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Just to touch on conflict and anger a bit more:

Both my W and I "say" things like, "Don't sweat the small stuff." and "Choose your battles."

The "Choose your battles." came up in counseling as something one might say to a child. The MC agreed when my W suggested that, during a session.

Personally, I believe that mantra, whether for children or ANY conflict.

I generally let things roll off my back. Most things don't stick. When they do stick, it is usually when the conflict escalates and becomes more an argument over who's "right" or "wrong".

I generally do not feel I need to be RIGHT. Although when I feel I am being made to be WRONG, that is when I dig in. I prefer to use the phrase "Agree to disagree." It makes no one "wrong". It invalidates no one. I have issues with feeling I'm being invalidated, even when that may not be the intention.

I need to recognize that in myself when it starts to come up and allow myself to recognize that the opposer may not be trying to make me wrong. Rather, they are simply stating a different point of view which does not invalidate my view.

That's such a good thing to note and a hard thing to do, huh? I'm still struggling with how to balance my H's truth about a situation with my truth, especially when we don't see even close to eye to eye right now.

I'm looking forward to hearing how you do with this.

LOVE ILLUSION #2

"You're more likely to divorce if there are differences in your backgrounds, likes and dislikes and interests."

+ How often have you heard this?

- This is actually the first time I've heard this. Although I read DB and DR so I'm guessing I should have read this before.

Perhaps I've heard it in different ways.

Personally, I do not believe that our differences should be the reason for a D. Our differences can become annoying perhaps, but they should also be cherished with bringing vitality into the union.

My W has suggested that because we were brought up differently (our parents had different beliefs and methods for raising us), somehow those differences are a primary source for our incompatibility that we simply ignored when we initially got married.

+ What are the differences between you and your H?

My W is career oriented, I am self employed oriented.

I like camping, my W likes "hotel'ing" (a running joke that she started, indicating that any camping trip must include a room or at least RV, and absolutely should have a shower).

I like seafood, my W does not.

I like Apple Crisp, my W likes Apple Betty.

My W likes the East Coast, I do not.

My W likes cool environment, I like warm environment.

Many more differences... IMO, minor. Except for work. I will not elaborate here as this may come up later. Otherwise I will elaborate on this, later.

+ How has your bias with the differences affected your marriage?

- OK. As I stated above, as far as I know, none of our differences has been the cause of any major conflict between myself and my W, except work.

There are MAJOR conflict in that regard, as my W has long wanted me to "get a real job" (with conditions). I like my self employed because of the benefits.

My bias is, a "real job" removes me from being available to my family. A real job has limits to potential earnings (ie. you get paid for the hours you work, generally). A real job means evening and weekend work may be required. A real job is often menial (ie. Difficult to find satisfaction.)

I admit that those things can be over come. It is just that I have not yet found a job that fulfills those things I would like, or if they do, I have not been invited to interview for it.

+ How has your spouses' bias with the differences affected your marriage?

Unless I am completely wrong, most of our differences are not a major issue with my W. Although there are certain differences that my W finds stressful (such as my casualness about time) or activities that might be high risk (like climbing towers; a prior job duty).

Again, the major difference, the job, appears to be the most important issue for my W.

My W will indicate that the things I believe are great from a self employed perspective, I am not showing for the family. Such as, I do not make a lot of money, I work evenings and weekends. Those I believe are the only two. No security might be a third (ie. insurance, holiday pay, etc).

I feel that I am available when I am asked to be available for events and outings. I am also available for the kids when my W is at work. But when my W comes home, yes. I do got out to work because my familial obligations are handed off to my W and I can go earn some money.

I certainly understand how my W may feel that I do not want to be around her. That was so not the truth. But when she came home and complained that bills needed to be paid, then money became my primary focus, at the expense of time with family.

+ What are your feelings about the following statement:

"Research shows that people who stay together and are happily married are no more similar than those who divorce?"

- I find that a difficult statement to read.

I read that to mean that people who get divorced are no more or less happy than people who stay together.

Perhaps my interpretation is incorrect, but if it is, I have heard that statement in many different ways.

IOW, people who stay married still have conflict.

The difference between people who stay married and those who get divorced, is the people who stay married are still married.

The difference is, the people who stay married choose not to use conflict or differences as a reason for divorce because somehow the conflict or differences are unresolvable or insurmountable.

People who remain married either work through conflict or differences or they overlook them in a healthy way.

Great notice, girl!

It's a bit of a revelation for me, as it came out this way. Although it is something I've recognized in myself in other ways or forms.

How to do this successfully? Practice, practice, practice.

First, practice noticing this in yourself, in the moment.

The more we practice this, the quicker we are to be able to deal with it when it comes up.

Once we notice it in ourselves, we can course correct. IOW, rather than joining the "right / wrong" conversation, we listen. We accept what we are hearing is someone's opinion. Simple information. That is likely not intended to invalidate us or make us wrong. And then we can simply respond with "OK".

I've heard that simple response ("OK") can end an argument faster than an argument can start up.

Of course, if it is obvious that someone IS trying to make us wrong or invalidate us, we need to look inside us and understand that we are coming from a place of honesty and humility (we SHOULD be coming from that place, anyhow) and accept that the other person is (possibly) stuck somewhere (unwilling to accept our opinion as AN option; although that is not important) and that is their choice and we do not need to own that.

Turn the other cheek or walk away. We have spoken our opinion. It is not for us to force our opinion on anyone else. If they choose to disagree with our opinion, however they may choose to do so, that is up to them and we have to accept that, rather than trying to be "right".

Your are soooo correct, though. Not the easiest thing in the world to do.

With practice, everything becomes easier.

OK, I think I can re-state a couple things from LOVE ILLUSION #2:

I indicated the following:



The "with conditions" are things like:

+ should work "normal hours" (ie. traditional, like 9-5)
+ should work no weekends
+ should be paid a "reasonable" wage

++ forgive me for saying this, but my wife would likely indicate I should be paid no less that $25 per hour to do the work that I have the most experience for. In reality, the technology industry which is my primary skill set, generally pays starting wages of approximately $10 to $12 per hour. When the cost of fuel is put into the equation and the cost to commute (we live "in the sticks") so it's no less than two hours on the road, every day, it's not "worth" the effort. (her words, when I had jobs like that)

+ I should get reasonable benefits
+ I should get reasonable vacation time

These are not necessarily things that I'm pulling out of a hat or using to be sarcastic. These truly have been some of the things that have come up with my W when we have conversations about me getting a job.

I will be practicing being "employable" because at this point in my life, it is something that I am inclined to follow. I am done with "high risk" for now. Truth is, I have not been successful in "job" searches in the past, if the above conditions are to be a measurement of "success". My W OTOH, has gone to college, obtained a decent job from day one, and has climbed the career ladder quite successfully.

I feel she is using herself as the benchmark and 20 years into a career, it is hard to suddenly live up to her "success".

My W often will indicate that she has lived under the shadow of "should have been an A." For those who have never heard this, it comes from her parents seeing her report card, knowing how much she "sloughed off", and telling her she should have got an "A", if she would have just applied herself. I find myself living under the shadow of "should have been an A.".

Maybe I can find a way to make it an "A"... eventually and with practice...

The above are "excuses" or "reasons". In reality, I will start where I start and I will get to where I get. Eventually, I may have the above. Certainly it could happen.

That being the case, and while I resisted a "real job" for a long time because I did not feel that it was necessary in our household, that resistance was certainly a major nail in the coffin. That's unfortunate. By my measure of success, we were doing OK, things were getting better. Live and learn. Life is a harsh teacher, when necessary.


On the following, I think I understand the statement better, now:



People who stay together and are happily married are not similar.

In the same way that people who are divorced are not similar.

OK, in that regard, I can see that being true.

Since people who are happily married are equally dissimilar, then it is NOT the differences that cause divorce. Rather, it is people who choose to use their difference as reasons to get divorces, who move in that direction.

OK, since I'm at this point right now, I'm gonna put something out there... I feel it's ugly and messy and it's probably going to come out all over the map, but it's pertinent and in keeping with the current "Love Illusion #2" piece...

And while I can sit here and say that Infidelity is a deal breaker for me, and I believed it was, although I've learned it may not be, this one's a deeper seeded deal breaker for me and it may or may not be the final coffin in the nail, for me...

I hate to say it because I hold myself in HUGE judgment over it and I feel that others will do the same.

I do not really understand right now where this stems from, but I have FOREVER felt that I WOULD NEVER marry someone who was money focused... who married for money...

And from the moment that I met my W, she even called herself a princess and behaved in ways that suggested she was money focused, and her family was money focused, and many people (friends) told me she was money hungry...

I have always presented (money) successful. Not because I was pretending to be rich, but because I enjoy the good things in life, when I can. Being brought up the way I was, the way my frugal grandparents were, the lifestyle that the family business was able to provide, in "good years", when I was earning good money... I liked living the good life, because one never knew if or when the good life might end...

I have and always wear my (modest) gold. I drove an expensive convertible for a while, my parents live in an expensive home on water front (the result of selling the family business; all that is of their earnings, their "retirement funds" as it were)...

I grew up and went through school as though I was some spoiled brat. I had a new vehicle when I turned 16, the result of earnings from the family business. The ONLY way I was ever paid for the work that I did at the business, from the time that I was eight years old until the business was sold in '97... I had a couple "toys" as a result of the business as well, but otherwise, never had a red cent in my bank account... the life of the business... feast and famine...

Anyhow, I had avowed that I would NEVER marry someone who would marry for money, rather than love... and as I fell in love, and overlooked the money focus of my wife, and accepted that she would be the primary wage earner as I stayed at the home, did my little side jobs for extra cash, and raised the kids... love... that was what it was all about... and TOGETHER, we would make differences in our lives, begin to earn more money, and share that financial freedom within our family unit, using it for the four of us to enjoy some of the finer things in life, as we could...

and as time went on, and my W continued to berate me for bringing in more money, and my grandparents passed on and there was "little" inheritance, etc, etc... it's become more and more apparent that my W was more concerned with her bank account, than with the happiness of the family unit... togetherness, connectedness, family love...

And when my W said to me, that third MC session, on the way in to the session, that "Love... is not enough..." well....

That just hurt...

So of all the emotion i go through, feeling abandoned by my W, rejected by my W, failing my kids, and everything else... I sit here now, having dealt with a lot of my emotion and I think to myself...

Do I REALLY want to reconcile with this woman who appears to not hold Love to the place I believe it should sit in a family?

Be with a woman who appears to me to be hypocritical, as she places placards and paintings with the word LOVE on them, around the family home... the "Live, Love, Laugh" sayings that are oh so common... because... well, because other people might visit the home and what should we be presenting to them...

And I get... there is some primary need for a man to be the bread winner, for a woman to be financially provided for... and I think... am I truly such an A-whole who would with hold that from his W, just to prove a point...? When maybe... just maybe... if I really applied myself and worked at it, I could provide a significant six figure income to the family home...

And here I sit, as though I am somehow above all that, willing to walk away from the M. Accept a D. Leave with the pittance I came into the M with, my clothes... the little dignity I have left... and hopefully maintain an acceptable relationship with my daughters... because I want to prove a point... that money is not the root of happiness... that it is LOVE that is most important, above all else...

But... I don't have to be right... but I am too proud to go out there, right now, and get a job... make a living, start becoming the bread winner in this new life before me... because I do not want my W to suddenly see me making money and then coming to me saying she is willing to work it out... because I DO NOT want to be right... that it is all about the money... I DO NOT want her back, if a job will make the difference for her to change her mind...

so I wait... I wait for the D... and hope, beyond hope that the woman I married, the woman with a huge heart, who bore the my children, who appears to care so much for the needy... that she will see her way clear, that love is just as important to her, as it is to me...

and that... my friends... is that....

ouch...

That's what's called competing commitments... this one's harsh...

Money / Love (Marriage)...

Need to work through that one, big time...

I think I can relate to this a little bit.. would it be fair to say that your W's family lives an aspirational lifestyle? Lot of focus on $$ and brand names? is it really just about the $$ or is there something underneath that idea that is motivating her so strongly? Is her sense of self-worth closely linked to a number?

Is there something about your attitude regarding work or money that is contributing to her feeling that you need to make more? Is she drawing the wrong conclusion from your behavior?

Can you empathize with her mindset? I can't - my answer when someone asks me how much I'd like to make is, "enough."




Have you ever tried any of the tests like RIASEC? Its fun to highlight your strengths, and It might give you some ideas that you haven't really considered, for things that might actually be interesting for you and possibly even gratifying.

What happens when you think of working a 'job'? Does your pulse race? Do you get bothered just thinking about it? Do you have some fears associated with it (like, having your life consumed by work..)?

LOVE ILLUSION #3

"In healthy relationships major disagreements get resolved over time."

+ What have been the major disagreements between you and your spouse?

- As above, money... or a job for me. Other might include time spent together (my request, of just my W and me) and time spent as a family, just the four of us. Very often there is more than the four of us tagging along for some reason.

Also, cleanliness, such as a made bed in the morning, I have a lot of lose "junk" in a spare bedroom and in the basement and in the garage. I keep stuff with no place to store it in a way that is out of sight. My W calls me a hoarder. I find my W wasteful, generally with throwing out things she doesn't think is necessary, including leftover food. Or often my "junk".

Timeliness. My W does not like my casualness with time. Sees it as disrespectful.

Truly... There are not a lot of things that I disagree with my W, although I always hoped she would do less traveling for work and spend more time with just the four of us, as a family. I have never complained about that though, as she was making money. I did have a problem with all the social activities she would participate in while traveling for work, though. Social time with work associates. Had I known at the time that my W would strike up an EA with one of her co-workers, I might have had more issues with her time away, though.

I suppose trust and honesty were high on the list, though. Not sure if that would be considered a disagreement, but they were part of the conflict. My W complained that she didn't trust me or did not believe I was being honest, and this often revolved around my work or around money. In hindsight, mentioning that now, I wonder how much I was her mirror on that... Did she feel I was being dishonest or untrustworthy around work and money because she was feeling dishonest and untrustworthy around work and money?

But that's just guessing on how she felt or what she was thinking. Not important to help me become a better man.

And I just about forgot a big one, which is the upbringing of the kids. Discipline and that sort of thing. Treating one kid better than the other. I think the balance is there, and they are treated differently because they are different and they are also treated according to their age.

+ What have been your hopes about the resolution of this disagreement?

- Hopes about the resolution. I guess that's where it begins, about five years ago for me. That's when I "gave up" and stopped hoping for a resolution to some of the disagreements.

Certainly before and now, I still hope that we can sit down and talk about these things. If nothing else, at least put this stuff on the table and be willing and able to talk about them. Acknowledge them. They don't need to be solved or fix immediately. But at least if they are out there, we can work on changing our behaviours or at least reducing the negative behaviours and doing what we can to help support each other's needs.

+ What have you 'heard' about your spouse's opinion on this issue?

- Not entirely sure I understand the question. I don't believe I've heard anything about my spouses opinion on the disagreements. Other than from my spouse, telling me I should get a job, that I should clean up my mess, that I should be more respectful of time and deadlines, that my W does not trust me and believes I am dishonest...

Rarely have I ever had feedback from someone other than my spouse, regarding these disagreements.

+ What do you think is underlying your spouse's opinion on this issue?

- wow... tough question. As far as the money / job thing, I would say that my W's opinion is based on her families corporate commitment, if you will. That people get education and go to work, make an appropriate earning and move up the ranks. As far as possible emotional reasons, I would suspect that the underlying reason might simply be a need for security, which is seen as being in the form of money, or secure investment.

Cleanliness and timeliness, I'm thinking might have respect as the underlying reason. Respect of property, respect of other's commitments...

The trust and honesty? I know that my W has a jealous nature. I know that she was unhappy with any time I spent with female friends, even though it was rarely social (and those times she was certainly invited to join; such as a Halloween party) but actually business. Beyond that, I have no idea what the underlying issue might be on honesty and trust. Although I do know she would ask me to do something and if I had not done it and she asked me again, I would say I did it (so I would not get yelled at) and then use that as a reminder to do it. More and more often, she would check before "reminding me", so she would catch me in a lie. I am not defending it or making light of it. A lie is a lie. By the time I was more comfortable about being caught in a lie regarding things like cleaning the cat litter, I had already "given up" on having my needs met in the R, so I suppose I did not care if I was meeting my W's needs any more.

Regarding the kids, my oldest daughter is from a previous relationship. I know there was a strong co-dependent bond between my W and my daughter, because of the environment. It has been difficult to integrate into their relationship and it will likely always be unique and exclusive. My W is generally very protective of that child, specifically. Not just in relation to me.

+ What do you think your spouse hopes you will understand about him/her on this issue?

- I would suspect that my W would hope I understand that she holds some strong values and that she would hope I would respect her needs and be more mindful of meeting her needs.

+ What are your feelings about the following statement:

"Research tells us that approximately 60 percent of what couples argue about is unresolveable"

- I find that interesting. I would think that everything could be resolved in some way or another. In another life I might have disputed that, but I will accept that information.

+ Does the following surprise you:

"If you eavesdrop on couples' arguments as newlyweds and then again after they've been married for 25 years or more, you might be surprised to find that much of the content is the same. However, the way in which people discuss these heated issues does change over time. We tend to mellow a bit, which makes a huge difference in how our partners react to us and vice versa."

- Actually, that would not surprise me much, at all. I can imagine that a spouse can complain about their spouses cleanliness, or how many of some item a spouse needs, or money... always money... for an entire life time. People have a tendency to stay in their behaviours so the problems are likely to remain in some, subtle way.

+ If you've been in the relationship for a long time (8+ years)...are you mellowing? What about 25+ years...are you mellowing?

- I have never thought about that. I actually don't know if I've mellowed much. I've generally not been hugely reactive. I might almost say that in some ways, I've become more reactive as opposed to mellowing. As much as I feel I gave up, it seems the little things that haven't been resolved are creeping up and becoming big, ugly monsters... Then again, for the most part, I don't much care that people don't put their dishes away, any more. I just put them away...

hey chaos, thanks for chiming in...

BTW, I took that RIASEC and found out I am best suited to be a belly dancing, whale watcher! That's AWESOME! Just can't seem to find the training to get certified... lol!

jk of course, there was some good insight into possible career ops. Thanks!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding the bit about my W and money...

My W's grandmother was an accountant for a large firm, her husband (second, not bio father of MIL) was an ex forces pilot turned lawyer turned entrepreneur. MIL was a sales exec at a retail chain (turned entrepreneur and then back to sales) and FIL was a booze rep (turned entrepreneur, now handyman).

W had quite an affluent upbringing. Family home was site of gatherings every weekend (lots of booze in the garage) and had an in ground pool back in the day, that meant you had arrived.

Brand was very important to them at the time. Likely still is, although W is more likely to grab brands at second hand, although no longer good enough for D13.

I wish I could say that there is something underlying the money. Perhaps it's a sense of security. Although W does put a good chunk of earnings into long term, the months tend to have more days, than pay... She was constantly borrowing money from her friends for things. That was normal for her and her friends, amongst themselves. She would not normally ask me, although I'm sure she assumed I would say no, or that I had no money to offer.

I could say that my W does try to live the "keep up with the joneses" life, although we've not had enough marriage nor career to compete with some of her more affluent friends. Still, she tries... as with the current RV purchase a couple years ago.

My life has always been "feast / famine" around money. Likely my upbringing. So I like to be more careful about where money goes. Money in hand is dangerous and will be spent, but there is also a well developed self control when it comes to spending money. I can have a few hundred bucks in my pocket and window shop and come home having spent no money, except that for gas.

I do not know if she is drawing any wrong conclusions about my behaviour around work or money. Although I am not sure if she is drawing ANY conclusions, other than I needed to contribute more money to the household, and the only way that was likely to happen was for me to leave my consulting business and get hired on with a big company. I suspect she saw my skills as being more valuable than my job hunting experience showed the local market would bear.

One particular job which had the potential to provide a significant annual earnings, did not turn out well. The work was way ahead of the sales payout curve and it ended up with me leaving. That was actually requested by my W. She later indicated that particular job was a HUGE let down, as it was the one she had the most belief in, that would finally "pay out" (my words, but they're paraphrasing my W's words)...

Can I empathize with her mindset...? I don't know. I struggle with that. The reason why I struggle is, while I truly believe money does not buy happiness, I am well aware that money helps pay for things while one is out being happy. Or put another way, I can ask people to donate food or money to help feed 1000 hungry children, or I can make enough money to feed 1000 hungry children. Yes, there are many intellectual arguments in that. The point is, if one can provide enough value to earn a significant enough amount of money to live comfortably, with a certain level of "luxury" or "fun money", all excess can go towards contribution. Over and above what one will contribute with their own hands, directly on project.

So I can empathize, in the right context.