappy. But this is how I feel.
W: Oh, "desperate," is that what you think? More like "fed-up." OM is not "fixing things" that were wrong with us. My R with him is something totally different than my R with you. He's bringing things that I never thought that I could have. OM is not the primary part of my life -- my internship is. But what I have with OM is something new. And besides, it wasn't just about you. I also liked him.
M: Okay, that's fine. Whatever you want to call it, that's fine. But I still feel this way.
W: You know, I just wish you would get up, make some changes, make some friends, and get a GF instead of sitting around being pathetic.
M (assertively): Look, I'm not going to take you calling me things like that. I'm going to go, and if you want to talk to me respectfully--
W: You know, after all the disrespect that I got from you over these last six years, I think I have the right to say what I'm going to say and call you some names.
M: No, you don't have that right. I'm not saying that you don't have the right to feel what you feel about what went down between us during our R. You do, and I totally think that you feel what you feel. But I will not have you say things like that to me.
W: Why don't you go ahead and tell me what my rights are? Since you seem to be such an expert on that.
M (fumbling for words, then settling): You have the right to respect how I feel about this.
W: Well, what about what I feel? What I want? You're not being respectful to how Ifeel and what Iwant, so we're kind of at a Catch-22, aren't we?
M (sighing): Look, I'm going to go. I'll see you on Dec. 23rd, okay?
W: To sign the divorce paperwork.
M: Yes, I'm signing the paperwork.
W: And if there's a fee, we're going to split that.
M: That's fine.
W: Okay. [sarcastically] Lovely chatting with you.
M: Okay. [I hang up the phone.]

Whew. Strangely, I'm not nearly as upset or angry as I thought I would be. I do feel sad that she's really going through with the D, but it's not like I didn't know that it might be coming for months now. I wonder if she's bringing it up just to get a response out of me or if she's really done. Who knows.

Some post-conversation analysis:

--I was very happy that I was a lot more assertive about my needs and less willing to take her acid tongue. I was also happy that I remained cool and collected during this, not getting accusatory or going "melty-man." It was tough, but I did not let her press my buttons this time.
--I liked that I got to tell her that I wish that I'd done things differently and that I feel sorry about the bad things that I did. I reflected on this in prayer a while before she called, and that seemed to keep me in a compassionate mood about her feelings.
--I still definitely think it's weird that she seems so upset that I don't want to have a friendly R with her while she's with OM. I understand that she wouldn't get this angry and defensive if she didn't still care about me somehow. (I forgot to put down above, she did say, "I still care about you" at one point.)

But it's still really weird. If I was this terrible, selfish excuse for a man who "forced" her to leave her M that was so full of disrespect and unhappiness, then why is she so dead-set on keeping me around?
--She barely mentioned OM at all and admitted that he was secondary to her internship, which seems like an odd thing to say. I gave her plenty of opportunities, saying "if he makes you happy" or "if you're happy what you're doing." I kept expecting her to say, "Oh, he does make me happy," or "Believe me, I am happy." But she never did. She never once said that she was happy or that things were going the way that she wanted them.
--Speaking of OM, all of that "we're going to get M'd, he's so amazing" talk was gone, too. Like I said, he was barely a part of the convo. It was also very strange how she started saying that she "assumes" OM's thinking processes are the same as mine because I thought that way in our R. According to her months back, she chose OM specifically because she felt that he WASN'T doing that.
--I was able to keep from taking things personally because I saw her still re-writing the marital history. I "never ONCE made her feel loved"? I'm 100% to blame for the fact that our M dissolved? Puh-leeze.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. I'd really appreciate any comments or words of support. Do you guys feel that I'm still doing the right thing by staying dark and keeping her at arm's length? I do care about her and wish that we could be close, but like I said, I just don't agree with these conditions.

I don't know where my future with her stands any more, but it's looking more and more bleak. I'm thinking that I'm going to be D'd in less than a month.

WCF, I am just hopping on the end here. I'm sorry to hear about this. Your W sure did place about 120% of the blame on your shoulders, didn't she? Since I'm hopping on the end, I don't know this - do you have your own L? Do you agree with the terms of the D? Is that time schedule she laid out really OK with you?

I think staying dark probably isn't a bad idea. It sounds like any conversation you will have will just be unfruitful.

west,
Holy venom...

I think you did a really great job at keeping your composure. She definitely threw a ton at you and I think you handled it like a champ.

I also saw some familiar DB sayings. Owning up for you part but not allowing her to verbally bash you - way to go!

I too question about how you feel about this proceeding. Are you getting what is fair?

I mean asking you to split the divorce costs - geesh.

There are a few threads out there from other vets that experienced this kind of outrage from their wives. Bustorama comes to mind as does Denver.

Maybe worth checking it out.

I don't think your w's reaction is NOT typical. It seems to be a phase they all go through. IMHO - all part of the justification game they play with themselves.

If you can, shift through the conversation and see if there is any truth behind it. If there is.. change that. If not, let it roll off your back.

Keep on with the changes though. I know it's hard to understand but I believe that spouses spew venom because they are noticing the changes... but having a hard time dealing with them.

I'll try to reply to you guys separately to keep my replies short. I really appreciate that you both took the time to comb through that post. I know it was a monster in length, but I wanted to be sure to get the dialogue in detail so I could get some accurate feedback.



Yes, but it's quickly becoming something that I'm all too used to.



Hey, no problem about end-hopping, I do it too. What's the better choice: Spending all day going through pages of threads or GAL-ing? No, I don't have an L. I've been very wary of getting one because A) I'm not sure if I need one, and B) don't they need a retainer for their services? I really can't afford anything, especially with the holidays coming up. If it's really necessary, though, I might have to consult the parents on helping me out.

I agree with the terms of the D since it will be the same as the S, which I helped file. The terms are about as fair as I could hope for. As for the time schedule, I assume that you're talking about the fact that she wants us to sign next month. What can I do about it, really? There's no point in not letting her D me. She's made it pretty clear that she doesn't want to be with me anymore.



I think so, too. I've been thinking about last night a lot, and I boiled down that entire conversation to one simple translation: "I want both you and OM at the same time and I'm mad that I can't, so I'm going to try hard to get you to drop your boundaries.

In the immortal words of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman: "I would do anything for love, but I won't do that."

Thanks! I know her enough at this point to know that she only acts like this when her emotions have been thrown into the mix. Clearly, it bothers her that I'm keeping her at a distance. (She did start crying several times but let the anger take over instead.)



Ever since you mentioned this, I have been pondering it. Yeah, I shouldn't have to help her pay to D me. Then again, if it's really as inexpensive a fee as she says it is, it might not be worth it to make a big deal out of it. The less battles I'll have to wage with her, the better off I'll be.



I very much agree. I felt this was the case because I've seen it SO many times in countless other threads. They have to think that we're 100% to blame or else that means that they actually had a hand in the demise of the M, which means they would have to assume some of the guilt and actually reflect on themselves some.



As for the first part, it's all we can do, right? I know I had work to do, but I also know that I'm no monster. Otherwise, she wouldn't keep trying to keep me close.

As for the second, I concur. I have spoiled her to years of me doing whatever she wants, hardly ever disagreeing, and jumping when she said how high. Now I'm standing up to her and saying no, so that frustrates her.

Just another update to say that legal advice is being considered. I called my little sister for emotional support about last night; she then talked to my dad and told him about the sitch, and my dad then called me to suggest a better way of going about this than what I had agreed to.

He said, in no uncertain terms, that I should not sign ANYTHING until I had a lawyer take a look at it. I told him that I couldn't afford a lawyer, and he told me that he actually knows some really good, really experienced lawyer buddies in my old hometown who could help me out with making payments if need be. He said that rather than me sitting down and signing something on the 23rd, I should probably just have my W mail me the paperwork, meet with an L and have him/her look it over, then mail it them back to her to file.

I felt a lot more comfortable with this agreement. It would make me feel a lot safer about going into such a groundbreaking agreement. Plus, I wouldn't have to feel like this is such a "deadline" sitch. I'll just calmly tell W that I want to have my L look things over, and when things look good, then we can proceed.