Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? really? no... reaaalllyy...?

Look, this is good man. IF this is the case, you are 100% right in your decision. BUT... This also gives you a clear path for you. FIX this...

HOW? That is the ultimate question. We all have different ways. I'm not sure it is ever a finish line.

Like has been said so many times, it is a process not a destination. SO... At some point you feel ready for A. Then B. Then C... etc...

One step at a time. And BTW, I realize you have already walked MANY steps... But work within yourself. Honestly. And this is what I think you did here.



I think this was me

And look, you did it again here... BUT YOU CAUGHT IT BELOW WHICH IS GREAT!!!!



Like I said, you caught it, so I don't mean to harp on it, but come one man...

This is how SHE FEELS. That is all.

You may feel differently. And that is all.

And can I be frank here? I happen to agree with her!!!

Sure, what she did may be "medically acceptable," but this is a 13 year old girl. She isn't training for the Olympics. She isn't on a pro sports team. WAS she tired because of this? That kind of [censored] IMO.

So I understand you may feel different about it. And that is fine.

But understand your W's feelings are just looking out for the best interest of your D. Even if they differ from yours.

She loves her too!!!!!

Sooo.......

I've seen you post the same things to others I am saying to you now. UNDERSTAND HER. TRY to at least.

Like my W. She IS NOT some wacko here. BUT... Let me add. I had a similar thought today.

My W text me tonight. Blah blah blah about details (which is fine of course). And then... "Have fun on the boat! Be safe!!!"

First thought: "Well, we could have a nurse on board (her) and it would be a lot safer!"

I admit it. This is my first thought. But then.... We just have to let these thoughts pass.

It doesn't help.

I guess if I have a point at all....

Your W is NOT crazy. Bad decisions? YES!!!!

But not crazy.

So don't immediately jump there. It won't help in the end.

We don't NEED a bad guy to point to here.

Just a GOOD guy. And that should be us

Agreed. Stop that. I do it, too, but it serves us no purpose.

You did good - u explained yourself clearly in a non-confrontational manner with regards to the party, got ur point across, and got a good response. I think that door will remain open for the future, which will be a positive for down the road.

However, ur W then tried to share something extra with u. While u may not agree, at least recognize that she did share. Communication will be required for your futures on behalf of the kids. Recognize it simply for that, see it as a positive (she could've told u nothing at all), set it aside and keep moving.

How you doing man?

Peace...

Thanks for the feedback, all...

Hey CS, doing great... really...

Had some breakthroughs, as they are, over the past couple weeks...

Had kids this past week / weekend... D9 tue to sun and D13 fri to sun...

W shared some venom this week at a friend as well as to me, yesterday...

Just put my ring back on... literally...

My pain is gone from my perceived loss as I've reframed my view from that of rock bottom...

So when my W sent me the venom along with a recap yesterday, that she'd be seeing her L today and getting her L to write up the separation / D agreement, I spend four hours thinking about it...

then responded, indicating I'd changed my mind...

I simply told her that I had spent a lot of time thinking about it all since our last talk a couple weeks ago and that I will not sign anything that was not determined by a judge...

I didn't think to mention at the time, and she hasn't responded to that, but if asked, I will simply let her know that I do not think that I'm the best person to decide on what's best regarding the kids and the asset dissolution so I'd rather that be left up to a judge...

As much as I was at a point two and a half weeks ago that I really wanted this done (many pressures), I've now found my peace... and in my peace... my power...

She really wants this, now and she wants it on her terms. Best case scenario, she'll get her terms, even through a judge. So no big deal. But if things don't go so well for her getting what she wants... maybe she'll bend on the kids giving me more time...

This legal decision makes sense to me KD.

Like you said (and I trust you put logical-legal thought into this--I mean, is it possible that you COULD be worse off with a judge??? Ask your L...)

But if the worst that can happen legally, is what she wants to have happen,
then you'd be nuts to not see a L...

Don't skimp on the legal costs only to have that haunt you later, or cost you time with your kids. What's that worth to you?

I'd rather Have a judge "screw you over" so you can be mad at him/her -instead of being mad at yourself or your w.

So-Did you decide to go to your d's b-day?

My thoughts were all over the place on this with me mostly leaning to you doing what's best for d8 and she wants you there so, show up, etc....

but if you can't handle being around w's family without having a scene, that decides it. Kind of trumps all the other arguments...(except you'll have to get a grip on that)

Regardless of that issue, let me make one comment that's relevant to something you fear that might not be true and imo should not matter.

The w's family's opinion...first off, you will likely never know who said what to whom, about whether you were "screwing" her in the d -

which your w wants to keep lawyers out of...(odd for someone who fears she's getting screwed in the div...)

second, if the family's view of you were something you could affect or control, that's one thing. But it's not and you can't. Or so I think.

If the family believes you are a purple lizard lesbian lover, would that bother you?


Or would you shrug it off b/c you know their "data" isn't real?

I think At some point you would shrug it off b/c after all, it's silly and irrelevant, and the data they have is NOT accurate. It'd be like you caring what a street person says about you when they're high and insane...Not relevant to your life.

OTOH--True, you will see these folks at events in the future so you want to get along. But how does seeing them now affect that?

FWIW I've got several siblings who are divorced. Eventually they ALL learned to get along at these occasions at least in front of the rest of us. None of them had "amicable" divorces, whatever that means..isn't it always the one who wants the divorce who says "amicable"?

But last month I attended the wedding of my niece-- (my brother and his 1st w)who divorced 25 years ago. I had only seen my former sil twice in all that time. It was an angry marriage and a sad bitter divorce...but their d was always strangely well behaved ("strangely"- b/c her parents were big time pot smokers and drinkers, who fought like crazy...)

Niece is getting her PhD and is in great physical and spiritual shape, picked a lovely young man to marry, they are active in their church and do a lot of missionary work. Amazing young couple. They're truly in love too.
WTH? I was nervous about seeing my ex sil b/c she had a serious temper and there used to be big scenes with her after a few dozen drinks..

Shockingly, my brother and his ex w were friendly to each other! They were proud and, honest to God downright warm with each other! I thought they'd end up sleeping together that weekend. (they didn't - but still).

I toasted my brother and his ex, I said "you put your own agendas and pain aside to put her needs first...You did right by her, and so look at her. She's proof that parents can divorce and still put their children first. You showed up for your d, and it shows."

It can be done. My brother went to every soccer game she had and they both drove from the east coast to Arizona for national championships and she got a college scholarship, went to Europe to play and her parents were there for her. They showed up for her. You can do the same, someday.

Hang in there...but one question, what's with the ring wearing?

Are you saying you are wearing it b/c now the L's will slow things down or Are you holding onto the hope for a recon yourself, or is this for some other reason?

Just asking.

nice 25, thanks...

I believe I have enough info from my L to understand what could be "worse" if a judge so chose...

My W could get 100% of the kids, I could be forced to pay child support (which my W thinks she can waive; I'm sure the judge would enforce it and it is right for me to pay, anyhow), I might not get spousal, and the asset dissolution could be less for myself...

With the kids, it's no worse than what is going on right now... with child support, like I said it is something that is right, anyhow... with spousal, I should be allowed it but if a judge said no, oh well... and as far as assets, I'm pretty sure (as my L suggested the offer is insulting) her offer is significantly less than what it should be...

On D9's b-day party, I did not go... My parents chose not to go, as well... the only two from my family that went was my sister (D9's god-mother) and my youngest niece...

I am actually glad I did not go. D9 really showed no ill effect when I talked to her the morning of her b-day nor when I picked her up on Tuesday. I really don't think I would have been stable enough to last there long enough...

Interesting though, there might be another OM... I suspected that to be the case, but not enough data... and guess who was also at my D9's b-day party... this "new OM"... This is the guy whom I've never met, yet is apparently such good friends with my W, whom as far as I know, has only been met by my W and kids late last year... this guy was introduced to my W and kids through her enabling friends and "original" (EA/PA?) OM who I found in my bed with my W... this new guy "rubbed" my D9's back while she was going to sleep this spring while they were at a weekend party at enabling friend's place... my W had early supper with this guy at her place, prior to me dropping the kids off at my W's this Sunday...

My D9 and D13 do seem to think he's a nice guy... fair enough... I'm just glad that I wasn't at D9's as I really have no interest in seeing the P/E dynamic between this guy and my W...

And yes, I really do not know what the in-laws think about me, aside from what my W has shared, if that is true (might be some truth, but likely exaggerated knowing my W)... I have no problems with accidental, 1-1 meetings and conversations with them at this time... it just would have been a little overwhelming to be with all of them at once...

I really do have no doubt that on the "one off" occasions like graduation, marriages, grand children (yikes) etc... I will step up and might very well have a great R with my W by that time, at least in relation to being able to be "warm" and friendly with her... for now... not so much...

The ring...?

TBH, I am not at all interested with recon with my W... not anger, just... not interested...

If you don't remember, truth is, I was the OM when I met my W... yes, the rationalization is she was exiting from a physically abuse R... still, she cheated with me on D13's bio dad... although I love(d) her, she was neurotic even then... I had concerns, but stepped up... I did not expect to "fix" her, but I saw the good in her and it poked through and shone from time to time... as did the neurosis...

I've been holding off calling my W MLC, for the usual reasons... and yet, I can show probably 90% proof that she IS MLC... but who knows... the point is, IF she is MLC and guessing where she is at (likely mid way through replay), then there is very likely another 2.5 to 3 years before she even begins to own her part in the breakdown of our M...

I COULD wait... I suppose... but as with MLC or simply WAS... there's no guarantee what her choices or thinking might be at that time... I'm OK with moving on... I really am...

In 4 more years, my D9 will be able to "choose" which parent she wants to live with, D13 already has that "choice"... I don't expect that my W would deny me access to my kids, regardless of what a judge might rule or what the L might write up... because as far as my W's past behaviour, there are far too many occasions in the future that she will want to go out and party and be with some OM and I'll be the "logical choice" for where the kids will be at those times...

Nah... the ring is only on because, and I don't care if I appear to be vacillating on D or not D, I might sign off on an offer from my W or I might hold off for a judicial ruling, or... who knows... I wear the ring one last time to remind myself that I DID stand for the M... I DID stand for my W and my kids... and my W would not stand with me... and that's OK...

When I sign off on the M... I will take the ring off... I'm OK with that... I did everything I could... my W is making choices I cannot control... nothing I did, said, whatever... none of that "changed her mind" nor broke the camels back... where we are right now, where we are going with the D... I know it was what my W was going to do, no matter what...

I have my life to live... I have my kids to be a father to... my W is looking externally to find her happiness... and the future is a lovely mystery...

Thanks for checking in, 25... you've been a great support...

you're very welcome KD.

One comment, and it's not a biggie at all. Just a curiosity thing.

I'm not a big labeler of "MLC" b/c I think it's over used and am not sure there is any empirical evidence that suggests MLC is more likely to snap out of it or come home than a "regular" WAS, whatever that is. I use it for my h in the signature block mostly b/c it saves time and b/c his behavior really was out of character in a rather short time span.

At the time it was all happening though, I really wanted a "diagnosis" that allowed me to not feel like an idiot for marrying someone who would pull such a stupid move.

At some level I guess I feared he might have been a jerk for longer than I had seen and I had been a fool or a doormat. And of course I didn't want his behavior to be reactions to MY behaviors if that meant I had been more to blame than I could handle, at that time.


When I see it here so often I wonder if LBSers are looking for the same thing, an "out"...so they aren't "wrong", kwim?


But if your w cheated on her first h, and then cheated on you and now is with at least a 2nd OM...why is an MLC anymore likely than just a pattern of hers? Does it matter? Not for you.

It means nothing about your choices -b/c if she Is in a pattern of behavior and this is the simply the culmination of it, you'd move on.

And if this is MLC and you don't feel like waiting another 1-836 years with no guarantee of her returning, you'd move on...so,

no biggie- Sort of thing only a long time DB veteran would wonder I suppose.

You sound really good, given the givens. I have no doubt you will rise to the occasion for your d's when the occasions warrant it.

BTW-How is your d13? And her r with her bio dad?

Please remember you are likely THE role model for them as to what men are supposed to be like--even when they hurt, iow,

still being strong, still being there, still showing up for your life and the lives of those depending on them...

((( )))

I completely understand what you are saying, 25...

I don't want to label my W MLC as much in the sense that, with MLC, time is the only answer... at least there was a fighting chance if it is NOT MLC... something I could DO...

In all fairness, my W has been "MLC" for as long as I've known her... lol!

Naw, I just use it as a time benchmark. Nothing I've done worked. I have no idea what else i could have done. And IF I would have done something that worked, I would really not want this person back, especially if she was NOT MLC, and this really is who she wants to be... so if I put it in a MLC time frame, understanding how long it would be before she "snapped out of it" allows me to understand that either way, I'd have a long time before she became anyone remotely that I would actually want to be with... so I might as well move on...

I think that made sense...

In case that isn't clear... if my W is an MLC monster, then I don't want to be with her... and she will be displaying those symptoms for at least another 3 years if she is (according to most "averages" I've seen; IF she's in "replay") or she will always be that monster... I'll pass...

She said to me before and stated it again in her "custody" demands, that I could have the kids on their birthdays because she really didn't care if I did... the number of times she's "left the kids" to go party and this type of convo... not "caring"... it just doesn't really sit right with me... I mean, I get that she'd get a baby sitter (or pass them to me), etc. to go do "adult" stuff... I certainly appreciate that... but there's the odor of abandonment that just seems odd... leaving my 13 yr old at home for overnights by herself, while my W goes to a party and sleeps over... just... smells... and she's never had her dad (who lives in the same community) watch the kids when she does this... wouldn't "look right", I'm sure...

IF she was MLC and MLC is a condition of unresolved childhood issues, than it would revolve around the time her parents split when she was around 13 or so for a year, and she began her journey with drugs that included going to school so stoned that she was puking in classes and skipping out to drink and smoke at the local pits where she lived... from what I understand, that lasted at least until graduation, at which point she continued to drink a lot... and again, a reminder that her dad was a booze rep, so she drank a lot of his "samples" that he had stored (boxes of them) during her teen years...

MLC or not, she'd have a lot of unresolved childhood issues that absolutely showed up in her personality throughout her life... oh, and her uncle committed suicide when she was late in her teen years, her cousin (her uncle's son) in his tween years found the body after the uncle committed the act. Woah... way too long a story regarding her family, and that "part" of the family, and blah, blah...

And I will not be using MLC as a label for her to others as some justification for her behaviour... she is who she is... she doesn't need a label to protect her from facing the truths when she looks in a mirror, or other's faces...

The cheating IS a pattern, at least in some degrees... I was not the first "cheat"... she confessed (to the kids, of all people) early this spring, that she had cheated on a BF back when she was 16 or so... said she "regretted it"... bah... I was absolutely a cheat with her (but justified, in her mind; and not public knowledge), so I know she doesn't regret cheating... she just "frames it" in a positive light...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not get into a lot of talk with D13 regarding her bio dad. From what I understand, the contact they have is decent and he's an "OK guy" outside of his addictions, which she is aware of, just never been exposed to, after he was "evicted" from her life when she was 2...

I figure if she wants to talk more about that, she will... I just ask every once in a while about if she's seen or talked to him "recently" and how it went... he still isn't anything "regular" in her life, probably every three or more months between contact at best...

She is doing really well though. Her attitude with me (the "loss" of my regular presence) has changed. We've built a great R, even when I was still with my W, but leaving threw D13, no doubt... but I see in our contact that she really does miss me and loves me very much, even with her teenage hormones... lol!

D9 and I are still really close. No sign of distancing... It was interesting though, a little "sad"... she asked me on the way back to my W's on Sunday if I would ever "run away with us"... at first I thought she was talking about "running away to the circus" or something (like escaping life's drama) so I said "sure"... until I realized she was talking about me taking them away from their mom, like we had talked about how many "missing kids" have been abducted by a parent or some relative... I quickly backtracked and said, "absolutely not"...

Many signals there, no matter how you slice it... She did appear to process it in a positive light, though... comfortable that I would never steal them away from their mom... again, D13 is aware that apparently her bio dad threatened to abduct her from my W before he "left"...

On a side, I'm guessing my W still went to see her L, even though I said I'd only sign off on a judge's ruling... guess it didn't go as well as she thought, or some other plan is now in motion, because she hasn't updated me on any "good news" from her L meeting, today...

Of all the reasons why she is finally ready to D, I think one of them might stem from some info I'd heard that she might be planning a winter cruise this year with her OM... I'd expect she wants to do it "officially" and publicly and would not be able to, unless we are divorced... no matter her justifications, she never wants to be publicly noted as "cheating"... too much bad press for her career and her familial reputation...

Just a L update on the sitch...

I got an email from my W on Thursday indicating she had in fact seen her L...

From what she indicated, her L will be drawing up the paperwork and it should all be done by the end of the month...

There's a few interesting things about this:

+ they are legal separation docs
+ they will be witnessed by a public notary

I expect my W's L advised as I assumed she might be...

There is technically no such thing as "legal separation" in our jurisdiction. I won't know exactly the content of the doc until I get them for review (and will pass them by my L). The only thing this doc would do is remove ourselves from further legal liability of the actions of the other, from the time of signing. So for all intents and purposes, our M continues along as though we entered the M with a pre-nup...

The more interesting stuff is, technically... we can file for divorce on Nov. 5... by the time these docs are created and signed, we would be only one month away from D... why bother...?

My W (spewing venom) complained in the email that she had to shell out some pretty good coin to get these docs done... something she previously said was pointless... that she had apparently been advised against doing, 6 months ago (by people other than her L)... the amount she had to pay is at least 4X more than she thought it would cost, to do the D on our own... again... why bother...? When we can D in two months...

I expect my W was advised by her L about the whole child support and custody thing... as I've researched and based on precedence... a judge would likely rule 50/50 and I would have to pay child... and a judge would probably give me at least some spousal... which would balance itself out, of course...

and that's the thing, although I understand my W may not be thinking clearly at this time...

If she's not lying about the financials... lol... then the only thing she'd loose is her 80/20... child and spousal would balance out...

Yet she was so bound and determined to D and was completely against leg S and associated costs... and she wanted to change her name, thinking there'd be no cost, and maybe she'd have the option with a D... but for sure she'll have to pay for name change now... oh... and a friend of mine had to get "permission" from her ex when she D'd her spouse only six months ago... but I've told my W that I would certainly agree to her getting her name changed...

Anyhow, just some thoughts...

None of the above says anything really, except that my W is still... all over the place... not making any sense... saying one thing and doing another... and then spewing venom at me because again, this is all my fault, because she had to spend big money to get this doc done...

bah...

lol...

Just a note here:

My W asked me if I could take my D9 to a meet the teacher tomorrow... She asked last Friday... didn't get back to her 'cause I'm GALing... anyhow, she asked again yesterday and I checked and found that I can, so indicated I could...

Anyhow, in that exchange, W then mentioned that she is out of town so can't do it and that her dad would be watching the house and kids...

So... I finally get to have a f2f with someone my W claims thinks I'm trying to scr3w her... thinking, this should be interesting... and since I'm wearing my ring again... might make for an interesting conversation piece... lol...

but anyhow...

~~~~~~~~~~~

So it just dawned on me... literally...

The ONLY thing I've EVER asked my W for, was 50/50 of the kids... everything else has been of her offer...

duh...

Like the complaint that my W said as far as scr3wing was that her family was upset because she was having to scramble to come up with the money for the dissolution...

ummmm... I'll TAKE the money that's offered... but I never demanded it...

anyhow... again... probably something I'll forget in the future, so just figured I'd post it here in the event that I ever need that reminder...