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I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm not painfully shy at this point. It was something that I did a considerable turn from after working on my bigger issue (burnout). I actually make a point of going out and connecting with other people every day because I know that it's important for me. I look forward to it. I enjoy it and feel good about it.

A lot of things, for me, turned around before my W ever walked out. Because I was already working on myself rather intensively as a recovery from my own bad situation. But, I think that the insecurity stems from an assumption - an assumption that I will be rejected or that people don't care what I have to say. To that degree, confronting it is the healthy and growing thing to do.

Well Shoot.

WAW just left. We had a .. touching discussion for about an hour. There were some tears on both of our parts. I fear maybe it got too emotional. I don't know. I never really let myself tear up or cry when we were together, so maybe its kind of a 180... BUT I did not lose myself in terms of who I want to be and what I want and think. At least, I dont think I did..

Somehow, in discussing the division of property, she stated that she thought I was being diplomatic, and that I was holding back on her emotionally. I told her I'm sorry if she feels that way and I don't know exactly how, but this turned into a discussion about feelings and I basically asserted that I want to be happy, I want her to be happy and if not having me in her life makes her happy, then I'll be okay and I'm sure she will too. I meant this - but I kind of think it probably isn't the best thing to say to her.

I suggested that she take the wedding photos and give them to her parents, as they paid for the photographer. She questioned whether I was sure about that.. I told her yes - I've had 2 months to think about it and do not want them. I mean this.

I said something a little snarky at one point about how she could have the bed but I'm taking the comforters.. how the summer one I bought for her (she was sleeping in the other room and complaining that it was cold) but obviously that didn't work out too well. Ooops...

She said she has a lot of doubts and worries. I told her that from my perspective, it seems like she knows exactly what she wants and is pursuing it intently. I didn't say this with any meanness, just that it looks like she does know what she wants.

She is still going with this thing of not forgiving herself and not liking the person she thinks she became. She says she doesn't forgive herself for the A, and doesn't forgive herself for leaving me. I told her that she can't undo the A, and leaving me is her choice. She seems to be fixated on the idea of worrying about me and worrying about if I'm okay. I don't get it - grrr..

Somehow we talked about being around one another and I said I understand if she is uncomfortable around me.. she asked me if I was uncomfortable around her. I said not really, although sometimes I get anxious beforehand. This is true - I like being around her and I have always loved talking with her. I think her discomfort comes from guilt and for whatever reason, she doesn't seem to get it.

She told me she feels like she is going to lose me forever. I told her that she will, because that is what she is doing - by divorcing me, it is saying "I don't want you in my life anymore." So she is losing me - but its more like she is walking away from me. I told her that it is hard for me too and that there are many times I've wanted to look at her FB profile or call her up just to chat. Then I said something along the lines of "but I guess it isn't really hard, it's hard because I make it hard for myself by wanting things that aren't mine to have"

She did her "you are so kind and generous, smart... blahblahblah" routine. I responded with "I'm also selfish, insecure, shy, impatient, lazy,... I'm a whole lot of things and I'm sure that I'll never be done learning to be the person I would like to be." I'm just sick of her saying this stuff as if she actually believed it.. if I was really that awesome - would she have left me?

I told her "I've always believed in the good in you, and it's what I've always loved.. you also have a lot of cr@ppy things in you and I've always tried to overlook that.. you're human.."

I feel like I got dangerously close to trying to manipulate her emotions.. rather than let her deal with how she felt, telling her she had good in her and stuff.. am I doing more than I really should be in there? I can't be responsible for soothing her guilt over her affair and all the lies she told.. I feel like I stepped over the line.. perhaps not as bad as I could have, but still. It isn't a favor to take responsibility for her dealing with her issues.

She is going to be coming over next Friday to pack stuff up and put it in storage. I am not looking forward to that experience but I will need to be prepared as possible. Good sleep, emotional homeostasis, visualization. Strong distractions...

2x4 to your heart's content, my well-meaning friends.. I'm going to go put some ice packs in the freezer.

I'm not sure what to make of a lot of this.. for myself.. for her.

It seems like she is at least framing this to me (if not herself) as something she needs to do because of what she did.

I am prepared to cut off contact w/ her once D is finalized. It isn't an idle threat. I know what I am like around ex-GF's so I don't think it is in my interests to be around an ex-W. I am better off without in that case.. there is nothing tying me to her (like kids..) and I'm grateful for that. The fact is, I do love her and I do want to have a M with her. But, if I can't have that then I really don't want to be around her - too painful, and I think I would just get 'stuck.'

She may be fishing to see if there is any chance you'd forgive her.

I think that was her indirect way of saying she wants to come back. I think you handled it well. The guilt must be killing her, she can't forgive herself and is punishing herself, of course in typical WAW style you are the victim. It also could be that her guilt is so intense that she doesn't want to deal with the hard work that it will take to make things right so she is taking the easy way out and pushing the D.

I think for now, you have to keep the whole I understand you want to leave, and you can. Although I don't want you too.

If she does, I think she wants you to take a stronger role in the m. She probably wants you to set boundaries, and to establish control. I know mine did, she wanted me to stand up more for myself in the m. The irony was that I saw myself as a loving compromising husband. (it's weird but in a way I think your w wants to atone for her sins).

She worries you may never forgive her, yet at the same time wants you to be strong enough so that she can never stray again.

[edited by dbmod: reference is not recommended nor allowed]

GB,

Thanks for the feedback..



At one point yesterday I asked her if she thought it had been easy for me to forgive her for the A. I think this might have been the first time I had ever implied that i had forgiven her. I think I have. Its a hard question to test.



Yes - in many ways I certainly viewed myself as acting out of what I thought was mutuality -- although I wasn't, as I really wasn't even thinking about my needs. It was more reactive than anything, moving to a different state every year or so.

I don't know if she wants me to set up boundaries explicitly. If anything, she has often complained that she felt like I was telling her what she could or couldn't do (because I told her I didn't want her talking to her friends about M issues if she wasn't going to talk to me about them).

One thing my W seems pretty firm on is this idea that I am intelligent, charismatic, clever, etc.. and she wants other people to see it as well as her. Not as in polygamy, but its clear to me she gets a reflected sense of self from the idea of being married to a 'cool dude.' This is a challenging one for me - if I look inside there is some truth to the fact that I do withhold these things in social circumstances - it is something I am working on and would like to change for my own benefit.

[edited by dbmod: reference is not recommended nor allowed]

I plan on finding this @ the library. Here is my concern with books like this: they tend to pathologize something that is a pretty common behavior. They refer to something in the general to reach a wide audience and create a 'system' for repair that leaves people with another label and its possible to get stuck within that system.

Aeolian
I can see your concerns with getting typecasted. While it may be easy to see NMMNG as an attempt to create broad labels in order to drive book sales, I think it deals with something that is much more societal.

The main concept is that in many ways our boys are raised by women. It's not an attack on feminism per se, but instead a critique on the lack of male involvement and guidance in our societies men.

In prior times boys spent most of their time either in the fields, hunting grounds, or shops with their fathers uncles and other male role models. They learned to model male behavior, and learned to accept and look for male approval.

Instead now many boys are raised by women, through the education system, single parenthood, and the absence of men who no longer involve their sons in their jobs.

The book asserts that men instead are raised with female notions of what a man should be like, furthermore they are raised to seek constant female approval, and neglect self approval, and the approval of other males.

In other words we think we are just doing what we can to be "fair" and make the women of our lives happy. When in reality we are really being needy, and insecure trying to win the love and affection of those we love by constantly cow towing to them.

In schnarch terms we have become so dependent on the approval of our W's that we constantly seek reassurance from them to cement that emotional fusion we think will lead to happiness. Meanwhile our partners see through this and run in an attempt to differentiate.

That's where the stealth contracts come in. "I will be a good husband but you better reciprocate" when they don't we lose our temper and become "not so nice". Our W's see through this and become suspicious of your niceness since they know there are strings attached.

You said your wife wants you to be a cool guy. That's just another way of saying she wants you to man up. A female acquaintance once told me: " I want a man that can stand up to me, not because I want to be intimidated, but because I can't trust a man will stand up for me and protect me, if he wont stand up for himself to me". This quote came from someone who is very strong independent kinda like your wife sounds.

NMMNG isn't an attempt to create a new psychosis, but a critique of the way our society raises it's boys.

See, this is where I see her looking for a reflected sense of self or even borrowed functioning. She wants me to be someone she can take pride in, and not feel self-conscious about. The issue for me is that perhaps this is also true. Either way I have to choose to do what works for my integrity. This means probably going through some discomfort and learning.. I just wanted to make sure that I'm doing it for my own benefit and not to try to 'win' her back in any way. I see the advantages of it, but because its been put in that context of something 'she' wants I tend to be cautious about it.

I don't think my wife is strong or independent. I think she was raised by a very aggressive mother who has shielded her children from the bumps and bruises of life. She tries to be 'strong' by emulating that kind of aggression but really the aggression contains a lot of the symptoms of someone who is very poorly differentiated and will break off any kind of alliance when confronted with themselves in a way they don't want to see. Typically this is done in the context of diminishing the other person to a point where the loss of that bond becomes less significant. I think that she has always felt the need to call herself a "strong woman" precisely because she is so insecure about whether or not she is.

It looks like the local library has it as an audio download. I will check it out.

Think I mighta screwed up again. I am not winning this week. I'm not about to quit, but I feel like I'm making things harder.. or pushing things a certain way. It might be good, it might not. I'm not sure.

W met me at a coffee shop to give me some mail and brought some tofu she had made.. we ended up hanging out for about an hour and a half talking about things... more R talk.

I kept my cool, and I kept myself collected. I kept calm. I didn't push blame. But I did state that things were what they were.

She brought up the idea of me going back to school - I pointed out that that wasn't really an option for me since I need to support myself financially and working part time isn't going to do that. I didn't say "this is all your fault" but I'm sure she can read between the lines and see that in a lot of ways, I'm f'd for the moment because she was the one earning the money, and I'm not in as good of a position. It is funny, because I can tell she feels very cr@ppy about this - I am in a position where I can't do the thing she would like me to do (and I would prefer to do), because she has created a situation where I don't have that as an option at the moment. At the same time, it is the kind of thing that she might feel was a pathway towards regaining whatever respect she feels that she lost for me.

At one point, she said how she feels like she has grown up a lot from this experience. How she made grown up mistakes and is having to make grown up decisions. I asked her what she meant.. she meant having an affair and deciding to get divorced were grown up mistakes/decisions. I probed this a little further.. asking her if she felt like getting a divorce always makes someone a grown up. I asked her if having affairs was a mature thing to do. I asked her if choosing to remain married is also a grown up decision. I asked her if she felt that getting married was a grown up decision.

She talked about how she needed her friends @ the apartment when she packed up and moved her stuff because it was going to be one of the hardest things she's ever had to do in her life, emotionally speaking. I said something to the extent of "Well it's what you want.. why would it be hard? I would think that you wouldn't have a hard time with it." I guess in a sadistic way I'm promoting whatever internal conflict she has going on - pointing out the paradox of saying "I want this" but also saying "having this is so hard for me." . I told her that despite what she says, I can only look at her actions and they send a clear message to me that she wants to be divorced and have me out of her life. She talked about how she doesn't want me out of her life and I again pointed out that inevitably I will be because I do not want to experience that pain.

At one point I told her that she had never actually told me what she wanted in our marriage. She said she wanted a partner - an equal, and that she didn't feel like I was those things. I disputed this on a variety of levels. I pointed out that I am a valuable person and have contributed a lot to our M and that many of the things she felt she was doing well were largely situational. I pointed out that every time I tried to improve my life this past year she would cut my legs out from underneath me by dropping another bomb in my lap. I told her I wonder if she really wanted me to improve or just wanted me to look good to the extent that it reflected well on her. And I also pointed out that in a lot of people's eyes, they wondered about why I married someone who seemed very shallow to them. This wasn't a nice thing to say - I'm sure it hit her right square in her sense of reflected self.. worrying about what people think of her.. I didn't say it meanly, just in the context of questioning the notion of 'equals' - how it might mean something very different depending on how you compare it.

I should have just reflected that one back to her and asked her to expand on it.. she would have inevitably stumbled over her own words.

She said that she left when she did because she felt like she was going to end up at the same point down the road and didn't want to waste our time. I pointed out that there is no way she could have predicted that, anymore than she could have predicted the consequences of her other choices over the past year.

She again brought up her confusion and guilt I told her it seems to me like she is being self-flagellating and perhaps making herself feel better by punishing herself. I suggested that perhaps beyond the point where she learns something and changes it, she might be engaging in a bit of masochism.

I don't know what the heck is wrong with me lately. I mean, I'm not raising my voice, or even trying to control her thoughts. I'm being very clear about what is my viewpoint and what is hers. But I feel like I'm slding back in some way.. I'm not even entirely sure where or how, but I feel like I am. Maybe I just need to go more dark.. I feel like the conversations aren't bad, they are thoughtful and respectful, but am I pushing her? am I encouraging her to leave? Maybe she really is willing to have me out of her life if thats what it takes to be D. I don't like to believe that, but I guess I need to accept that as very possible truth. Discomfort.

Sounds you are doing well just don't tell her what you think she thinks. You are probably right, but WAW's are known to do the opposite, or change their mind just to prove you wrong. Assert who you are, what your thoughts are, and what your plans are. Inevitably they are all connected to hers she'll get the hint.

In fact it's almost better to say:

"I don't understand why you're doing this, but if you must there is nothing I can do no matter how much it hurts, so I must move on myself. "

This statement asserts that what she is doing is hurtful, that you are independent know, and most importantly by not "understanding" her motives you force her to stop and ask her self. "what are my reasons again?".

IMHO most WAW's come back when all the adrenaline, anger, passion, excitement of their freedom wears out. They are left sitting by themselves wondering and finally logically reasoning if all the pain hardship and stress they have created is worth it. Then they can look at you and hopefully see your changes and see that there might be a chance. Hopefully the DBing and GAL push her over.

If you tell her too much what she thinks you'll get this:

"he thinks I'm feeling guilty?! I'll show him"

You could be the best psychologist in the world and she still wouldn't listen.

Woah. This is brilliant. This describes my BF to a "T" - this has been my entire R. Holy cow.

Wish you could say more about this or ... I mean, how do you even maintain a R with someone like this?

Anyway, I think she is being selfish and looking for forgiveness to make herself feel better above anything - even though that forgiveness only seems - potentially - to be making her feel worse, since that makes you a decent guy -