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here is what I posted elsewhere today about alcoholism...



my father would wake up on Sunday morning and realize the black eye my older brother (s) had were from him

he did not quit drinking


He'd learn I had run away again b/c he hit me

he did not stop drinking

he hit my mother,

he did not quit drinking

he got diabetes and was told by his doctor "if you keep drinking you will die within 2 years"

he did not quit drinking

he got sick and found out he had liver cancer (which was related to alcohol)

and was told he would not benefit from chemo b/c the non cancerous part of his liver had scarring from alcohol (cirrhosis)

and he was not a candidate for a transplant with his other problems including diabetes, which had been aggravated by his drinking, for years...

The doctor told him

if you drink at all, you will die within 24-36 hours

so then he quit drinking, and

He died 56 days later.


My father had several college degrees including a law degree, a Master's in Theology, and PhD.

He was not a wino in the gutter.

He was a lawyer & held a high position in the day.

He taught Sunday theology classes to adults...I loved him.

Among other things, I believe he drank to self medicate for depression.

But the reality is, for whatever reason,

He was an alcoholic and his drinking killed him.

I later learned that my grandfather, a federal judge, was also an alcoholic who drank at night too. His first wife had died in childbirth and that saddened him...

So, is there a genetic factor for alcohol (or depression? Does it matter?)

MY fil is a retired Marine Corp officer with some serious medals for valor & some serious intelligence and advanced degrees...

He's on his 4th wife b/c he drank the first 3 wives away.

He missed a promotion at in the Marine Corp b/c he drank too much.

My mil was an alcoholic who held two jobs for over 25 years.

she babysat our infant son once. When we went to get him we had to break the door down b/c she had passed out, smoking, near him. We removed him from her living room and she never woke up and did not call the next day to inquire or apologize.

My h was mortified. I somehow remained calm b/c I had grown up with the same insanity

and I said "can we agree she'll never babysit him again?" and he did.
As far as I know, she never asked to...

Once she had some sort of break down, precipitated by trying to kill my h who was 19 at the time. She said "Satan was controlling him".

She only slowed her drinking b/c the medication she got for her mental condition was NOT to be mixed with alcohol, at all. She still drank of course, but less so. I think it made her feel sick.

A year or so later she got lung cancer

but the malnoursishment from her drinking,

made her die even faster than usual.

NONE of these ^^^ people were able to maintain healthy marriages, or marriages at all, b/c of their drinking.

None of these people quit drinking (except my dad at the very end)

My father said once,

"I don't drink to feel good, although that's how it began.

I drink so I won't feel sick".

They eventually "have to" drink

b/c they simply don't want the withdrawal

and don't minimize the severity of that withdrawal. IT's a bitch.

I know, I saw.

My dad did quit drinking for 7 months once (with medical supervision) and I recall two things. He attended AA and got so sad when he realized the extent of the damage he had caused.

But the other thing was he was so much calmer than before. And interested in what we were doing in our lives. God, how I wish he'd stayed sober...

He relapsed at my sister's wedding and it was not until his terminal illness that he was sober at length, again.

I loved my dad. I admired and miss his brilliance and articulation. But he was an alcoholic.

How to reconcile the admirable things with the terrible things?

I refuse to let his disease define all of him. It's one important piece,
but there was far more to my father than his drinking.

He had great strengths, and great weaknesses. He was a complicated man.
He was a flawed human, like all of us.

Your kids don't have to define their father by his drinking

but they have to face it for what it is.

I DO think it's a disease but there's more to it than that.

It's not something that "happened" to him, like other diseases.

But by calling it a disease, the alcoholic is more likely to accept that they have no choice but not to drink

by calling it a disease they are much more likely to get that they really are "powerless over alcohol"

and the only choice they have is to choose NOT to drink

If you or the alcoholic say "No, not a disease. Just control it. It's all up to them"

the danger is they'll think a few months of sobriety proves they can handle it, and they'll drink again.

I've had this discussion >100 times.

My mother wanted it to be solely a character flaw of my father's.

So theres a balance to the approach.

Free will and choice are part of it, but so is the disease aspect. You can't say "just stop" and expect that to work. I wish.

I hope I'm being clear enough.

Good morning Tipper,

I haven't posted to you for awhile altho I have been reading along. I'm in the midst of fighting what I feel is a losing battle with the alcoholics in my life, Including my husband.
But I wont go in to details here on your stich.

Please follow the advise of these wise woman ( WCW & 25 )

Just a short story in regards to my eldest brother
( who will be 60 years old in august )

Very intellegent person altho started using heavy drugs and alcohlol while a teenager. He was in the army for 19 years went thru 5 of the BEST rehabs the army could offer... got discharged before he was eligable for full army retirement..........
Continued to drink after each and every rehab

He has been married 3 times and has lived with 2 gals for an extended time.......they ALL left due to his drinking
Gave up parental rights to his first 2 boys, whom my aunt and uncle raised, and now has lost parental rights to his 10 year old son.

OK.....Zoom into the last 2 years...Foreclosed on house, which has been condemned for HUMAN habitation...Lost his drivers license,.....was living in his Van....and STILL making it to work every night...........until March...He was drinking a fifth of vodak a day..every day.
Passing out, leaving his gas stove on ( ON purpose ) Burning holes in the carpet at his new apartment and almost starting the apartment on fire.

I get an emergency call at 3:00 am regarding another suicide attempt, Go with one of his friend directly to a direct admit to our VA hospital.....OK It took them 8 days ( EIGHT ) to detox him. He was physically ILL for hours and hours...He was transfered to the rehab of the hospital where he spent 30 days............he was home 30 days attending AA 2 times a week.got cleared to go back to work..and 2 weeks later ..he's #@%# drinking again!!!!!

OK.what im trying to get across here is this a a very LONG road to recovery.....even for a person that seriously wants to quit...
Chances of your hubby getting sober to me is less than 5% if not
NILL. He cant do this on his own...and this is his PATH to take NOT yours. Continue as you were, Concentrate on you. Keep going to your meetings and like WCW said " GET off the teeter totter "

Your gonna get hurt, and your gonna get hurt bad if you dont distance yourself from him. I dont see anything changing here.
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

AS 25 said " I hope I'm being clear enough "

Good luck;
Sunny

Tipper, I think the biggest problem you have right now is dealing with the fear that "you might loose him if you say the wrong thing" Honey, don't you realize that he is hanging on to you? Tipper, do you not see the pattern? 25 Yrs. hit the nail on the head. Set a boundary with him and he will text you "I'm getting a divorce next week" Tell you what, the next communication you have with him, tell him the following, anyway you want to put it. " Your quitting drinking is a non-negotiable for me, I don't wish to live my life with an alcoholic for the rest of my life" I'll bet a month's pay he says back " I'm filing next week" Reply to that in this manner. "I'm sorry you feel that way, I will support your decision, but please respect my reasons for feeling the way I do" Then see what happens.... Wanna bet he starts changing his tune? You just took all his power from him. His game is trying to get you to accept his drinking, if you take a stand and tell him you are done with it, he has to ask himself which one is more important, you or the booze.... If he picks you, great, you win! If he picks the booze, you still win, you don't want a life with an alcoholic, I too have dealt with that as a child, its no fun. Anyway, Tipper, I think YOU need to take change, set your boundary, and tell HIM what it will take to get YOU back!

But my dear braveheart

isn't this all so obvious?

Granted, Tipper never succinctly states it...she over talks and qualifies things so much as to make them unclear (Sorry Tipper, but you are nearly always too wordy, thus sucking you into discussions NOT relevant to the core issue.)

Yet even this drunk h of hers came right out and asked her about getting sober being a condition of reconciliation...HE KNOWS...He sooo knows.

But he then laid it on HER as if she owed him her company

WHILE he supposedly attempts to get sober --

(AND with the least likely method of success

which, btw, he already did AND

failed at...oh yeah, that...)

...was it 2 days he went without booze & returned the book SHE gave him to read, or was it one day?

Worse, Everytime she contacts him she allows herself to get sucked into the most absurd "debate" about who needs to do what and who meant what.

Apparently She will not let go of him even if he is drinking

and that's not helping HIM

and it's just a cycle she is refusing to break.

But make no mistake,

he knows exactly what HE needs to do to attain a healthy reconciliation


(although he'd be satisfied with simply preventing her from moving on b/c he wants to KNOW she's still available to him

in case he changes his mind or temporarily wants her company or money or whatever...

he wants to know he still has her, even if he still drinks and even if he has OW...)


I am amazed when I recall that he has left her before...twice?

and she did the same things then, as she is doing now

except now she knows better....and yet...



Tipper, what will it take for you to stop enabling him?

25 Years, you are so right, you just have a better way of stating things than I do, I guess that is why I stay into trouble around here! LOL Anyway, whichever way she prefers to hear it, your way or mine, it is as we have both said it. If she will just stand tall, I think everything will work out for her. Question is, does she have the courage to do so. I hope she does.

Thanks all,

Update: He called me on sunday night and said all the right things. I listened and told him that I will not manage his sobriety, He needs to do it as he sees fit (I learned that in alanon).

He said he has sat and talked with his parents about quiting drinking and that his mom was so happy that she started to cry.

He said he wants to do M counseling.

Then on monday, he came by to take a quick walk with the dog and I when I got home from alanon. He was sweet. Bought me a necklace. I talked a lot about alanon and how it has helped me and that I will still be going to my meetings. He said, that is ok and he does not want to get in the way of my healing.

He said to me that he realizes that its either: Beer or Tipper and that he choses Tipper.
He said he has drank for 17 years and that he is willing and wants to try something new. He said he is bored of the bar scene, its the same thing every night. I agreed with him. He took the A.A. book I offered him in the past and said he would be willing to read it. He offered to go to meetings but said he knows he would be uncomfortable with it and didnt like the one that he did go to a few months ago with a buddy of his. I said its up to you how you go about your recovery, but sobriety is the only answer for us.

I am going to alanon tonight and I am going to get together with him briefly after that to discuss things more and to ask him about the M counseling thing.

I am really afraid, of all your above real life stories. I really hope that he is not just saying things to get me back and then to go back to drinking down the road. I am afraid to push him away too much, but I know that I need to set some boundaries. I want to give him a chance and I hope you will all support me. Isnt this forum here to save M's rather than say: he's hopeless, move on! I mean this in a questionably nice way!

Alanon peeps said last night. Go slow, dont loose your own recovery/healing, keep going to meetings, keep lovingly detatched in case that he slips, but give him a chance to do recovery his own way, and watch for progress.

I will not let him move back in till I see months of progress. I will not jump back in the sack with him right away. I will not loose my friends and family events and meetings,and activities that I do. However, I know I want to give him a shot. Our M is worth it.
TIPPER

Did you tell him this?

Does Alanon suggest this? I do not want to conflict with them.

Hi Tip--just checking in on you.

Your most important thing is self-care here. Alcoholics are all in different stages in their ability to recover. It's day by day or minute by minute, and anything else is an unrealistic expectation.

So is self care. Take it day by day or minute by minute.

You are so worth everything wonderful in life. You are a very good person, and have been very helpful on the board. You are intelligent, and you have a great heart.

I hope you have a really wonderful day.

J3B & Scgtxok:

Thanks for the support and this is defenitly one day at a time.....I tell my H those exact words often. And yes, I have told my H we will wait at least two months to move him back in.I told him I still want to attend alanon and do friend and family gatherings, and he said He is fine with that and he does not want to get in the way of my healing.

So far we have been basically dating for this past week & 1/2. We have done a lot of nice dinners out. He went to trivia night with me (which he hates but I love) and we were around all our old h.s. friends from the past. He even said, he realizes that his drinking is what ruined many of those very friendships and he is glad he is stopping. We went to his parents camp a few days this past week end and attended several of our friends 4th of July parties & watched fireworks & gone for boat rides. And last night we went to a minor leage base ball game. Its been so nice reconnecting.

He has been drinking the Non-alcoholic beer daily (it was his fathers suggestion). He aims to be like his dad - a recovering alcoholic that has a limit of two to three beers a day TOPS! His dad has done this for about 20 years ever since his mom put her foot down. This works for his dad, and I think my H wants the same type of recovery. He is too uncomfortable with the whole A.A. thing.

I am o.k. with his decisions becuase in alanon I have learned to keep the focus on me and that I cant change him or fix him. He is doing this out of his choice of wanting our M to work and that is good enough for me. I have also read in alanon literature that I should not try and manage his sobriety. The alcoholic is the only one that is in charge of that and I am in charge of me.

I know people dont want to see me get hurt by My H again. I respect that. I feel like I am in a different place now, where I realize that I have choices and If I dont think my H is treating me well in the future/or starts drinking heavily again, I can decide to tell him we need distance. I would do it for me if called for, not to punish him. He is glad that I am not being a beer nazi and letting him take this one day at a time.

He has allready seen some great changes in his body, he can eat anything cuz his old food allergies/irratations (with every type of food) have all gone away. He can sleep again. He has more energy and he says he wants to get into new activities rather than waist his life away behind a bar.

I am so happy to see him controlling himself. He has said many times that he doesnt want to loose me, and asks permission to do everything before doing it. I tell him, I am not in control of that, and his choices are his, but to know that I do not want to see him get out of hand like he was-and if he does, he knows I will be gone.

I am so gratefull for alanon and DBing. It has all given me strength to wake him up. I stopped enabling, went dark as I could, used the LRT and GALed my but off as usual. It all worked in my favor of his return.

Now I am still going to alanon, because they say, when an alcoholic is trying to get sober, I will need the program even more, in terms of learning to let go, not to let his attitudes/choices effect me, and focus on me being the best person I can be. They teach you how to love the alcoholic in your life no matter what stage they are at in terms of drinking or being sober. They teach you that you can still have a great life in any circumstance as long as you keep the focus on yourself.

It is all so similar to DBing, I love it. People there have even commented on how far along I have gotten in just a few months of meetings, and I tell them its becuase I have been practicing many of their strategies long before I even found alanon, thanks to the DBing Books/website!!!!!!!!!!!
TIPPER

Update:
Well, H is slipping a bit already. He was at the bar two nights last week while I was at alanon and art night. I told him that his choices are his, and my choice is to not be with him if thats the way he wants to live. I said, I will not put up with those same old habits.

I said what I meant and meant what I said, and I said it nicely.

It took courage for me to say it, but he seemed to understand and I am glad I spoke up instead of just bite my lip(like I used to). He said he would try harder. This next week I will be looking for actions. If I dont see any good changes. I will tell tell him I want more distance. Which I allready have taken some distnace yesterday and today, to show him, its not ok with me.

This is so hard. I hate watching him slip. It puts me in a weird spot. But I am taking care of myself and trying to not let his choices bother me. I am GALing to stay busy and to keep the focus on me. UHHHGG!!! Patience!!!
TIPPER