Today I feel more detached than ever and actually want to be. I've been thinking about the reality before this all started again 2 almost 2 years ago. I wasn't happy at all. I was an angry man hiding from the truth. I said I would post our texversation from today. Now I seek different advice from before. Not on how to save my marriage, but how to protect my interests as we approach divorce proceedings. You're joking, right? I mean this CONFESSION is over wrought, self indulgent and probably assuaged your guilt FAR more than it "helped" your children at all....and as for the legal matters, this was foolish and does nothing to protect you at all. It's incriminating. Period.
M: I told the kids what I did to you. Real healing starts with brutal honesty and genuine forgiveness. Who says? And who says they "need to know ALL the details"? If you are so sure "they knew" already, then you needed to say nothing detailed...
12 step programs say to make amends UNLESS IT WOULD HARM SOMEONE, which is why you don't necessarily go tell your w about a one night stand 20 years ago that meant nothing to you BUT eases your guilt by dumping on her...In my opinion Be, this was a dump by you.
I refuse to leave a legacy of pain for our children and grandchildren. I have wallowed in hurt and anger for too long. I have promised myself I will stand up and lead my family through it's dark days.
You just shoved their faces in it. Wow, I don't get your goal here at all. I mean your real goal, since it's apparent you either don't know your real goal
or it doesn't match up with this behavior OR you are in major denial...
or I don't know what...
STBX: Wow. Don't you think I have some say in conversations about me. Don't you think I have a right to know what my kids know.
She is correct here, absolutely. This was NOT a solo conversation for you to ease YOUR guilt by sharing things with her that might humiliate HER, AND
besides, even if they knew as you claim (which casts major doubts on the value of this "disclosure" anyhow)
I say that you violated her right to privacy. If my h had an affair or raped me or got drunk and hit me
I would want to shield the kids from that OR at least be the one to tell them.
If I am a victim,
LET ME BE THE ONE WHO DECIDES TO SHARE...[u]you are not the aggrieved party, SHE IS...so[/u]
THIS IS ANOTHER VIOLATION OF HER BOUNDARIES BY YOU...don't you see that?
M: They both already knew. So you keep saying.
But having it said out loud, by a parent makes it in their face and confirms the details they likely avoided "knowing".
STBX: They knew something bad happened. D19 overheard something. I hate that you dump that s-it on the. This is why S17 doesn't want to live there. Too much stress and too many conversations.
M: There was no dumping. Again, they knew already. It's about being honest, showing true remorse and asking for forgiveness. I don't agree that it was about that^^^...sorry but I don't buy it.
She's probably right about the "too many conversations" which means YOU talk too much
and you do what YOU think will make YOU feel better under the guise of honesty.
It's inappropriate intimacy. There ARE things kids do not need to know.
STBX: Because it's all about you. My children are not the ones who need to be asked forgiveness for what you did to me.
She's right again, and as you have the opportunity here to show her that YOU get it
you blow it again and you argue with her.
You don't validate her feelings.
Remember, SHE is the aggrieved party. NOT YOU, and not, directly, the kids.
Why not apologize to HER and let HER tell them you apologized for the "event"? well Why not?
Oh, b/c YOU wanted to tell them...
to me that smacks of self indulgent behavior I cannot quite fathom.
M: I need to ask their forgiveness for what it did to them though. I don't know that you could ever forgive me or that I will ever forgive myself. The greatest gift you could ever give me is forgiveness for that, but that is not something I can put on my agenda. That can only happen when you are ready.
Oh....So why bother asking??
What a cop out. And another blown opportunity...
STBX: I can not forgive you. Because you rape me over and over with your actions. With your inability to let me go.
M: That is the greatest gift I can give you - your freedom. Then get off the phone and stop sharing things about HER that SHE does NOT want shared...
I know that. If I really love you like I say I do, then loving you would be letting you go. It is the most difficult thing I have ever had to do, but I can find the strength to do it.
STBX: Buy me out of the house. And let me be.
M: Do you have a date you need the money by?
M: I think it's good that I talked to the kids about it, because now they don't have to keep it inside. Why on earth do you keep talking about this nightmare?
OMG...as if they needed it out in the open.
IMO you were way out of line telling them without discussing it with her and getting HER permission first. It's very telling you didn't discuss it with her. To me, it's disrespectful and just about the opposite of all that you claim to feel.
They are the innocent victims of all our mistakes.
"OUR MISTAKES"...what?? You raped her?
That's not a "mistake", it's a crime, and it's not "ours," it's YOURS...
If we had simply honored our marriage vows, their life would be a beautiful one. I can't change the past, but we can all have a better future with no secrets.... Vague and unhelpful...why are you still on the phone with all this justification and pursuit? It sounds preachy...
STBX: I have always done that and always will.
M: Somehow you and I should put aside our anger, hurt and distrust. You really MUST just focus on your own work and not make it a joint venture.
You are in no position to talk about what SHE has to do...seriously...
What little contact we have from now on, just can't be negative--- I want our kids to be able to know how strong our love and bond once was and how special something like that is. So that they never make the mistakes we did. The best way to show them now is to exit gracefully.
STBX: I have tried very hard to do just that. I don't talk about you to our kids. And I tell them we just grew apart. They don't need details. It's not fair to them. Correct on this...she's 100% correct ^^^^
(Truth? she doesn't want them to know of her 9 year affair with OM/Boss - and really either do i)
OH, now I get it....SO REALLY,
THIS IS ABOUT HER SINS?
YOU WANT HER TO "CONFESS" TOO?? good grief...
talk about your "real remorse" and forgiveness....I see something else.
M: But, we didn't really just grow apart - Amen...^^^
or we couldn't have been so close in the months after separation. (when we dated, went on 2 vacations together etc)--- I certainly don't think we just grew apart like others do. But, I do agree they don't need to know all the details. 1) why are you still talking about ^^^^ this??!!!
And
2) it was YOU who gave them the details!
Now you deny that they "need to know all"...which is it?
But I will not hide my wrongs from them. I want them to know I am far from perfect, but that I have learned from my misdeeds and am so truly sorry and will never believe any wrong I did should be condoned or repeated. Just forgiven.
who is forgiving whom? What are you talking about?
No response. "No response"...wait, I don't get it. What on earth were you expecting, and from whom and WHEN? (Maybe you should Be glad you didn't get a response.)
When you told her all this stuff, you expected what?
HER to forgive you, then & there?? That's more than UNreasonable. It's odd.
M: One more thing I need to tell you.
NO, YOU DON'T "NEED TO"....
Just BE different. No more talking...yikes...
I have now realized how much it took for you to invite me to you apt - your safe place for the first time. That one single act took more courage, trust and love than anything I did to try to save us over the last year and a half. It must have taken all you had to reach out lik that. I will always be grateful for that and what that allowed us share in the months after. You CHOSE to love me in that moment, when you were vulnerable and scared. I am not sure I really understand the depth of courage it took, but I will be forever honored and grateful for it. No response. Be grateful you did not get a response. You are mind reading and telling her what she felt and why and what it took HER to do, instead of asking her...
although NOW was NOT the time to be discussig this anyhow. WAY too much for one conversation. How on earth could anyone process all this at once AND
feel forgiving?? (While also saying she can't forgive til she's ready...)
Some people may thinks it's strange for me to say the last part when I know she was continuing her affair with OM/Boss at that time. But..I actually do feel that way. I hate her affair and that she still won't be honest, but at the same time know she was trying in her own misfit way.
THIS ^^^ part is very revealing b/c it's the only thing that shows me WHY you felt compelled to confess all. NOW I GET IT...
This is about YOU throwing down the gauntlet to your w,
by dumping the very personal humiliating event[u] your wife suffered at your hands/u], on your kids
ALL so SHE will confess all....wow.
Wow...lots of typing. Any thoughts?
I hope you will bravely check your true motivations for all this...
Also,
you should say a whole lot less.
Good luck.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hmmmm......if I had any hidden agenda it was trying to give her an opportunity to FINALLY be honest. I guess that will never happen. So your motivation in confessing/dumping extremely personal matters to your kids
was to manipulate a confession out of her? Oh...really loving.
THIS post is more honest than all the lies you told your wife about why you told the kids all of that intensely personal, humiliating info.
As for being attractive to her, I finally don't care if I am attractive to her. It's all about logistics, legal and money now.
If it's about the legal and money, you did yourself no favor with all that info.
It was inappropriate on many levels and won't be looked upon well by a court.
Even if they believe you wanted honesty FROM YOURSELF
(and not from your w which was/is your real goal
AND is controlling and manipulative of you...
and done at such a high cost to your family...NOT noble BTM...)
they'll think it was unhealthy to do it the way you did.
The fact that you did not consult your w about it shows far more than you realize. Now I know why of course.
It's too bad.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25 - You make some very valid points. I don't think I made one thing clear. I was told my a trusted mutual friend that STBX had already told both kids. But...the last time we spoke she said she never told anyone. So, I figured they knew about it and I wanted them to know I was sorry. But...since STBX lied to me about telling them, how could I deal with the issue between myself and them without calling their Mother a liar?
Also, please note that she made up a story like that years before it happened and told lots of people about it at work - where both my kids now work with STBX and OM/Boss. When I discussed it with the kids, D19 said "Mom wouldn't tell me exactly, but I guessed it and she didn't say "no". And that trusted mutual friend told me STBX directly told S17 the day that he and I got into the big argument that led to the truth about STBX and OM being openly together.
Our whole world is filled with so much distrust and lies that it's impossible to know what is the right thing to do. STBX will NEVER be honest with me - even with something as important as what the kids know about that horrible night.
You said I blew an opportunity to validate her feelings, I agree, but I am just not there anymore. I realize just how poisonous our relationship has become and how much anger and resentment I have for her 9 year affair. It is best for all of us to just end this. It is a shame considering what we once had, but we have nothing like that at all anymore. Just hurt and anger.
you're still justifying not discussing it with her
and getting bogged down in who knew what and when...
clearly you gave details they lacked...
AND that's all minutia compared to the big picture here.
Unless you use the word "rape" loosely (which definitely hurts you to write down, legally)
fyi
you are confessing to a FELONY,
and
If you are using the word correctly, I don't give a cr@P about what she said, or to whom, OR if she had an affair. Rape is grounds for divorce AND jail time... Your endless focus on her affair means you still don't get it!! You are STILL making this about wanting her to confess her affair.
It pales in comparison to rape.
It's not on the same planet.
And you told the kids the details b/c you wanted your wife to confess her A.
You admit this.
So virtually NONE of what you said to us in that lengthy defensive dumping to your kids
was for a loving reason. NONE OF IT...it was all manipulation.
The two largest issues are
1) the rape itself and 2) the lie you tell yourself and your wife and others, about your motivation.
You have some tough inner work to do, and I don't envy you.
But if you cannot examine YOUR behavior and YOUR motivations for it, you will relive this and lose a lot more than you already have.
How can your kids see you in the same light with all your blurting out of your insecurites/fears and past anger....and crime...?? That just wasn't appropriate on any level.
the 12 steppers call it "inappropriately intimacy" for a reason. Saying something out loud so they HAVE to react,
is not nearly as benign as you say. And you did not have the righ to tell them. I know you won't see this. You are still justifying/rationalizing and focussing on the wrong things.
PLEASE DO NOT talk about genuine true remorse or honesty.
REAL REMORSE means NO strings are attached to that,
and no results are desired except the desire for absolution from God.
You did not have genuine real remorse. It was regret with an ulterior motive,
and some or all of the regret was b/c on your scorecard, you knew she had a big fat "winning" point.
Your admitted goal was about what SHE would confess
and that is NOT genuine spiritual remorse about your own failings.
As for Honesty. I hope you see now how much your post lacked. I wonder if you are honest with yourself. Do you have a c? A minister?
IF so, discuss things with him/her BEFORE you do more damage
Like I said, I don't envy you. But you have only scratched the surface of your own part in this. Worse, you worsen things now, today and you don't see that.
Inflicting pain on someone in the past takes a lot of work to overcome, spiritually.
Don't keep making it worse with your actions today.
Keep doing the REAL WORK (solely on YOU & YOUR Life) and get well. Good luck.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thanks 25. I do use the term "rape" somewhat loosely, but legally and most importantly, in my mind and heart and in hers, it was rape. I do have a counselor and it is one of the first things I ever told him about. I remember saying "I don't want to be the kind of person that does that". I have a session tomorrow and will definitely focus on this issue and how I can overcome it. Not truly dealing with it, is not allowing me to heal and do the right things.
I agree it is absolutely cause for divorce. I can't believe STBX actually gave me any chance at reconcilation after. I really have screwed things up about as much as one person can. I don't know if I will ever get over the guilt and shame I feel for everything I have done. I do know that I actually have more than I deserve. I could be in prison, without my kids, without my home and with an ex wife who wants to destroy me.
For what it's worth I will say not only are you not there you are in denial.
I am not here to issue 2x4's BTM. I know the agony one feels in these sitch's and the point of desperation one can reach in these times.
However desperation of losing someone is no reason to throw reasoning to the wind and your own dignity. There were night I wanted to pick up the phone and call my W and just scream at her days I wanted to cry and days I wanted to tell her how much I loved her.
I did, in my journal. I wrote it down. Never to her. Not because I was DBing but because it served no purpose other than to satisfy myself. Sure I did a few times early on but you know what? I felt good for about 24hrs then I felt worse.
Telling your kids?
I think it was a terrible idea. I will leave it at that.
The human thing is to want to blame the cheater and heap all your emotions on to them. While this may help you feel better, it won’t help you rebuild your relationship or your self respect. You need to put away blame and move past it.
Everything you do, say, think, is tied to your W and while you are doing this you will be swimming in the same circle of hurt, anger, and agony.
When you are not riding your emotional 'high' go back and read that exchange.
I think you will see why you got the reaction you did.
2Step - I see you as one of the most amazing posters here, so I will really take your words to heart, like those of 25. I have read the exchange over and over and now I see just how maniupulative it was. I am even starting to understand why STBX says I was controlling in our marriage when I felt I wasnt.
All these years later, and I still have not really changed. I have only made surface changes that I thought I needed. Not the ones I really truly needed to make. I have so far to go yet.
I will share a texversation from today. I actually did something just for her today and sent her financial details now rather than waiting, like I intended to do - just for control.
M: Good morning. I just emailed financial stuff to your AOL address.
STBX: (after reading email) - Yesterday you said September (to finalize everything). Now it's end of oct and that likely means more like the end of the year.
M: It could work by September - if the house is valued a little higher. It can definitely be befoe the end of the year. Right now I just need to know if the overall concept and amounts work for you.
STBX: Yes.
M: Ok. I will do my best to make things go quickly as possible because I understand it will bring closure to you and all of us to have the divorce finalized. I'm glad we are not arguing over money like others do. Enjoy your day.
Well.....I think that exchange was decent. I am going to see family doctor today and get sleeping pills and ask about going back on anti-depressant. I haven't taken a sleeping pill in a while, but need them occasionally and likely will when I visit my friend in Calgary next week. I was on a version of Prozac for a very short time just before the separation, but took myself off it. I think I need it now to calm my mind and help me act from reasoning rather than emotions.
2Step - I see you as one of the most amazing posters here, so I will really take your words to heart, like those of 25.
I will assume that my input here is not welcome, BTM, and wish you well. You're getting great advice; I pray you'll listen and apply it.
Starsky
Not all Starsky. I simply referred to those 2 individuals since they were the last posters and I have followed 2Steps own thread. I obviously need all the help I can get. It's been six years since I first came here and almost 43 years of getting it wrong. I do need to listen.
because I understand it will bring closure to you and all of us to have the divorce finalized. I'm glad we are not arguing over money like others do.
But it is just a small thing.
Quote:
All these years later, and I still have not really changed. I have only made surface changes that I thought I needed. Not the ones I really truly needed to make. I have so far to go yet.
I believe real change can only occur when several things happen.
1. You are honest with yourself
2. You forgive yourself
3. You let go completely
4. You put love in your heart and accept things for what they are without blame or guilt
5. You seek first to understand, and then to be understood
