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Journaling:

My mom came into town last week to help me get the house back in order since my wife moved out. We cleaned the house thoroughly and repainted the living room. My wife has always been interested in house design so she painted the walls. I have the paint for the other rooms, but for some reason it was really hard covering up the living room walls. So, I'm not too sure if I am ready to cover the other walls.

I had the chance to read a nice chunk of the DR book. I learned a lot. I have some new goals that I am working on. I read the chapter about depression and it made a lot of what is going on make sense. At one point in my life I was clinically depressed. I remember just wanting someone to listen and hold on to. I'm ashamed that I missed the warning signs, but I believe my wife has been depressed for some time now. Instead of recognizing the symptoms (being down, loss of libido, driving around a lot, isolating, massive amounts of sleep, hunger loss, etc) I instead thought she just didn't care. I tried working with her a lot and even made some excuses for her behavior.

To preface the next story a bit...Around 2004 I became very ill. I had to take a lot of time off from work in order to heal. After healing, I worked at a company for almost two years and then became ill again. I had to take around six months off. After which, I started touring in 2008. In 2010 I lost my job and it's been difficult getting back on track. I'm self-employed and work in the music touring industry. The job I lost consisted of touring quite a bit. The artist decided to record a new album and no longer needed the touring crew. Our contracts were terminated. Things were slow for awhile until the Nashville flood happened. My business started picking up at that point because I was being hired to clean and repair broken audio gear. After this was done I continued working with one of my clients going back on the road. It looked very promising and there were quite a few tours scheduled. Then, it seemed that everything started falling through the cracks and shows, festivals and tours were being cancelled. Eventually, my work dwindled down to nothing.

At this point my wife said that I needed to pick between her or my career. My income was either feast or famine. I was receiving financial help from my mother (quite possibly the most humbling, depressing thing I've ever done). My daughter was getting to the point where she would freak out before I went out of town. I knew my wife was right. I wish she would have approached me different rather than giving me an ultimatum. She was right though...I accomplished all my goals and was desperately wanting to spend more time with my family. So, I began switching careers...which turned out to be more difficult than I hoped.

Fast forward two months later and here we are. As you can see, it's been rough on us the last two years or so. Throw in the fact that I was preparing to start college in the fall and whole slew of other things and you have a nice recipe for stress. Around this time my wife started "running". She would drive around town all the time, her smoking became worse and she was spending a ton of money that we didn't have. Then she dropped the bomb.

Reading DR I saw that depression can actually trigger a MLC. Here is where the OW comes into play. Well, at least this is my opinion. My wife started hanging out with her a lot. She looks up to her and would talk about how she would listen and make her feel better. She talked about how this woman was the least judgmental person she knew. If you look at my past posts then you will see that this OW is married, but I (and everyone else) thinks she is gay. She won't admit to it as she is very religious. All of my wife's friends (including me) warned her that this woman was starting to develop a crush on her. It bothered my wife a bit, but then she came to the point where it didn't bother her. She told me that for one the OW would never come out and number two my wife said she wasn't gay. I can understand that. If a man had a crush on me it wouldn't really effect me...I like women. I would be clear with him about that, but it wouldn't effect my friendship. I'll let you read my other posts to get the details. I'll admit that I was insecure during my illness and would tell her that she would eventually leave me or have an affair. I'm confident now, but when she was gone all the time and the whole OW thing, I questioned her. I think any person in my position would.

So, when I was dealing with the same thing my wife is dealing with now, I just wanted to someone to do with me what the OW is doing to my wife. However, I do believe that this OW is "being supportive" and encouraging my wife with hugs etc. I do believe she is taking advantage of my wife's mental state to get her jollies off. I know this sounds kind of weird, but it makes sense.

I just feel bad that I didn't notice what was wrong. I love that woman and always did my best. It's tearing me up, but she is making her own decision here.

It's been strange lately. My wife has been nice to me. She was yelling at me a week ago for shutting the trunk of her car and now she is nice. She owed my mom some money and offered to bring it over to the house rather than making me pick it up. Then I was looking for a shirt for a job interview and I couldn't fine it. I text messaged her and asked if it got mixed in with her laundry. She replied yes and she washed it for me, then said she would drop it off at the house. I politely told her that I would pick it up when I picked up the kids the next day. Then today, I can't say with 100% certainty, I think she told me she loved me when I was telling her bye. As suggested, I make it a point to get off the phone first. As I was telling her that I was going to go, she said something, and I think it was I love you, but I don't know.

Either way, I can't take any of it to heart. Even if she did it was probably out of habit...and that's assuming that she did. I'm going to assume she did not and move on.

Today was rough with the kids though. Lately they have been crying (especially my oldest) over the smallest things. As I'm sure many of you know, kids do not generally say that they're sad, but they act out. Today my daughter wanted to go to her mom's house. I had her mom come and pick her up. My wife asked what was wrong and I told her that my oldest was having a hard time. With her moving out and me painting and putting in new furniture reality was setting in. She replied with, "it'll get better". An hour later I get a call because my oldest was crying hysterically wanting to come to my place. My princess does not act this way. There is obviously something wrong. My wife said that she thought that my daughter was trying to control us and that we need to make a plan and stick with it..."we can't let her push us around".

Okay, I know I'm not supposed to say anything. I know she's in denial and doesn't realize what is happening. But, my kid is in pain, so I told my wife that it's more than just her pushing us around. She asked what it was. I got a bit confused as to what to do considering I shouldn't be bringing up the D or the M. So, I told her that I wasn't going to say and we should just drop it. Of course she got frustrated...but oh well. I told her that I think my oldest should stay with her because she is having trouble being around the house. She hung up then called back because my D was still freaking out. I figured that this is my kid and I need to say what I think is going on. So I told my W that she was having a hard time because of the D. I told her she needed to understand that this is hurting the kids and they feel like their very foundation was being ripped out from underneath them. Again, my W got upset and told me she would figure something out. At this point I was a bit frustrated and I called my daughter on her phone and told her I would be there in 15 minutes to pick her up.

When i got to my W's apt my daughter was much calmer. My W joked with me that she was doing her hair because my D told her I didn't know how to do it and her mom needs to show me. This was the first time that I walked inside of her apt and it KILLED ME!!! Seeing our old furniture mixed in with new stuff all around the place....it seemed reality hit me pretty hard.

I probably shouldn't have said anything about how the kids were feeling, but for goodness sake...making it sound like the kids are trying to control us is ridiculous. Whether or not she wants to admit it the kids are hurting....BAD. She may think I'm pursuing...but at this point, I don't care. I'm not going to punish my kid for trying to get her way, when all she is doing is letting out her emotions the only way she knows how. There are times that we do need to keep them in check...but, denying that this is hurting them is wrong...wrong...wrong.

So, what do I do next time? I was trying to keep my kids' well-being in mind. Any advice is welcome. I don't want to be perceived as pursuing or making her feel guilty or bad. But....

I got suckered. I thought things were looking up a bit because my wife was being nice. I knew in the back of my mind it meant nothing, but I was hopeful. She made it clear that she is still planning on staying away. I think I did pretty good controlling my emotions...but I'm sure i have room to improve.

This is where I could use Sandi2's advice (or anyone really). What the heck is she thinking? Why is she suddenly being nice? Is she really that happy to be away from me? Sometimes it just feels so hopeless...which is par for the course I suppose. I read in DR that we need to be on the lookout for signs that we are on the right track with what we are doing. I think her being nice and washing my shirt, then offering to drop it off by my house is some sort of indication that I might be on the right track. I know that my expectations are off, but seeing her so adamant about staying away is sobering. This obviously makes things confusing for our (or my) poor little male brain. Are these really signs that I'm on the track? Was saying what I said about the kids hurting a bad thing? I wanted her to understand it's not a power play being used by the kids. I don't want to push her further away, but these are my kids. I do think that I should let the kids stay at her place so she can see for herself the effect this is having on the kids...but, I don't want to use my kids as a pawn in this twisted game. Plus, she's my little girl and I can't stand to see her cry. However, if I keep taking the kids then aren't I enabling my wife or protecting her from having to deal with the choices she made?

Thanks again everyone...One last question...any suggestions on how to keep the peaks (with her being nice) and valleys from being so extreme? I'm really trying to keep busy, but still....

Sandi2,

Okay, let's try this again....

Sandi2...i've been reading a lot of your posts lately. I love your honesty and the way you bust people's chops when they need it. This is why I addressed this thread to you. Please smack me upside the head when you see fit. I appreciate "tough love" :-)


That goes for anybody...don't be afraid to bring me down to size. I would much rather hear what I can do better than to have people praise me for doing something right. Please hold me accountable.

Thanks....goodnight!

David…we are dealing with a lot of the same things and it is very confusing. My W has admitted to me that she has had times when she “manufactures” anger. I think it helps her justify her pursuing the D. She also has told me that she is afraid that being nice to me will give me false hope that our M may be saved. When she is nice, she seems a little drawn to me and I think that scares her. She doesn’t want to get “sucked back in”. She has actually told me that. It is very frustrating. I think that helps explain the severity of the peaks and valleys at least in my case. Maybe yours too??

I am certainly no expert but it seems that their perspectives get very skewed and they will cling to anything that helps justify what they are doing while completely ignoring anything that doesn’t. I have been DBing for two months and feel a lot better about myself. I have tremendous pain for my kids. I think you are absolutely correct in putting your kids in the front of your mind. Maybe your approach will help her see the effect that the D IS having on the kids. I don’t know and it often seems there are no clear answers. I have had the same thoughts regarding my kids reactions but haven't brought them up yet.

Just strong and work on you and protect and love your kids. You can control that.

David,

Man I feel for you......been there and done that for sure.

The questions you have I will answer.......

However I want to be clear.....the answers will not dictate the actions you need to take.

You are looking for hope in things your wife says or does to keep you in the game.......this is completely normal. Do not put your hope in people, they will fail you everytime.....even your spouse.

The hope to save your marriage should come from within you and from GOD alone. Often times we the LBS are looking for something externally to tell us it is really over and that we can move on with our lives.

It is kind of like when someone close to us dies........some people can not really believe that a loved one is really dead unless they see the body. After they see the body, then reality sets in and they can start to move forward, move on....whatever........the important thing is that they move and not get stuck.

Well in our situation with our spouses, we will not get that "dead body" to help us move......we look for it in the words our spouses speak and in the actions they take.......but then they do something like....."wash our shirt" or be nice to us, our say "I love you" and we immediately hang all our hopes for a reconciled marriage on the littlest thing that our spouse does.

All it does is confuse us and twists us and turns us and makes us crazy and causes us pain. The kids go through the same thing and it causes them pain too. (More on the kids in a minute.)

What you have to do is detach from her words and actions.....and when we say detach, it is not just detaching from the negative stuff but also the positive stuff also.......in a way the positive stuff is worse and more painful.

You can not detach from her if there is contact......try to limit your contact with her as much as possible.......this will be hard because of your FEAR.

You FEAR that if you do not interact with your W or return a nice gesture that she will really be done. Well guess what she will use that one over and over again to suck you back in. You have to kill that FEAR....it is driving you right now.....again completely normal but it will keep you from doing what you need to do and will prolong your pain.

I am really glad that you are reading DR and the light is coming on for you.....it did for me too.

However, as you are reading you are learning about tatics and techniques that you can use that can save your marriage......and you are eager to show your spouse that you have changed and that you understand.......I get all that,

However

The thing that most people miss in DR and is key before you start to use these tatics is working on yourself.....and you cannot possibly start to REALLY work on you until you detact and let go of her.

I hesitate to put a timeline on it but I would say a minimum of a month if not 2 or 3 months honestly, additionally David you are definitely dealing with MLC and the timeline is much longer and it is much uglier.

So to sum up what I am saying to you is that you need to focus on you and your kids.......yes it will be difficult and you will have questions about your W's actions and words however DO NOT let your focus off of YOU and YOUR LIFE!!

Now for some of your questions......

Why is she being nice to you when just last week she was so nasty???

This is normal, she knows what she is doing is wrong and therefore has to justify it by making you the bad guy and covering her pain and suffering with anger. Anger can mask the true underlying emotion a person is usually experiencing.....which is usually PAIN.

She will return to being nice to make it all okay as if everyone thinks this will be okay and the kids will be alright and that this is the right thing to do.........do you know who they are really trying to convince?????

THEMSELVES......they don't believe the bullch!t they are shoeling but maybe if everyone else around them believes it then some how it will be real.

When you try to snap them back to reality by telling them that the kids are suffering b/c of their sh!tty decisions.....well get ready b/c that will just piss them off and they will go into "Possessed Demon MODE", spewing hate and anger.

The best you can do is leave her alone completely......if there is no one to sell the bullch!t to then it will be that much quicker that she will start to question what she is doing.

You HAVE to let her figure it out on her own and it will take TIME.......MONTHS more than likely.

So, what do I do next time? I was trying to keep my kids' well-being in mind. Any advice is welcome. I don't want to be perceived as pursuing or making her feel guilty or bad. But....



David,
Here is the part that really sux....the kids. As if you don't have to be super patient with your own pain and feelings and suffering but now you have to help your kids also.

THIS IS NOT FAIR, but you have to rise above.........BE THE BEST DAMN FATHER ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH..........

You have to put YOUR HURT, YOUR FRUSTRATION, YOUR ANGER, YOUR TEARS, YOUR EVERYTHING.........

and be there for YOUR KIDS.

Comfort them love them and support them, let their needs be your focus to take your mind off of what your W is doing. I know this is hard b/c your W is the cause of the pain. You want to stop your kids pain so you think that you should do something about the source of the pain........right?????

Wrong!!!!!!

The source of the pain, you have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER.....so stop wasting time and energy.......the war is raging on and the causuaties are gonna keep coming......you are the field doctor, treat your patients..........stop trying to make peace and stop the war.

Hang in there.....it will get better in TIME....I promise.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Thanks for the responses, please keep them coming.

MHL,
Since she's been nice to me we have been talking a lot more. However, this is part of her game and I will do what you said. I know that in order for me to move on then I have to let her go and quit worrying about what she is doing. But, since this is basically a game, is it wrong to look at what she is doing and question it from a strategic (not emotional) standpoint? Kind of like a game where she makes a move, I analyze it and then my move accordingly? Or, should I just kind of say screw! it? I'm not sure how I could DB with the screw it attitude. I'll keep reading DR and I'm sure that will answer a lot of questions.

There is something I need to know though. I feel like her and I had something special that most people don't have. I feel like the MLC is clouding her reasoning. I feel that it is inevitable that we will get back together. It's one of those feelings that you get in the pit of your stomach, if that makes any sense? I know that God's plan would be for us to reconcile, but he won't control anyone's free will. I don't want to sound crazy and I hope you understand what I'm saying, but I almost feel that God has told me this.

My question is this....is this feeling a normal thing that most people in our situation feel? Could it be that I'm in some sort of denial? My emotions and thoughts are everywhere right now. I don't want to hold on to false hope. Just curious if this is something I should hold onto, or understand my situation and ignore it.

Does anyone else feel like they are in high school again?

I lied...one more question.

How should I handle the situation with the kids? As I mentioned before I don't want to use them as a game piece, but my wife needs to see what she is doing is hurting the kids. I bought my oldest a cell phone so she could call me or her mom anytime...I hoped this would help with the transition. So what do I do when she calls asking to come back home with me? Should I make her stay at her moms? Should I go get her? What about when my wife calls me telling me that my kids are upset? Well I guess I should just not answer the phone when the W calls, right?

I just feel like by me always going and getting them I'm keeping my W from seeing the hurt she is causing. BUT, I can't stand to see my girls cry.

David I'm new to this but will give it a shot.It seems that your W is using the children's emotions to get to you and you fall for it.Or you use them being upset to see them and your W. I know they are your kids and you love them to pieces but the fact is that if you are separated and that is what your W wants at this time, she will need to deal with the kids when they are upset. I have a feeling that she knows the kids are hurting because of her decision, but if she is set on leaving you she will need to learn on how to deal with the pain on her own. When your D calls you? That's a though one. I will take it one day at a time and really look at weather you need to get her. just my 2c

I am going to take what you asked in the order that you wrote it so as to same me time.......but I want you to understand something........

It is your "mindset" and your "heart-set".......

Both of those things need to be set on "Love". The actions you take may not "feel" like you are loving her but they are neccessary because you do "LOVE" her.

Do not confuse that with doing or saying things in order to gain her love back either.

Remember......your love is unconditional.......You LOVE her even when she is not LOVING you back.....sometimes she may be hating you back but you still love her in the face of that anger she spews.

Now, she is not playing a game.....she is not thinking about anything beyond five minutes of the feeling that is driving the thought.

Remember MLC=Confusion (I do recomend that you still read in the MLC forum, although it might not get as much traffic it will give you a better understanding of MLC.)

I know you only used the word "game" as a metaphor but please understand that there is no "plan" on her part......she is living in the moment and also their memory is terrible, literally.



Correct, it is wrong to look and analyze.

No matter the sitch WAW/MLC or whatever......do not look for results from your changes or actions immediately......stretch out your timeline.....

hours to days.......
days to weeks.......
weeks to months......
and yes, months to years.

MWD hits the nail on the head....been married or together 10 years it will take at least 10 months before things get better.......probably much longer with MLC.



This I covered up there about your actions are born out of Love.

You can not do this with a "screw it" attitude. So again you are correct.

Now that being said, you do have to have an attitude of.....

NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS YOU WILL BE OKAY, YOU WILL PROSPER, YOU WILL BE HAPPY!!!!!!

Sometimes that may come across as a "screw it" attitude which you do not want to project.

Yes, in DBing we do want the WAS/MLCer to take notice of what you are doing.......and that thing we want them to notice is you living YOUR life, YOU being happy with YOU and the fact that you are Moving Forward, not Moving ON.

There is much debate about Moving Forward/On......the important thing is that you are MOVING..........the thing that will get you stuck and keep you from moving is looking at your W and trying to figure out why she is doing/saying the things she does.



Look, I get this and I feel/felt the same way about my XW. I will love her until the day I die, and that is a "pit in my stomach thing".

Let this drive you to "do what you need to do" not what you "feel" you need to do. (read Sandi's signature)



David,
We all come here hoping to save our marriage......the thing about hope is that it is yours to have.

I would direct you to

Corinthians 13:1-13......Love always hopes.......

While reality may be cold and harsh never let anyone diminish your hope.....



That up there in bold is something you hope that she sees but you can not force her to see it.

There are many different views on kids and the exact thing you are talking about. This is where you need to be strong and explain to your daughter that her Mom loves her and she needs to spend time with her.

I will tell you from personal experience that if there is a rift between your W and your children it can make the situation much more difficult.

I will try to post more later.

Hope this helps.

Cheers