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UPDATE...

W texted me at around 5:30 p.m.

W: "My water was shut off today. Old tenants left balance of $600. May be off for 24+ hours. Thought you'd get a good laugh about the b.s. at my place!"

I waited 30 minutes and then replied.

Me: "Ugh! That s@cks. I'm sure that things will settle down once the kinks get worked out."

W (immediate reply): "I hope! So annoying!"

I did not reply to her last text.

BITS
Denver

CS wrote a great post.

To me, it varies a bit from Mach and MHL's.

I THINK the M's are pushing you away from contact with w in order for YOU to finally detach. This frightens you b/c you fear it means you'll have gone past the point of no return. I beg to differ.

If nothing else gets learned here, remember that LOVE is at least in part, A CHOICE...

and we can choose to let ourselves love someone fully again. Where the head goes, the heart (eventually) follows.

If someone is bad for us, eventually a healthy person lets THAT Sink in and gets over the person. They begin with detachment.

But that doesn't have to lead to divorce or zero love forever.

On the contrary, real detachment allows us to love in a healthier way. Not so needy or clingy, and with LESS conflict...

To me ( & sorry if I got this wrong guys),

Mach/MHL are saying that you cannot detach if you have ANY contact with your w -- even when it's NOT R talk and even when it's Not a "conflict ridden zone" talk...??

I hope they are wrong. But I am not sure if they are. So,

Is it true that you cannot handle even that type of contact (i.e., No r and no conflict talk, but pleasant, genuine conversations) from your w--

Is it true that You only want ONE TYPE of contact from her and that is full 100% committment to the m,

which will happen somehow, w/o ANY communications between you two...

if lightning strikes her and she comes out of the fog to choose you and only you

even though YOU won't be demonstrating the new Denver to her b/c You'll be all silent...???

B/C if it is....then I think your chances of reconciling are pretty slim.

MHL/MACh, am I misinterpreting your posts?

Are you suggesting that Denver has nothing left to demonstrate to his w?

I am not arguing the point so much as asking.

He's already demonstrated this, and more importantly his wife has already told him this -- that this is the "pressure" she feels when they have their convos.

Denver is wasting valuable time, in my opinion, ANALYZING all of the "why's" of this. If he continues to insist on operating on his FEELINGS, instead of on a PLAN, he will continue to push his wife away and not give her a chance to miss him and therefore change his mind.


Starsky

25

I think we are all on the same page with what WE see with Denver.

People 'hear' things the way they hear things, in the time frame they hear them....

We all just have varying differences in how we explain it. And with all the traffic on his threads, combined with Denver being a people pleaser, he tries to apply everything, everyone posts to him. Hoping that one will be that magic bullet that "fixes" his marriage. I don't blame Denver for that, or anyone here. It is just the way it is.

I cannot speak for MHL, Starsky, or anyone else trying to say the same things ( from the way I interpret things).

But for me, the contact that Denver does have , sends him spinning toward his wife, and pulls him into that tornado. It is always calmer in the eye of the storm , and that is the place that we ALL want to see Denver. In that spot where he can see everything clearly without getting any collateral damage because of it.

Time and time again, he has shown that the contact affects him greatly.

It is like a stare-down of two playground bullies , and one jumps when the other one blinks.

The only way to change that dynamic is to change the events that lead to that dynamic. And the major event that causes that....is contact with her.

Denver has fears that are causing him to seek that contact, and until he addresses those fears ( and not just the fear, but the root of those fears ) , he will always allow himself to be defined by the outcome of his marriage.

There is also a misnomer that things have to be one way or another for him right now. It is not that he either has to be married or he has to be divorced. She asked him for space and time to figure things out. That does NOT mean that procedings have to be started.

This should be Denver's time to figure things out as well, and the contact does not allow him to do that with a clear head.

I would imagine that Denver's emotional tank is pretty well empty right now. And HE needs to recharge that.


The contact that he has right now, are just words....there are no actions to back anything up. And those empty words ( from both of them ) are causing him to stay right where she left him.

IF...Denver was in a place, where the contact did not affect him, then I would encourage it more. But he isn't.

This is being played as if it were only Denver's wifes choice. As if she held all of the cards. And the truth is ??

He has a choice in this too.....

He has a choice to take this time for himself...to heal , and to grow....

To figure out who he is....

And if he can do that, THAT is the best chance of having a new relationship with his current spouse....



As far as Denver having anything left to show his wife ?

I think he has a lot to offer her.

Although I do believe that his fear is driving his actions toward her.

As people, we develop fears. That is normal behavior in us.

Recognizing those fears and dealing with them in a healthy manner is what seperates most of us.

Letting those fears take us over is where the line is drawn most of the time.

Those fears become thoughts

Thoughts become words

Words become actions..

And before we realize it....those actions steer us toward the things we fear the most...

Essentially, we let those fears become goals, that we work toward....


I.E.-----Denver is so afraid of becoming the "old Denver" ...that he is pushing the "new Denver" so hard against his wife, that the "old" is coming through in his actions. In the form of controlling behavior.






That is the direction I am going........

And I am done talking about Denver like he isn't here...

: )

Hey 25,

I do not think you are misinterpreting my posts at all, I think that the approach of re-establishing the friendship through casual contact and interactions is sound advice and I trully believe in it.

I believe it can work as outlined by MWD in DR and DB.

However, when there is an affair present in the situation none of those things can start until all contact between the affair partners has ceased. NO EXCEPTIONS.

In Denver's case it is particularly "abusive" for his W to continue to contact the OM, especially while on vacation with Denver and the kids.

It is no different than Denver continuing to behave as he had in the past. I understand the conudrum here.......how is she to believe or even see his changes if there is no interaction between the two of them?

I personaly do not think it is healthy to tolerate nor expect Denver "BE" the "New Denver" while his W is still in contact with the OM.

There has got to be a give and take on both sides........he is willing to forgive the affair to work on the M and she has to be "willing" to end all contact with OM to work on the marriage.

Please don't mistake my tone, it is firm but it is still full of love. This is no different than a LOVE that a parent has for a child, the parent must establish structure and boundaries in their kid's lives.

I agree that without any contact, the chances of reconciliation are slim.

I also think that as long as there is contact with the affair partner there are absolutely zero chances of reconciliation.

Denver and Denver's W have to stop hurting each other.

Denver is coming to realize how his behavior in the past hurt his W and further more he is coming to realize how to better deal with his W and hopefully everyone when he is hurt by their words or actions............

it is called "not being ruled by your emotions"........a hard lesson that I had to learn also at the ripe old age of 43.

I also think that part of that learning is removing yourself from those situations that cause us pain..........contact with Denver's W causes him pain.

Why does it cause him pain???????

He loves his W......

and She is contemplating divorce and is still in contact with the OM.

I think that the time apart, the time without contact, will give them both an opportunity to work on themselves.

Denver's W may like the freedom she has choosen despite the change in lifestyle and may indeed follow through with Divorce. I don't think Denver has given her the opportunity to "feel" that freedom, he needs to open the cage door and walk away.

He does not need to hear about her woes......he will be tempted to run to her aide.........men are "hardwired" to do this. It hurts him to know that she is in "need".

She never complained about the security he provided and she still wants that......who would not???

Maybe she needs to get to a place where she can sustain herself on her own......maybe she needs to do that so that she can make a decision that will not be impacted by her security needs. That way she can really test the waters with Denver and if his changes aren't real then she can safely walk away.

Denver needs to let her figure her sh!t out on her own........

If Denver is honest with her and tells her WHY he is doing what he is doing then I don't think that "Won't be not demonstrating his changes" on the contrary I think that the communication in and of itself will be demonstrating a change.

I think the other thing that needs to be made clear is that there is a difference between "committing to working on the marriage" and "committing to the marriage."

I think that Denver needs to make it more clear that he is not asking his W to re-committ to the marriage....(I think that is what she is hearing)

Denver needs to be clear with her that he would like to "work" on the marriage and that if she would like to do that also then there needs to be a committment to the "process" in order for that to happen.

I am kind of rambling, I apologize. I am trying to respond to several things in your post 25, whilst working constantly being interupted by work .

Wow... great posts 25, Mach, and MHL...

Even though talking as if I weren't in the room! LOL!

Unfortunately for me, you are all correct. I'm really to the point where i don't know that there is one 'right' answer to how I should proceed.

I'm still contemplating going to zero contact with W... in which case I would tell her what MHL has suggested that I tell her.

However, I also very much agree with what 25 said... that the chances of reconciliation are pretty slim if there is no contact between us. Can I handle casual contact with W as you asked 25? Starsky, MHL and Mach are all correct that I have demonstrated time and again that it does draw me back in pretty easily. I do think that my mental attitude is quite a bit different now than it has been in the past several months. Mostly, that I feel that I am DONE letting my W use my past behaviors in our M to continue to justify her choices now. I feel that I am DONE trying to convince her to forgive me. And finally, I am DONE trying to convince her that I have changed and that we can have a great M. I feel that I have suffered enough for my sins in our M. I feel that my W has had plenty of opportunity to see that I do understand what I didn't understand during our M and that I have changed. It is up to her to forgive me and see that she and I can have a bright future together.

HOWEVER, the question remains as to whether or not I can maintain that attitude with casual contact with W.

Regardless of whether or not I talk to her on the phone or text with her now and then... I am dead set on not spending time with her until she commits to working on the M. I will not waver on this.

25 - I agree that W made a mistake by moving SS away from his friends. I also expect that there is going to be a blow up soon.

I will tell you what I am going to do over the next several days... I'm going to go back an reread relevant portions of DR.

MHL - Thanks for pointing out the difference bw committing to the M and committing to WORKING on the M. Seeing that difference, which I do now, may be useful to me in the future.

------

Brief UPDATE...

W texted me again last night at around 11 p.m. Seemed to be a continuation of the text messages that she sent me earlier in the day.

W: "And the house smells on J's side of the house and kitchen. We are worried there's a dead animal under that side of the house. Don't see anything inside."

Me: "I hope that your landlord is taking care of this stuff for you guys. That is ridiculous."

W: "I know. So frustrating!"

I did not respond to her last text.

Sounds like W moved into a great place (sarcasm)!


Denver