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couple things Tad....first, you need a hug

(((( ))))....okay, done.

Now for the gentle LOVING SUPPORTIVE rest of the post.

Just to name a few things my h said in his MLC that I recall verbatim, so you know that while your w may be batchit, you must not spend your energy on the crazy stuff.

The crazy comments deserve nothing more than a chuckle. The valid things need addressing. If you've truly done that, SERIOUSLY, then Move on...

(At one point I wanted to have a thread for just Wacky MLC comments" );

H & I had the following conversations, and I'm quoting pretty much exactly.

H: I thought you'd be in the senate by now (the United States Senate, folks). You've underachieved...

H: why haven't you written a best selling novel or screenplay yet? Or at least have your own show...

Conversation held while I painted a bathroom:

M: do you realize if you leave, there's a good chance you'll lose your family?

H: guess I'm willing to take that chance.

(H denies he'd "ever say anything like that". I now believe he honestly has no recall of it.)


M: H, do you think d's care more about the money you earn,
or time together as a family?

H: they'll care about our 401k being fully funded...

another day...

H: Even if we do divorce I'll just come here & win you back...

H: you & the kids will see I'm right when we JET SET ALL OVER THE GLOBE

H: You've always wanted me to be miserable.

H: You just want me to be miserable.

H: you've always held me back

H: you don't want me to make anything of myself

H: you'll never make anything of yourself...

(H is a board cert MD. Before that he was a DVM. I'm a L
& earn 6 figures. I am NOT a US Senator-sigh).


Tad, since I know I am not a loser or underachiever

(and even if I were, IF it was good enough for h for decades, how bad could it have been?)

I am not going to let his "flawed data" get to me.

BUT I ADMIT, I DID RUMINATE ABOUT IT ALL BACK THEN

Finally I got good T, who helped me figure out what was "real data" and what wasn't. For instance,
H's Saying I "always wanted him miserable" is crazy and untrue. I knew that then...but it still hurt.

I had to let go of it since contemplating it really was pointless & painful.

Worse, it's self inflicted pain.

A good deal of your present day pain is self inflicted

That's what we want you to see b/c that's what you control.

Please be kinder to yourself. By that I mean, take some gentle self protective steps

such as NOT looking at fb

(BTW, as an aside--may I point out how INaccurate your take on this is anyhow...who posts SAD looking pics of themselves? NO ONE. So they've already screened out the NON highlights of their lives.

ALso I have very few pics of my h and I in my FB albums. Usually one of us is taking the pic, plus h doesn't like unflattering pics (nor do I) getting posted.

I mostly check in w/friends, or post jokes (I write comedy as an avocation and YES, I'm Funny, damn it!!) my latest rants on topical matters, etc.

There's very little info about my R's in my fb page. Too personal really.

SO, aside from NOT looking at her FB page anymore, also don't read so much negativity into what you saw anyhow.

Honestly, Unless and until she changes her relationship status to "SINGLE AND LOVING IT!", what diff does it all make?

As for her "coming around" or out of her MLC...

I concede two lines of thought.

On one hand, we cannot expect linear movement from a MLCer to home.
It's not a clear path from them to us.

OTOH, without some clarity AND over some time,

I would not be interested in changing or re-assessing anything on my end...

b/c what's to react to? Is there a question being asked of you by her?

IF SHE IS COMING AROUND...

What difference would it make in your detachment work?

It would mean what you were doing isn't hurting your cause...so stay the course...

what you are really asking us is an impossible question, and it's whether we see any hope.

We cannot say anything for certain. But even if you were a newly happily M,

there would be no guarantees you'd remain that way.

My suggestion-
Finding a job needs to be your priority b/c your self esteem seems based on two things:

your employment status and your perception of her opinions of you.

You control both of those things.

So Get that job, and stop using her words or apparent lack of interest in you, as a reflection of your self worth. They are not. That's "flawed data".

While you perceive her as being so happy, maybe she's just busy...

(I read that most depression is really a sense of purposelessness)

My h was so preoccupied in his new work, that he often didn't call the kids for days. Or see them/us for weeks and this went on for 2 years.

I now think my h ached for us a lot more than I realized at the time.

Until he and I really started reconnecting (after he admitted he was depressed), he seemed very busy and upbeat and lacked the time and energy for R work.

He had a demanding new intense job when he left us, so there were certainly times he spent NOT thinking of us, & that's to be expected...

there were few reminders of us when he was doing a surgical procedure and lived in a brand new environment.

Does your w's job contain family centered activities likely to remind her of you and your sons? I didn't think so..so she has things to think about OTHER THAN YOU and YOUR M...you are surrounded by reminders of your previous life.

it's a lot better for the mental/emotional health of the LBSer

when we have jobs and activities and people that occupy our minds too.

(Hence the GAL-which I think mandates activities involving meeting people, preferably new ones...

Again, that's something YOU have control over.


Others have said you should find work that you like and pursue it (& of course that's Plan A) but

even if you're not financially hurting, I say

just GET A JOB and get your MIND OFF of HER

and money coming in...make sense?

I mean this part seems clear to me.

TAD, You may find that
only when you have your awakening, an awakening that takes your mind/heart off of her, and realize

finally, fully, that you can AND WILL be happy with or without her,

can she afford to take a hard look at her choices, and have her own awakeningi.

Ironic, a paradoxic, but true.

Only when you really let her go and are at peace can you hope to have her return.

There are never guarantees in R's and some never wake up, but of the ones who have awakened and reconciled, this seems to be a common theme

and even if she never returns, you will be happier regardless.

Sweetie, I know how hard this is.

I want you to know that I did the same thing you did for a long time. I made myself crazy trying to figure out why. Why did this man that I have loved for over 30 years become someone else? Why did he do this to me? Why wasnt I a better wife? Why didnt I see what was happening?

I spun so much I was dizzy. And my friends on here kept saying the same thing everyone is saying to you. I didnt care. I didnt hear it.

Until one day, I got it.

I realized that knowing why wasnt going to change what is. Knowing why wasnt going to help me through it. Because it really doesnt matter why.
I know you think that if your questions could just be answered, you can fix it.

I can tell you that knowing the answers wont fix it. And if you keep trying to figure it out, you will continue to be stuck.

Here's the thing. All this stuff you keep fixating on is weighing you down. It's holding you back.

The truth is they are in crisis. You didnt cause it, you couldnt have prevented it.

And since it is her crisis, you need to get out of the way and let her walk it.

She is going to be a million different people on different days. She is broken. Trying to figure out what she meant by something she said or did is not important because tomorrow it will be something different.

That is why you really must stop looking towards her.

Checking her facebook serves no purpose for you but to hurt you. So stop that. And I hope you didnt show your son her picture on there.

It is very important that you not do or say anything that will in any way push your sons to view her negatively.

You need to get out of the way of those relationships, too.

Put your marriage safely in a box and store in away right now.

I want to leave you with these thoughts:

Leave your wife to walk her journey.

You can only control you and your life.

Show your sons how to navigate through life's struggles with dignity, honor and strength.

Each day try to be the person you want to be. Some days you'll do it, some you wont, but that should always be the goal.

It is when you truly let go with compassion and forgive your wife that you will really start to move forward on your journey.

And when you do that, if your wife looks in your direction, she will see a new Tad. A stronger, wiser, more compassionate, Tad.

Be the man you want to be.

Do it for you and your children.

Now, let's here about the things you want to change and the things you want to try. Good for you for going back to school.

Who cares how your wife looks or what she says? Not you because you're living your life, right?

Keep going.

oops, should be let's hear, not here. Yikes! My bad.

Tad, as you've probably noticed I'm in much the same position.

Until this week, I didn't realise that pushing this all away, and out of the forefront of my thoughts is for MY benefit.

Listen to these Ladies. I know it's such a simple concept, but so hard to "get".

What our S's do or say has very little to do with us these days. WE are not their focus or concern as their leaving has made clear.

I don't want to hurt anymore Tad, emotionally or mentally. Thinking about my STBX, what he may think or feel, what he does or does not do, hurts me, and puts me in a sad and dark place where all I do is examine my percieved deficiencies ( which may or may not be TRUE at all because perceptions ARE NOT neccessarily reality), where I am able to rip apart my own self worth again. No more.

So...I release him and those thoughts to the Universe/to God.
This situation is out of my control.

What is in my control is doing what's best for me and my children and getting a grip on who I really am, addressing my own characterflaws that "I" think need changing, what I want to be, what I truly value, and what helps me find my "happy".

I am only at the starting gate, and I go hour to hour.
I do notice though my desire to even have contact with my STBX is diminished greatly.

(((Tad)))

25 has given you great advice.

Two more points to stress!

There is always HOPE.
NO EXPECTATIONS but HOPE is allowed.
That is something that is inside of US.

Second MLC is a backwards crazy mixed up world,
so many times what seems hopeless and horrible can actually be forward progress within the crisis.
Things must get worse before they get better.
When things seem like they are getting good, that might actually be a bad sign,
and when they are getting bad it might really be good.

If you don't understand this you may have to trust me,
but like MACH1 says you need to be able to drink coffee with a fork while sitting on the ceiling.

That is the truth about MLC.

Drinking coffee with a fork while sitting on the ceiling? LOL. I like that analogy. Very succinct.
Yep. Exactly!! That takes time Tad. And sometimes it takes ruminating until you throw up. Until you learn that the world you thought you knew was backwards and upside down and sometimes back again so fast you didn't have time to adjust.
As long as you stay connected, you will feel that pain. Letting go in a loving way is not giving up, Tad. By loving I mean by not going out and getting girlfriends, partying like a rock star and bad mouthing your spouse. It's ok to feel ok about yourself.
Self esteem? What's that? I know when it hit me I had my legs taken out from under me. I am at a place now where I can look back and see that this had been building for far longer than I was aware.
But I agree that once it sinks in, you'll see that you have no control over her and what she does. I think you'll see that you cannot know if she is happy or not. She doesn't even know! You said a lot of conflicting things as an example: she looks terrible and then she looks happy. Really Tad? Can you tell either of those?

25's list of crazy things said made me laugh and almost cry when it brought back those memories. Know what? I've seen 'em too as have almost everyone here. I think a list would be a good thing to see, 25. Even bringing up the past posts and compiling them.

Tad, focus on rebuilding your self-esteem. You don't know for sure what is going to bring that back, but get started. Don't feel guilty for your feelings. Don't worry that you are now feeling bad. It's been a month and that is incredible in this situation. But it comes and goes as I think you have been told before. I know I mentioned it. It's NORMAL Tad. It's no fun, but it is normal.

Detach and walk away for now Tad. Stay away. If you need a rubber band on your wrist to remind you to not look or snoop, then get one (snap the rubber band to distract you; you'll get the same pain either way, but the rubber band may be more constructive.)

Don't feel guilty for being happy Tad. You didn't mention it, but it may be part of this.

Stay positive focused on the things in your life you can be grateful for. Focus on you and rebuild that self-esteem. Rebuild your positive attitude. Then there will be more to do but you need that foundation to work from.

Lots of good advice here and lots of caring people that want to see you get healthy. Focus on you Tad. You are doing very well and need to continue that.

AJ

I'm sorry if this is a little long.

25 - Thanks for the hug. I needed it. I like your idea of wacky MLC comments. I will add a few that I heard here:

"You always thought I was fat."

"You wouldn't let me adopt a daughter from China."

"You always took me to the wrong grocery store."

"I was never dark enough for you."

"You wouldn't let me get my teeth fixed."

Those are just a few. My friend had this one told to him by his MLC wife:

"You mow the grass on Friday evenings. Why couldn't you just do it on Saturday mornings like normal people?"

Classic.

You said that your H accused you of holding him back. I got the same accusation from my W.



Haha. So true. Never thought about that.



Yes, I've read that. The spouse is always last to reconnect to.



Very true. Staying the course......



True. I've been trying to get work. Still no luck. It is priority #1 though. As for her opinions of me, it is just what I gather because it is painfully obvious. She told me before she moved out that "I don't love you any more than I love the dogs."



True again, but everyone she works with is in their 40's and single. I believe she gets a lot of influence from them since they are the only thing that seems important to her right now.



Yes, this makes absolutely no sense to me, but everyone has told me that.

Brooklyn, thanks for responding. Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope you are well.



Yeah, I know. It still hurts to get the blame for every little thing. This is why I'm convinced that she hates me.



Yes, I've actually noticed this too. She actually admitted to me once that she is "broken."



I didn't. He happened to walk in the room.



I believe I have forgiven her. Compassion? I want to help her and talk to her, but I know I can't right now. I hope she knows that I am here if she needs me.

SC, I hope you are well. You sound like you may be doing better.



Yeah. Not for the benefit of the M, but for the benefit of ME. I'm starting to get that. Awfully hard though.



I'm getting that way too because whenever we do have contact, I'm left hurting and wondering.....

Cadet, thank you. I do have HOPE. It is hard to have without expectations though.



Haha. Confusing as Hell. Now I'm even more messed up! I do get what you are saying though.

Still learning to drink the coffee with a fork.

AJ, always good to hear from you my friend. I hope you are well.



I agree. I feel like I have creeped back into my hole a little bit though.



I am starting to see this too. When she told me she wanted out, everything seemed like it happened overnight. Looking back though, I'd bet it is safe to say that she has been going through something for 2-3 years. Maybe even longer. Does that mean that she has already been in the monster we call MLC for 2-3 years or did she enter it when she says that she "snapped?"



Not really I guess. She does look terrible appearance-wise. She used to have such beautiful skin. Now it looks very old. As for her being happy, she seems that way. After all, she got what she wanted right?



Trying to find a starting point my friend.

I was sitting at the computer today reading this board. I was hoping to God that W would call. Believe it or not, the phone rang. It was her. We only talked for about a minute:

M: Hello.

W: Hello there.

M: What's up?

W: I found two old books of yours that your grandfather gave you. Do you want them back or should I hold onto them for our grandkids?

M: You can just hang on to them.

W: Ok. Well, that is all I called for.

M: Ok. Yeah, just keep them.

W: Alright. I was just doing some dusting and going through a few things and found them. Thought I would call and ask about them.

M: Alright. Cool.

W: Talk to you later.

M: Ok.

W: Bye.

(At this point I wanted to tell her that I love her soooooooo bad, but I stopped myself.)

M: Bye.

This phone call actually made me feel good AND bad. Good because she is talking to me again. Before she would have just sent a text. Bad because she acts like what we are going through is just no big deal. She is DONE. D O N E.

God, I love her.

A few months ago I read in a post by Heartsblessing (I think) that said in one of the stages (I forget which one) The MLCer will sometimes become afraid of the dark. My W was in my livingroom the other day telling S25 that: "I haven't been able to sleep all week. It's kind of weird with nobody being in the house." Why am I mentioning this? No reason really. I just found it interesting.

I can't explain it, but I do feel like something is going on with her. She seems so different in the last few weeks since her surgery. A better kind of different. Can't put my finger on it. I could be wishful thinking, but S18 has noticed it as well. All I can do though is keeping doing what I am doing. Our last several interactions have been pleasant. Good? Bad? Who knows?

Anyways, that is the latest. Just wish she wasn't so done, without trying to give us a chance.

Our mediation is in 32 days.......

Thank you everyone. You have no idea how amazing you all have been.

Tad

o interesting. I heard that too that H said h "snapped" and I made him snap! Go figure.

Yes and no.
MLC is normally measured from bomb drop.
The day she "Snapped"
That is part of the stage REPLAY.
Their are two stages prior to REPLAY and
she was in them for the 2-3 years that you are referring to.(DENIAL and ANGER).

This is all just for your understanding and really does not DO anything.
Because you can still not FIX this.

OK?

Got it Cadet. Thank you very much.

I'm writing this through tears.

I had a hell of a night.

I don't think she is ever coming back.

I'm sorry if this is going to seem choppy, but I'm just trying to write things as I remember them.

W called last night because she wants to set up a meeting to go over things before mediation on August 10th. We've decided to meet at a coffee shop next Monday.

We ended up talking for 3 hours!! Yes, it was 3 hours of good and bad.....mostly bad. 3 hours of her telling me:

she doesn't have MLC (she brought this up because I mentioned this to her months ago)

telling me that she wanted to leave years ago

telling me how happy she is now

telling me that she has no feelings for me at all and doesn't know if they'll ever come back

admitted to "spewing" all sorts of lies

blamed me for cancelling our counseling sessions (she did this)

hated my radio personality and felt like she was married to him

said I should have taken her drinking as a sign

said she warned me years ago that we should go to counseling

told me that I MADE her wear lingerie in the bedroom

said I always thought she wasn't good enough

said I didn't like her boobs and thought they were too small

said I didn't support her

said I always thought the worst of her

accused me of putting my friends and everyone else before her

asked me what changes I was making because she can't see any

told me that the house was a mess

I asked her:

M: Do you know I love you?

W: Yes.

M: How?

W: I can see it in your eyes.

M: That's good. I'm glad you know.

W: Sometimes though you refuse to even look at me.

M: Because it hurts to sometimes.

W: I understand that.

Said that her joing the internet dating site had nothing to do with her leaving

Said that she was sorry for joining it, but she doesn't regret it because she was on her way out anyways

Accused me of controlling every situation

Said I had two chances to convince her to stay but I blew them

Another part of the conversation:

M: Why don't we just delay this for a few months?

W: You're not entitled to a delay.

M: I know that. I'm not entitled to anything.

W: No.

M: I'm not asking you to not file a divorce or to come home. I'm just asking you to put it off for a while.

W: I can't. I want it done. Plus, I've already paid to file.

M: Just consider it.

Nothing.

Said she doesn't know me anymore

Said if we did delay, she still might not like me and feelings may never come back

Said she is just done and can't do it anymore

Told me that she can't trust me and may never trust me

Said if we got back together, I would always wonder who she was talking to on the phone

Told me that I should get rid of my "radio personality" FB page and create one that is just mine. (I actually may do this)

Said that I should have given her the time she needed back in December

Says that S16 doesn't want to be with her because S18 brainwashed him and I brainwashed S18

Said that I should have never made love to her the day after my grandmother died 10 years ago

Told me that she needs to find out why she let herself be in such a sh!tty relationship for so long

Told me that she is vulnerable because of me and may never trust any man again

Accused me of talking on the phone all the time while driving

Said that I wasn't there for her or encouraging enough

Told me that I was a great father, but never really a dad

Said that the men in my life growing up were all sh!t and I never had a decent role model

Told me that her mom made her feel like she couldnt do anything right when she was growing up

Said that none of this has nothing to do with her childhood

Says she is absolutely sure she wants a divorce

Said that she needs someone and that someone is not me

Told me that our lives will always be inter-twined

Now says that she would like to work on our friendship

Said that I made a lot of mistakes when she first moved out and now it is just too f*cking late

Told me to make changes for me and not for her

Says that she can't even remember some of the lies she told

Said she was broken

Told me that I should have told her that I was writing my own vows. (I didn't because I wanted to surprise her.)

Said that she only wanted to renew as a last ditch effort

Says we have nothing in common. Says she wants an active lifestyle, but I don't.

Said that I was too late as usual to try to fix things

Said that if I saw a good-looking woman on tv and made a comment about it, that meant that she wasn't pretty enough.

Says that she has absolutely no stress now

Told me that if I get custody of S16 and get child support, she won't be able to live on her own

Says we grew apart

Said that my mom has no reason to be mad at her

Told me that there is nothing wrong with divorce. People do it everyday.

Said that instead of hanging around for a few months, she should have just left one day while I was at work like all of her friends told her to.

Says that what she did had nothing to do with being selfish

Says I chipped away at her love until there was nothing left

Accused me of never helping her enough

Said she never felt special

Said there were good times, but they didn't outweigh the bad

Told me that she isn't a mind reader and then said I should have been able to read her mind two minutes later

I'm sure there is more. I just can't remember anything else at the moment. I was actually surprised that she talked to me for as long as she did, but man did it hurt. I made a mistake when asking for a delay didn't I? Believe it or not, the conversation wasn't all that bad. I validated everything and apologized for the valid stuff. I didn't raise my voice, but asked her to please not yell at me numerous times.

I'm convinced that she is through. What the hell do I do now? I know I have to work on me, but last night hurt really bad. I was surprised that we even had a relationship talk.

I think I may be the one that is broken.

When will I learn?

Tad