...thought about posting multiple times, but stopped myself each time, by just telling myself that I could handle it on my own. Which I did. This website has been a great help, but it's time to stop using it as a crutch.
...Well on Thursday night she came back and got in bed besides me, ... and we ml. She slept in the bed afterwards. The next morning she made a delicious breakfast, but was acting a bit odd. I eventually asked if she was ok. Her response was: this is so hard to tell your husband. I tried to be cool, and talked to her. Eventually she told me she wanted to make plans for the weekend with a girl.
The statement didn't catch me too off guard, I wasn't even that surprised tbh. I told her it was no problem and I hoped she had fun. She found my response a little puzzling, and asked if I was ok. I told her I was fine with it as long as I was still the first priority in her life. She said I was, and to not worry since "there is a 90% chance nothing will happen". I told her it was no problem, we held each other and kissed. Left for work, not too concerned really.
Near the end of the day she sends me a text telling me to hurry home because she was in the mood. I do but she no longer was. Either way we fooled around a little, and I went to do some errands when I got back i took a nap she woke me up to tell me she was in the mood after all. We ML, afterwards she felt very comfortable sharing things with me and let me know that the girl canceled. She felt a little rejected and I tried to cheer her up.
...we had a big fight about money, punctuated with her saying "I guess I'll just trick a guy into paying for my things!" I saw this as just another variation of the "will do porn to help with the bills" tactic.
Confronted her about it, told her how disrespectful it was, and how I did not appreciate or would tolerate it. It wasn't an angry confrontation, we did a lot of hard work and made progress. Apparently she got it into her head that whenever I worry about money, her saying something outrageous would get me to snap out of it, and I'd fix everything. She claimed that she always noticed I snapped out of it.
...She mentioned again that it was hard for her to show compassion, because her mother was like that with her. By this point things had cooled down, and I jokingly said: "I thought you didn't want to be like your mother!". She got upset, but in a playful kind of way.
....I know some may say I am enabling her, and in some ways I am. I don't think either of us knows how this marriage will play out, except that we love each other's company. She is no longer actively WAW, although still insists in exploring her sexual identity. Frankly I'm not too bothered by it. I can tell she herself is unsure as to how far she can go.
..I can also tell she herself is unsure so in the case she decides she does not want to, itd be pretty awkward if I had. Maybe if this is something we both agree is good, I'll search for an OP...
From what you have posted, my 2-cents is that your wife is confused about what she wants and is disfunctional in how she interacts with you.
You appear to have done some marvelous 180's and are not being manipulated as much by her attempts at getting you to fight with her. I think that not letting her manipulate you is important. You are forcing her to think about her actions and learning that she needs to interact with you differently.
I believe strongly that you should watch a persons actions and not their words. Her words are quite shocking and confrontational. Her words may actually be to try to shock herself as much as they are to hurt/manipulate you. She really does sound like she is trying to figure herself out in a very unusual kind of way by trying things that she isn't comfortable with to see if she will actually do them. Her actions (so far)are much milder and less confrontational. However the behavior is potentially self-destructive.
The comment about not becoming her mother is to me telling.
In earlier posts you felt she was in an MLC. Have the two of you talked about that or is it the elephant in the room? She sounds like she needs to do some introspection and figure out her life and what she wants to do with it.
Your comment about "enabling" is a good one. I have always felt that you were pretty quick to figure things out. So why do you think you are enabling her?
What would help your wife to grow up and mature? Would getting a job, would counseling, would her doing a GAL program help her figure herself out? If you are "enabling her behavior" what are some of the thing you can do to help her deal with the real world?
I think that you are wise not to let her suck you into fighting with her. I also think that she is really struggling and acting out for your attension. Make sure that you keep up with your GAL.
Good luck to the two of you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
YAH, Starsky Tbh this is my way of dropping the rope. All this time I have tried to keep us together, this has included trying to prevent us from taking a relationship style that is dangerous, and once I decided to be open minded and give it a try, I wanted to ease us into it so as to improve our chances at being successful in a relationship style that requires ALOT of work.
Nonetheless she doesn't want that and would rather just "go for it" and see what happens. It's risky, and I wanted to not do it that way. Yet I finally got to the point where she is willing to risk this much, well then I am too. At every phase of this journey I felt our marriage was not worth the risk. That's why I wanted to go slowly build trust, and intimacy first.
She doesn't want to wait and wants to go for it. I'm fine with that, whatever the consequences are we'll just have to live with them.
I guess here are the scenarios:
A. Both of us decided we don't want this afterall, we go back to closed.
B. One or both of us hates the open arrangement, the R ends.
C. We both like the lifestyle and continue it.
I am ok with all three options. I know must folks here think B will happen. I wouldn't like that, but it's ok I've accepted it if it does. Which one do I prefer? I don't know anymore. I guess all I know is that B would hurt, so I wouldn't want that.
Besides this gigantic issue, I really do cherish every day we spend together, and I know she does too. We have a lot of fun together even if it's just hanging out around the house doing nothing. Hope for the best I guess.
The only plan is to take it day by day. Watch what she does see if I like it. See what type of marriage we end up with. I seriously think neither of us knows at this point.
I guess the only plan is to keep GAL, and love myself first.
That reminds me, I decided to keep reading PM on my own. I started at a good time, I think we were starting to get emotionally fused again. Time to pull back and be my own man again.
In other news all our stuff arrives tomorrow from the states. Looking forward to having my racing bicycle, guitar, game cards, video games, and books back. Found a local place I can arrange lessons in English for my guitar playing. There is also a martial arts dojo that teaches jiu jitsu, mma, and kickboxing. Might sign up for some classes once things normalize in my routine. (YAH how's that for manly? )
That reminds me, I decided to keep reading PM on my own. I started at a good time, I think we were starting to get emotionally fused again. Time to pull back and be my own man again.
Great book.
I can't help but wonder, though, if all the things your W is doing represent someone trying to be more differentiated, but still not being fully willing to 'take the hit'?
One of the big things Schnarch discusses is how as we become a more solid and flexible self, we are actually far more capable of holding on to our best sense of who we are and not acting in a way that is destructive to our own integrity.
Making threats of stripping or doing porn as a response to other aspects of life coming up, seems kind of like a behavior intended to maintain that emotional fusion. Perhaps there is something that your W could be confronting in herself about why she chooses to respond that way?
Quote:
The only plan is to take it day by day. Watch what she does see if I like it. See what type of marriage we end up with. I seriously think neither of us knows at this point.
Can you ever really know?
One of the other things I took from PM, and it seems like a big component of DB, is that when one person in the relationship begins to differentiate, the ecology of the relationship changes and the other person is going to be thrust into their own 'crucible' So to that end, perhaps in seeing what you do and that you maintain your integrity, your W may find herself in a position where she is comfortable looking a little deeper too?
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
.....There is also a martial arts dojo that teaches jiu jitsu, mma, and kickboxing. Might sign up for some classes once things normalize in my routine. (YAH how's that for manly? )
For ex-NG's staying with GAL is very important.
As a 5LL believer and guy committed to my M, I don't think pulling back would ever be an option for me. Unconditional love with the realization that what my wife chooses could end our marriage, yes......but not my pulling back from her, unless it were part of DBing.
PM is a hard read and hard (for me) to really understand, but valuable. Plan on having to really think about what Schnarch is saying.
Sounds real alpha-male, but only do it if you think it will be something that makes you a better more integrated man. Some martial arts come with a strong dose of ethics and teach the appropriate and inappropriate use of force. A long time ago I studied Goju Kai karate and Aikido, the philosophy of the proper use of force was as valuable to me as the fighting techniques.
You are getting lots of good advice from others. Marriage is a crucible. Look at some of your earlier posts and think about how much you have learned about yourself in just a few months. Look at all the knowledge you have gained about yourself, your father, your wife, and what is really important to you. Look at what you have changed about the way you act and how that has partially changed the way your wife acts. There is hope and you will find happiness if you work at it.
Good luck to you and your wife, I hope you find happiness and love.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
That's great stuff, but before i get into a deep discussion on schnarch and my M, first I must make a journal entry.
Ok so part of my 180's for both DB and NMMNG was to no longer allow myself to walk on egg shells, and to express what I really feel. This is because like many NG's I used to get passive aggressive, and even when I was totally nice my W could see that I wasn't being completely honest. Which would in turn make her mad.
So this morning, she makes me a nice big breakfast. It was nice, I thanked her verbally, and told her it looked delicious. She gave me the usual, "quit exaggerating and try it first". So I did, it tasted like lime dish soap. Tried to be polite, and said did you add Mrs Dash? (a seasoning she knows I do not like). She said no, you don't like it do you? What does it taste like. I told her I didn't like it, and that to be honest it tasted like soap. At this moment she had a meltdown and just started calling me names, mixed with the word ungrateful. I apologized, and tried to be honest about her cooking like she is always complaining that I don't. (she's really a wonderful cook, and hits so many home runs, that she doesn't believe I like her cooking that much). So she is always demanding I tell the truth.
Well she shows up with a squeeze bottle of mayo, I love mayo. Then proceeds to squeeze half the bottle on the eggs. I was actually going to try to eat them. She walked away angry to make my lunch, literally slamming every utensil she touched, I ate the patties, and drank the strawberry milk. Then took the eggs to throw away. By now I was angry over her inability to handle the slightest criticisms.
Turns out, she added a local spice made of dried fish. This is meant to be lightly sprinkled. First off I hate dried fish, it just has a bad taste to me. Secondly I could have stomached it if she hadn't poured what seemed to be 20 times the serving size. To make things worse, she is vegetarian, so she hadn't even tried it.
All that is irrelevant, it was the way she took it. She didn't have to get so angry, but like we have discussed before she can't control her emotions once they escalate. She ended up packing lunch and slamming the door on the master bedroom.
*update*
She just came out, she seems calm, yet a little on edge. I also just found out we are getting the day off. She told me she wants to get some things done.
I have learned not to drag things, so I will drop it. We WILL address this incident at some point today. I'm still pretty mad.
I know her breakfasts are one way of expressing her love language. I guess me saying they tastes like soap, would be like telling someone they are a bad hugger if they are physical, or that they sound like a donkey when saying I love you to someone who is verbal.
Nonetheless she is always complaining that I am not honest with her when it comes to her cooking. I guess the equivalent of " I hugged you to show you love, but your hug back was not sincere enough". She just told me I didn't have to be such a jerk about it. As you guys can imagine I really didn't want to be a jerk. We are just in typical love language conflict.
John Gottman has a concept called "a harsh startup." Basically it is an interaction between H&W that starts poorly and proceeds to go down hill very quickly.
After action evaluation:
Cooking/acts of service are one of your wife's LL
If she says "I love you" (aka here is a special breakfast for you) and you say to her "I love you" ..."this tastes like crap;" would you expect her to feel rejected?
What if you had said something like "Honey, there is some unusual taste to these eggs could you taste them, as I want your opinion." Would a different outcome have likely happened?
Once she tasted them, then you could say that you don't like the taste of the eggs, but that you do like the taste of the toast/juice/etc. and could she please use a different spice next time as you really appreciate her cooking for you.
Let me create a similar interaction to illustrate what I am trying to say, but using something between my wife an me.
I know that when I initiate sex with my wife (my way of saying "I love you") and she rejects me I feel really bad. I have explained to my wife, if she puts her hand on my chest (LL=touch), tells me she loves me, tells me that I am a good man and she is proud of me and what I do (LL=words of affirmation), she can the tell me that she has plans to have sex with me later that day or the next day. If she does that, I don't feel rejected, because my wife used my LL's to say she also loves me and she said sex is something she wants to share with me, just not right now.
Do you see how to avoid rejecting a LL statement of love, but still honestly getting your point across?
Abandoning NG ways can be done and providing honest feedback doesn't need to be done via a harsh start-up.
Just my thoughts for what they are worth. You can still make her feel loved, even when you provide honest negative feedback.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
YAH You're right in that more tact was required on my part, that being said she's vegetarian so she never would have tasted the eggs lol. Just frustrated knowing she's on yet another low episode caused inadvertently by me.
