Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Piecing Our Marriage Back Together Again Words get in the way

Most people who have affairs say they weren't looking for them, it just happened. Partly, that's just victim-talk (I'm not responsible, because a ton of bricks suddenly fell on me). Partly, they're trying to convey that they didn't realize that some of their needs weren't being met, so when they encountered a person as needy and confused as they were--bam, conflagration.

What made your H feel that you were miserable in the marriage? It must have been very hard on him to feel that he could not make you happy. What changes have you made to prevent those feelings from occurring again?

It's good that you now recognize that parents cannot put their children before their relationship in marriage. How would you change this dynamic if you get another chance?

During their fog, those in MLC tell themselves that their children wouldn't be harmed by divorce. They convince themselves of this to alleviate their guilt, and because their internal self-loathing makes it hard to see anything from another's perspective. Once he came out of the fog, my H once again became strongly convinced of the scarring nature of divorce upon children.

Most WASs believe this. They assume since kids don't all kill themselves, they must be "okay"...as if merely surviving is good enough. My h was the product of divorce as were both his parents (yes I know the stats are pretty bad. But turns out we've been m longer than any other couple in our family now. The DBers know it wasn't easy but yes, it's worth it).

Anyhow, My DB coach gave me some great advice. Here's some of it.
"Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives" we see, and that can be very hard to do (like Mother Teresa hard). But dang if it didn't help. When I read "The Five Love Languages" it hit me that h's love language is affection and words of affirmation, big time.

She also said to lose the anger, at least in front of h. That is key. No one misses being with an angry person, and that has nothing to do with OW. Plus, being calm and letting go of your anger is way better for your d.

Also, it's crucial to ask yourself this: If your h believes you will never forgive him, why should he bother trying? And If you won't ever forgive him, why would YOU want to keep trying?

He has to believe it's possible for you to forgive so when you get a chance to show you are not miserable or hurt, show it. Give him a glimpse of what life with you could be like without your pain, or his guilt/pain.

Here's an example from our history, fwiw.

My h was about to move away to the tundra/adventure, which obviously angered and terrified me. But he had a conference in Palm Springs first, and we could all attend and have some fun there. For obvious reasons, this was weird/fake to me, and I thought "why should we act happy when h is hurting us so much? Why allow him to lie to himself? Why protect HIM from the pain he is causing us?" This was flawed reasoning and here's why...
First, who wants to be around miserable people? Seriously...

And Ultimately I decided to go with h, b/c I thought it might be the last time my d's and I would have a "vacation" with h, and that it could be a good memory for all of us, instead of a nightmare or fight scene.

For the 4 days, I chose to simply shelve the issues, and any and all negatives I felt for h at that time, I was able to put aside. I guess since I knew it was temporary, I could do it. Like I knew I could "be mad again later", so it was more or less do-able.

So for those 4 days, I looked at h with neutrals and positives, letting go of any and all annoying things, not to mention the big fat ones. I laughed at his jokes and ignored the down sides, and oddly, after 2 days, I actually liked him more. And he responded really well to it. And the kids and I had fun. I could see the older d breathe sighs of relief at the time. So We went on some tours, rode horses, and had a ball. IT was among the best 4 days we had had in a long time... like the first good smooth time in a long while.

Then I realized, "wow, is this what forgiveness could look like?...Instead of obsessing about the past, & my 'grievance list of wrongs h did to me', what if I just chose to move on, 'from this day forward'..." and I think HE got a glimpse of what life could be like if we healed. And that has so much value.

I don't believe in the R talks unless they initiate them OR unless they are asking something of you. Meaning, if he says "let's move to another city" or make some big change, you are entitled to explanations and reassurances about the R so you don't risk losing something valuable for a whim.

But to drag it up when times are good or you are trying to just tread water and not drown, seems like sabotaging your recovery. And his.

IMO, unless he's asking for something, back off and let him work this out.

Plus, about 18 years ago I had an EA (didn't see it that way at the time, but regardless...).

Our m was for the first time, getting really hard. We'd been m 9-10 years then. I did not tell my h about it but I worked it out with a great shrink, and a minister and some changes I made in my life that helped me feel the passion I had missed (I ended up joining a theater group which actually made a huge difference in my life).

Point is, if my h had found out and tried to shame me, or expose me, I would have left him. Why? B/c I felt at the time, justified. I felt that my h was neglecting me -actually he was an intern MD and frankly, he WAS neglecting me/us. He was working his butt off and was never home, and when he was home he was falling asleep on the floor, after first being REALLY irritable for 15-20 minutes, and then passing out. Super fun and this was not a short term thing. It was years long. And I had a tough full time job too, and at that time we had 2 small kids. I had joined the military for h, and oh by the way we were at war...So I was very burdened and resentful of his choices having such a huge impact on ME...and then, OM showed up at that time and paid LOTS of attention to me. I barely avoided a PA and only b/c of some divine intervention did I (OM got transferred overseas).

Years later h had his MLC and left us for 2 years, with visits every few weeks. I could have "cut him off" to punish him, but it just seemed like what man would come home to the great sex he never had?

I knew how I had worked out my EA (with help) and felt that h would have to do this without me shaming him and guilting him BUT I admit, at first I did do all the arguing and pleading and I felt a lot of anger that I had given up so much for h, for years, only to be repaid with him leaving again...

Yes I was angry. And my journals reflected that. They do not reflect total reality. I suggest you stop snooping and obsessing about his feelings in the past or what he feels now or will in the future.

YES Love is a choice. It also grows over time and bonding experiences like raising a child together. Our d22 just graduated from college this month and at moments like that, you know why you stayed together and that it was the right thing to do.

Our s24 just called to say he is "in love" with his gf and might marry her. I'm glad my h and I are together to hear these things...

give your h the time he needs and don't ever let him wonder if you love him deeply, again. It's good to feel loved, and yes, it matters.

Thank you Cyrena and 25. I love the way your questions make me think, and how your experiences enlighten and encourage me. I feel more and more like I am not walking alone, you have gone through the same path before me, and my hand is being held by strong, capable ones.

I was miserable in the M between 2-4 years ago. I made sure that H knew abut it – nagged him about his lack of affection, complained, was cold, even told him 4x that I wanted out. Not that I really meant it, it was more of drama for me. He was at that time the one who reminded me of my vows. After fighting, we would get back together, and for me, everything was forgiven, I did not know realize that I had pushed him away. Later I figured that we were at odds because our love languages differed – mine was physical and quality time, his were acts of service and words of affirmation. I accepted things but did not really act on it, but there were less fights and our marriage became peaceful, if a little flat. But otherwise, life was good.

Of course there were other things, but what M doesn’t?

All of the above I have known but now that I feel that the sitch is in a different phase, I am revisiting all my feelings, my realizations and finding that I have a different perspective. It is no longer just finding out why this all happened, but really, really using all this knowledge. I am processing all this information as it relates to me.

At this point, to answer some of your questions:

1. My love for H – just as my H did not know how deeply I loved him, so did I not know. Only when this happened to me did I also see that love is a choice, and that I could learn to love him unconditionally someday. I was selfish myself, and had a lot of anger and frustration in my heart, throughout the years that we were married. My love was based on expectations.

I question the love he has for me but I did not question mine, but now I see that I too, was lacking in many ways. And now I am working on that. That is what I am doing, and I believe that as my heart changes, so does my actions and my priorities. Most important, I am gradually losing my selfishness.

I never understood it before when my H said I was selfish, and so did my D. I always saw myself as a person who was generous, who gave back to my family, my community. Even as a youngster, my fantasies where of being a superhero who helped people in need. I am a doctor, and early in my career, when I still lived in my home country, I did so much charity work. My heart bled for people who suffered, and being an MD was a perfect way to alleviate their pain.

What I never realized was that doing all those wasn’t really a “sacrifice”, wasn’t putting others needs before my own because I was also fulfilling my own needs by being the “hero”, the “rescuer”. That did not really qualify me for being unselfish! For things that was going to cause me pain, I still put myself ahead of others, and that IS selfish.

The same with my H. I was his mentor, he was a resident when I was an attending, I taught him a lot of what he knows. A friend of his once told me I was his hero, his idol. I tried not to overshadow him at home, and let him be the leader of the family, but somehow, my personality always was stronger, my decisions faster (not necessarily better). But the dynamic changed, and he came into his own, successful as well, no longer under my shadow.

I never really bothered to analyze how this changed everything, and intellectually, I was so happy that he was finally was independent of me, and that he was the breadwinner, that I could relax and enjoy the ride and no longer had to be the driver.

But all the years of his being under me – could that have made him feel unimportant? Less than what he was? Did I make him feel less? Those are questions that come into mind with what you have asked me. I know that at times I have – I have shown my impatience when he would ask me questions and I felt that these were things he should have known, I may even have been sarcastic. My tongue could be sharp. I did not praise when I had the chance to. I was like a parent, expecting him to perform well in his career because I knew his potential. I even told him once I would not have married him if I did not believe that he would do well in his chosen field one day. I thought that it did show him that I respected his intellect, but again, showed that my love was conditional!

Nonetheless, I have realized sometime ago that he needs to be appreciated and valued and have been working along those lines some time ago, and I do see him responding to it in a positive way.

I think though I am getting better. My D told me the other day that she did see that I am less selfish now. Not that she could explain why, when I asked her, but kids do have a way of sensing the basics.

TO BE CONTINUED. SORRY FOR THIS BEING SO LONG, I AM JOURNALING WHILE ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS AND PROCESSING MY THOUGHTS AS WELL.

that's a good post with honest reflection. Here's a wrench for your engine...I'm married to an MD and so was a friend of mine. My friend and his wife, the doctor, divorced and he said he'd never marry another MD b/c "Doctors are the working spoiled...there's no way you can outdo the importance of their work, or even compete with it, so of course they would expect to get their way in the M's..."

Just food for thought.

YOU understand! Its the EGO. or rather the Super Ego?

I come from a family of MD's. Mom, Dad, 3 of us siblings, and we all married MD's as well. Although both H and I are not practicing here in the US, we both hold pretty good positions in biotech and are able to apply our knowledge in our chosen specialty (same for both of us, different subspecialties, whch we both obtained through post docs here in the US)

Can you imagine the amount of dysfunction I have to cope with? My D says my whole family is crazy !%@? whaddayaexpect!

And maybe that is why my H thought he was unimportant! When I was younger I was virtually married to my career as well. My mom once told me that he who travels alone goes farthest, instilled independence and self-sufficiency in us girls, and I once even thought that I would be OK being single all my life. That is why when I first experienced marital discord, I wanted to fly away. I was (an still am probably) holding back part of myself, not fully giving, because of this mindset.

Oh gosh, I feel like a teenager having an identity crisis at this point. Having to face myself.

Ok, here's my continuation. After which I will tell you of a slip up that happened to me yesterday and today, and how I plan to handle them, all in the spirit of fixing both myself, and our M.

Part 2:

2. Forgiveness (and Anger)

25, I did see your post to Tad about forgiveness, the concept of “from this day onward”. That was a very inspiring post, and it immediately resonated with me. I also have realized that in the same way as you– when we were on vacation just a month ago, in which I was so hell bent on enjoying that I told myself that I will shut up and not even think of anything negative. I did have a set-back right after Mother’s Day when my anger and suspicion reared its ugly head, but after that, I read an email from Rejoice Ministries devotionals, and they had a very appropriate email about forgiveness, and it suddenly clicked into place. That and your post.

I realized that forgiveness really does mean leaving it all behind. Not bringing up the past. It was a gradual process, I admit, starting with detachment, but true detachment cannot be achieved without forgiveness, and forgiveness cannot be achieved without stepping back to assess and think and rationalize.

I do think that it has sunk in, and I am really and truly letting go of the anger. A few weeks ago, I still had anger inside me, and for months now I have practiced suppressing it.

Truth to tell, my anger and anger management was a big part of what caused our M to go the way it did. My H was afraid of me, as I have a volcanic temper and would blow up.

I am hoping that this change will be something I can maintain, as this is huge.

****************************************

OK, so I just wrote all that part 2 words yesterday, and then I go to be in real life mode and mess up.

Here's what happened:

1. Slip up no. 1 - we were talking in the car about a guy who got fired at work. My H was feeling gossipy, he asked me what happened. I told him no one knew, and everyone was speculating, and that one of the girls at work even thought it might have something to do with his GF. H said how can that be, thats his personal life, and I said that I just went trhough some company training and found out that immoral conduct can also be grounds for dismissal! But in this guys case, he was divorced so it did not matter. Then I went on a little more, and in the back my mind was thinking about how these applied to my H (the OW was an employee of the company he works with at that time), and my brain was telling my mouth to stop! Good thing H did not seem to think, or did not give me an indication that I was saying those things to poke him. The rest of the evening went smoothly, BUT of course I was bothered.

2. Slip up #2: So I felt that I was out of the woods this morning, he made me breakfast as usual. I could not find my cellphone, and went to look for it in his car. A receipt caught my eye - it was a deposit of 3K to a bank I did not know! Without thinking I brought it to him and asked him if he had opened a new account! and remember, my H is really sensitive to my mistrust, (Cyrena knows this). And of course, I have to admit that for a while, my mistrust surfaced, but again, if I had more sense, I would just asked myself if he were hiding something, would he keep the receipt in plain view?

I have promised myself that I was going to trust him with what he does with our finances. I have not seen any evidence so far, in the past year, that he has been irresponsible in this regard. I have access to our joint account, thus could easily protect my own interests if I wanted to.

What I did made him act more distant to me. I can only pray that he will let it go, and at this time value our stability and also see that I am trying. However, I am not going to bring it up as the more I concentrate on it the bigger deal it will seem like - that is how I think about it. Does that seem logical?

angel,

I'm not clear on what you two decided about his EA so maybe your distrust is something he can help with too. But if you are harping on it, then yes, it's your problem so don't make it his.

The anger thing is a real drag. I GET IT. OMG, first off, our spouses may not "deserve" it and we might be "right" to be mad. So we have to ask ourselves how important our anger is. Or being right. IOW, do we want to be "right" or happy? (and married).

I'm a believer, so for me, turning my pain and anger over to God ended up being my only real choice. I had to do it. I could not deal with it myself as I was getting consumed by it, not available for my children b/c I was so irritable and preoccupied.

It was like the saying "refusing to let go of anger b/c you want to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes..."

And my anger was Not good at work, and NOT good with h even "in the moment" of ml...
so the anger was hurting us, our family, but mostly hurting ME. H wasn't even aware of it half the time and when he was, it always hurt our R...you'd think I'd figure this out...but NOPE...not me!

So yeah, the anger just had to go. Same with the start of forgivness. It HAD to begin. If it's not possible to forgive or if the event or A is going to get tossed in someone's face forever, or if it's just under the surface and seething, it will poison the M. It's fatal to a happy m. Really really get that, okay?

And the WAS OFTEN thinks the LBSer won't forgive, (and sometimes we give them reason to suspect that) so they won't want to come back. Why should they?

The new account and $3k is something that would have struck me. But I think I'd be able to ask about it with curiousity I hope, as opposed to suspicion. But that's me now, not me 5 years ago.

If you are protecting yourself financially, or can easily, then yes you know you have to cope better. Come up with some "exercise" or coping tool so you can handle those moments, better. I literally came up with mantras and taped a few of my own discovered gems of wisdom to calm myself down at times. I'd take "fury walks" and go for some distance to get endorphins and CALM down.
I had some books on tape on my Ipod. Also some playlists of optimistic music, some inspirational, etc. Whatever works.

My DB coach was great. Very efficient, btw. I mean it's much faster and more helpful in a specific way that most mc's are. Same price for us as local "Ts were so I'm really grateful I connected with my DB coach so well. I highly recommend them.

She told me to "applaud loudly for the 1% of positives the h's do"...well, that can be VERY hard, like Mother Teresa Hard...but dang if it doesn't work.

Also to lose the anger, at least in front of h. Also to keep the road home paved and smooth.

As for being bored when you are in a long car drive, join the club! You need to re-read some of the DB stuff of MWD on this site. Sometimes WE are boring, sometimes life is, sometimes they are.

No one is endlessly entertaining. Doing Diapers, dishes, paying bills, reading the paper and watching the news and talking to young children is NOT ALWAYS interesting...good grief.

We have to accept that. Life is not like in the movies. Who'd pay to see that?

Her piece on this is pretty good. I just re-read it so I know.

I'll post more later but I'm vague on some of your issues. Your h decided he wants to stay m, but he was surprised you loved him deeply and so were you.

Your mom's saying about "he who is alone goes furthest" is actually the opposite of most men's experience and many marrieds. Married people are generally more productive, live longer, etc.

You CAN decide to ditch some of the beliefs you inherited. Treat it like jewelry that doesn't fit your taste, and get rid of it. "Inherit" from her, what helps and fits, and ditch the rest.

I just re-read my post to you and repeated myself. Sorry!

But how are you doing with showing him that you DO love him deeply?

Are you speaking in HIS love languages? (Every man/woman needs to know their partner in life really values them)

You might be surprised by what showing him some serious LOVE, triggers.
I suggest you get the book The Five Love Languages. After so many years you'd think I know all this about my h. But some of it, was new to me. Sheesh...

About this comment:
"But at least he is starting to realize that committment has many meanings, and one of it is making sure that your family is protected and safe....He was then shocked, and blurted out "what if I can't live without you?"

That's an amazing thing to hear. Were you moved by that at all?"

I can't say moved .... but I was happy to hear it yet expecting it at the same time.
It confirmed to me that H was confused.
It also confirmed to me that at that point I had made the right move, that I had made him think about what he might miss.

I simply answered him at that point that if even if we were D'd, if that were the case, we could always just get married again. He considered that, and smiled, and said "yes, you are right".

YIKES!! I am not sure it's that easy. Yes it happens but if it were that easy, we could all just take "time outs and divorce...and hope to remarry". (Buzzer sounding loudly!!)

I mean, geez Angel, isn't leaning on that exit/escape clause, the opposite of "learning the meanings of committment"?

I too am a believer, and I am working at turning over my sitch to God. I pray all the time.

Long story short, my H had an EA with another MD who worked part time for him supporting his research in a country far from here. He recommended her to do a post-doc where we had finished ours, and she got accepted. This was a year ago.

He dropped the bomb end of June 2010. I bargained, thought everything was my fault (for good reason), he said OK, we will wait till our DHe did not admit to the EA though until September. OW came to the USA in September too. I was a wreck, they now were communicating openly. By October I had found DR book and site.

By November, H ended EA. Went trhough horrible depression, wanted to reconnect with OW, thats when I said NO, choose OW or divorce. H steps back, but secretly contacts OW and they start communicating again. Worst times of our sitch.

February, I said I was going to give up, let go, and plan for us to go separate ways, but gradually. I asked him to support me, my plan was to quit my job, review for the boards, do a residency and practice. He said OK, after which we go our separate ways. But I started having anxiety attacks.

D also became anxious (she has a hx of eatig disorder and sep. anxiety). She then confessed to cutting herself in march. Therapist tells us that we better put our own feelings on hold for a while and concentrate on D. At that point H made an about turn. My intuition told me he had decided to stay.

We went on vacation, had a wonderful time. I was quickly learning to detach, forgive, etc.

We come back, wonderful mothers day, H tells me he thinks he could accept our situation enough to stay in the M forever.

I kept quiet, thinking to myself that at least acceptance is a start, but I have to work on getting him to work on the M.

I do have a lot of threads, some in newcomers, some in MLC.

I don't know how to link but just look them up under my name. I really appreciate having you, one of the pillars and one of the wisest vets in the BB, advising me.

Thank you soooo much. I hope one day to have the wisdom you have.

Cyrena too.... please keep on advising me. I feel like your sitch and mine are linked.... so alike in what I have heard from you so far.

I hope my outcome is as good as both of yours are.