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Interesting evening.

W texted me and called me about some paperwork re: her getting off of the lease. She wanted to drop it off this evening. I opted to to go to a movie instead of get back to her right away. It kind of feels like playing a game, but I have been meaning to get out of the house a couple nights a week anyways.

If she wonders what I'm up to, great. If not, that's ok too.

W ended up leaving an envelope in the door with some paperwork re: the apartment, and a note about some other stuff. I'm not sure why she needed to do this TONIGHT since in her e-mail she wanted to do it tomorrow, but what can you do?

I guess I feel a pang of sadness that she is officially being removed from the lease, but I guess that's ok.

I miss her terribly sometimes, and I've been trying to work on my attitude regarding her. Its easy to reframe her as the person she is choosing to be now and find all the ugly in that person, and notice how superficial and hollow they seem.

BUT this won't make me feel better, it makes me mourn the person I thought I married. It honestly hurts to feel like so much of what I thought i knew was an illusion. And, its hard for me NOT to express that to her. So, I've been trying to think about the things that I believe are authentic and true to her, things that I always loved and got a kick out of. I figure that the better my attitude is the less of a jerk I risk being when I deal with her. It's just hard because I feel like so much of it was just a trick - she even said "I was never really myself around you" which I can't help but wonder - why NOT!?!? A lot of the superficial and social veneer stuff was exactly the stuff I looked past when I fell in love with her.

It was her passion for nature, pumpkins, trees, painting, great art, good food, kindness, fall leaves, picking apples, eating strawberries off the plant.. those are the things that I remember and think of her smiling and really seeming so happy.

Its hard not to wonder if that too, was just another costume she was wearing at the time. But its how I am trying to choose to think about her. Am I CRAZY to do that?

Tough morning -

Find my thought being more consumed w/ W stuff today. I don't know why - but I really need to find other things to focus on.

It is hard to balance my recognition that the old M we had was pretty dysfunctional with

W has said that I didn't feel like it mattered if she loved me or not. What I meant was "in love" but I guess that distinction wasn't clear to her. My feeling is that after almost 10 years, you need to make a conscious decision to create 'love' in the more active sense of the word. I didn't necessarily have this perspective when the issue came up a year ago or so - I had the distinction, but I wasn't really aware of the possibilities and need to 'work' on it.

I Really don't know if this is something to communicate to her or if i should keep it in my heart and mind. If I should, I obviously need to put it in a way that doesn't make her defensive. How can I acknowledge or communicate the evolution of my views without being pursuing or pleading? Is it even productive to do so?

At this point, I feel like one goal i have is to be much better at resolving conflict in a meaningful way. By which I mean, really listening, understanding, and being more thoughtful and less 'clever'. I think right now this means asking a lot of questions, listening completely, speaking with simple words and short simple sentences, and keeping my reactivity in check.

Another goal I have is for it to be clear that I am not a stubborn jerk. I think the above stuff applies to this as well.

BUT - another issue is my 'doormat' behavior. W complained in MC that my being willing to stay w/ her after her A was me being a pushover. So, I'm looking for a way to be fair but also assertive of my needs and wants when its appropriate. So far its not too easy - I find that being firm about things like the status of our 'friendship', her cat, the fact that I may indeed request spousal support, all really make her upset, and it tears my heart to hear her cry even if she might be doing it to manipulate my emotions.

I would appreciate any feedback on any of this stuff or anything else in my thread. There are so many good and different perspectives and viewpoints on this, and I'm really just beginning a lot of this journey right now.

I wonder if my thread's title isn't dramatic enough...

Had another 45+ minute conversation this afternoon. It was again, challenging but honest.

I told W I appreciate her courage in being honest with me w/o knowing how I'm going to respond - she replied "Well I have nothing to lose anymore" I asked her if thats how she tends to view relationships with people.

Lots of other stuff, I'll need to update later.. got to go run a couple errands/get out of the house.

I think your title is compelling enough.

What I do see is a lot of journaling and that's great to get it out there.

I suspect no one's jumping in here and making comment because... well... you don't really seem stuck atm... you don't really have any things that you'd like to bounce ideas off...

I do also suspect that soon enough, you're going to run out of things to put into the journal... find yourself going round and round in circles and then you'll start to wonder, start to get stuck, start to ask questions, and others will chime in...

what are you providing is good stuff. certainly gives everyone a well fleshed out idea of how you think and your side of where you are coming from.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe I'll start the ball rolling...

What are you doing to GAL? What are some 180s you plan on doing? What are you doing for yourself? How are you working on becoming the man only a fool would leave?

Hi Kaffe Diem,

Thanks for jumping in. I really do appreciate it. I guess I don't know if I'm stuck or not. In many ways, I feel like the 37 guidelines that I see cited frequently encourages me to continue some of the behavior I was engaging in. MWD suggests that many couples don't spend enough time together. I think it was the opposite in our case -- too much time together. Because of our career stuff, we would spend a lot of time around each other without much else going on. Our communication was never direct - after working w/ therapist I started to engage more directly and I think this really upset W. W seems to really struggle with expressing or experiencing Anger and I didn't do anything to make it safer for her to express that anger. I feel like it is making it impossible for her to get unstuck from where she is now. She feels more comfortable castigating herself tan she does expressing the anger towards me that she probably rightfully feels - I know I'm not a mind reader, but its a logical thing to conclude.

In terms of GAL - that is, in and of itself a big 180 for me. Because of my depression/burnout/moving around every year since we have been married I really found myself not doing much of anything other than being anxious or hanging out with W. I have always been a bit more of an introvert, but I was basically just contracting from life for the past couple of years.

Another big thing is my relationship with my family - when I first sought therapy, my connection w/ my siblings would best be described as 'like cousins.' That has changed a lot, and I have grown much more close w/ my family in terms of trusting them w/ a side of me that I had largely shut off for a long time, replacing with anger.

I am making it a point to get out a couple of nights a week to grab a drink with friends, or go to a movie, or just

I am spending time at a coffee shop everyday - for me this is important as I used to just stay home all day unless I had to be somewhere. I'm going to people watch and just be around other human beings. I spend a lot of time writing and working on my self-talk while I'm there.

I am making it a point to get out for a walk at least 6 days a week. This is good for my health, and I find that mind clears up a lot when I do it.

I am signing up for yoga classes that start next week - I am excited about this - it will be great to be around other people and it will be great to really dig deeper into it.

Considering taking a beginners drawing class - I don't know anything about it, and its some $ but fortunately I am in an okay position as far as needing money and stuff goes for the moment. I used to love to draw(poorly) - actually first 'date' with wife was because she noticed me drawing at the coffee shop she worked at and invited me to come over to her friends.

180s - I feel like these are easy for me, many of them I was already starting along when W left me. Probably the biggest is that I am strongly examining the career path I've been on and starting to look at other options. Since I started grad school, I let myself get very myopic about what I wanted to do for a career and would get upset if people even suggested other things. W was always very uncomfortable talking about this with me (we were on very similar tracks in grad school, but her career has blossomed while mine has actually gotten progressively more wilted). A lot of this has to do with my anxiety issues and how those prevented me from doing the things I needed to be doing to be successful. A lot has to do with the mindset I allowed myself to adopt when we first got out of grad school - very fixed and very preoccupied with 'being good' rather than 'getting better and learning'. At this point, I'm fully cognizant of that and so my mindset itself is a 180!

Now - I'm beginning to feel like there are probably plenty of options that would be engaging, I could do well, and would pay a decent amount. I'm a Creative Social Realist if you ask the online quiz I took. It is scary and a little painful to think about closing the door on something I've been pursuing and sacrificing for for so long, but I'm also aware of the possibility that I might find something even better for me.

As I've mentioned I have been guilty of intellectually overwhelming W when she would talk about things. I am being very conscious about this behavior and feel like I am probably doing about.. a 160 on this one right now. If I feel like arguing, I shut up or just acknowledge that her feelings are real and valid. I still struggle with it, as I do want her to see things differently, but as my mom pointed out to me today, right now she probably isn't capable of doing that so I should probably let her move through her own emotions without interfering.

I tend to have a tough time 'letting go' of things and can be a bit of a bulldog. So, I'm working on that. I will explain more this evening, but I am really trying to shift my focus to let go of anger faster, to let go of stress, to keep my energy on the things that are right with people (like my W) rather than on what they did wrong to me.

I am a lot more responsible for my words now - when I say something sarcastic or hurtful when I realize it I apologize for it directly and without any justification. This is something I didn't do very well at one point.

Seeking therapy was a huge 180 for me - I had resisted the notion of seeking help for my acute anxiety for over a year and never really acknowledged the burnout stuff over the past 13 years or so. Because it came in waves, there were always periods of temporary relief which took the focus off of it and put it onto seeking some kind of thing outside myself that was going to give me the sense of self-validation that I needed to provide for myself in the first place.

Reaching out to friends to friends is a 180 for me. I have relied on W to make about 99% of our plans over the past 4 years and so the fact that I am planning to go out and see people is a positive and different thing for me. I like to do it on my own terms but I am happy to be doing it.

I am taking a lot better care of the apartment since W left. this was always an issue - she came from a military household and they were obsessive about cleaning (well, obsessive to me). I am not obsessive and never will be - its just not as important to me - but I think I resisted how frequently W would clean because I felt like it was unhealthy and stemmed from some kind of neurosis or feeling of inadequacy whenever the place wasn't spotless. So, i am trying to clean the place up a little every day and make sure to vacuum and sweep at least 1x a week.

I am taking a little bit better care w/ my appearance - not trying to look like anyone else, but just considering a little bit more how i want to present myself to the world around me. Does this make sense? I have always been a laid back person and really don't fixate on looks - not a slob (my career required me to own 3 tuxes...) but definitely not vain or obsessed w/ some ephemeral definition of style.

In terms of being the man only a fool would leave - I feel like a lot of those 180s would fall into that. I am continuing to work on my own self-esteem and fundamental confidence. I am definitely learning to be more assertive while keeping others needs in mind, too. I feel like this question is interesting, because don't we ultimately need to become the best in ourselves? Whether a fool might leave us or not, do we not owe it to ourselves to grow and thrive?

Alright - I said I'd update this last night, but I was too tired to write it out.

Yesterday W both stopped by and called while I was in the shower. I had no idea she was going to come by so I missed it and called her back. It was regarding her being removed from the lease and some info on her cat's shots. I told her that I would take responsibility for dropping off the paperwork @ the landlords, and e-mail her cat's vet record info - both of which i did within 12 hours.

We ended up having another 45 minute conversation. Again, challenging but felt more honest than it's been in a while (like, 1+ years).

I told her I have been wondering why she says "I don't hate you.. I don't wish you any ill.." She said that she says that because she still feels like she really likes me a lot, and that I am a great guy but she doesn't want to be married to me. I told her I wondered if she actually does have a part of her that hates me or is really angry with me, as I could see why she would be justified to feel that way about a lot of things over the past few years. She said that she does have a lot of anger. I let her know that I felt she had a lot of good reasons for her anger and if she ever needs to express it towards me I understand. She said she didn't feel like it would be appropriate and I said alright.

** This anger thing is kind of an interesting topic for me -- she has always had a lot of trouble expressing herself directly towards whomever she is upset with, and tends to internalize it and make herself into a victim. Many times I've been the 3rd party to which she expresses her victimization. Its really interesting to me to consider that perhaps she is sort of stuck in a place of being uncomfortable acknowledging and moving through her anger and into a higher emotional state. I'm sure its more 3 dimensional than that, but I think there may be something to this understanding.**

Along similar lines, we did talk about some of the ways in which I was very contrarian and defensive when she would make attempts to communicate to me in the past. I acknowledged this and said that I know that the way I argued with her in the past had made her feel intellectually overwhelmed and was hurtful, and that I regretted it as it doesn't really represent the kind of man I want to be.

I did tell her that by saying 'my mom says you...' completely took away her unique power as my S to express herself to me. She said that she did that because that way she could blame her mother rather than risk me being angry with her. She said the things she was saying were coming from her but she didn't want to say them directly. I told her I appreciated her honesty about this.

She says she feels worried or expects that I want to lash out at her. I told her that no, I don't want that at all. I want the opposite. I told her that I am trying to see her for the parts that I believe are real - I brought up some examples of this: her love of trees, animals, fall, apple picking, modern art. To me, these are memories and thoughts that seem to be much closer what I believe are 'essential' elements of who she is. This seemed to really upset her - she didn't say anything for a while. She said those things are real. Then she said that this was really difficult and hard for her. I asked her why she was choosing something that was making her life harder - I didn't see that any of the problems we have had are insurmountable. She said thats true, but it takes two people who are willing to work on a marriage, and she isn't willing. I said that is up to her. She said that she felt like it needed to happen and that she was just tolerating me while finding happiness elsewhere for the past year. I asked her if there was ever a time when that wasn't the case, where she was happy about being married to me and wanted to create a life together. She said yes, and felt like when we got married there was a lot of potential there. I didn't dig further on this one. I'd love to hear any viewpoint on it that someone might have.

She said something about how she knows I'm trying to get my life together and figure out what I want to do with myself, and how she wants to help me and support me in doing that. I told her that by divorcing me, she is kind of doing the opposite of that.

She seems to be becoming more aware of the fact that the dysfunction in our marriage was a team effort and that she was relying on me in many ways to make her feel good about herself and she used the word codependence, which I agreed was an appropriate description (although I'd rather not pathologize things in that way). I think that in many ways I did the same thing - looking for her to validate me as i felt pretty worthless for a long time. She has expressed how she is really working on worrying less about what people think of her.

She said she still hasn't forgiven herself for what she did. I told her I hope she can find a way to do that.

She said she was concerned about giving me mixed signals by having this conversation - I told her that I was just responding to what she was saying, and wasn't reading into it. I did mention that, on the topic of mixed signals, that I felt like she had gotten the idea that I would never forgive her for what she did and it would be held over her head forever - I told her that absolutely wasn't the case and I believe forgiveness is a vital part of a happy life. I believe this is true, but I also believe that a big part of why she chose to leave is because she feels like she would never be forgiven.

Somehow the question of 'best friends' came up again. I did say that I had felt that our friendship would have been the foundation we would have rebuilt our marriage on.

We talked about some other stuff - she feels like people are basically cutting her off as a friend because of what she is doing, and that it is something she feels like she needs to accept as a consequence of what she has done. I did start to wander into 'fixer' territory here but backed off after saying "well I don't know if thats what person X really meant.."

Towards the end of the conversation I told her "I don't know if you feel the same way, but I feel like these conversations, although challenging, have been more honest than anything we've said to each other in the past 1.5 years. She agreed. I then told her that I appreciated her courage and recognized how hard it might be for her to be truthful without any guarantee of how I might respond to her. She said "well it's not like i have anything to lose." i asked her if that's how she views all her relationships with people. Not sure that was the best question..

At some point I did say something like "I guess maybe we just have different values - I think that 10 years of relationship deserves a little work before giving up" - it was manipulative of me, but in a way it does reflect some of my feelings, that things are worth working for and there is nothing wrong with trying to do better. I just don't know what to say - I do feel like it does deserve more than just saying "the tank is empty, I give up!!"

There was a lot of good that came out of it - did I probably break a lot of DB 'rules'? Maybe. I don't know.

I am actually very happy to see her (apparently) developing some insight into what was really going on and perhaps even developing a more grounded sense of self in her individual work. Despite it all, I do love her and I am happy to see her thoughts and thinking evolving into something a little more substantial - it feels to me like perhaps a layer or two of that personality onion might have been peeled back. Perhaps there may be a time when fear and hurt don't dominate and we can even resolve something. I worry about developing false hope.

But. BUT. I still have to remember that she is Divorcing me and right now is processing the possibility that she may have to pay spousal support - something she I assumed I would not ask for - which will cost her a fair chunk of change. The fact that we have talked more in the past week than we have in the past 1.5 months may be reflective of her desire to gain sympathy. I don't know, but I'm cautious.

Pretty uneventful day. W e-mailed me back thanking me for info.

Did some work on a couple projects but have been finding myself procrastinating and getting pulled into my thoughts a lot the past week.

Hip has been bugging me, so i had to roll it back a little on the yoga and exercise.

Not a whole lot else going on - I haven't bothered to make any plans for the 4th. Maybe I'll throw something up on facebook tomorrow and see if anyone is around. I'm good with being by myself, so maybe I'll just go out see whats going on.

I read your first few pages, and don't have time to read the rest so I don't know where you're at with things right now, but I appreciate your replies to my posts -

It's funny, I always observe in new situations I read about on here a person who really wants to try and another person who really just wants to behave badly. And then I imagine two people trying - why aren't there ever two people trying? How do we end up with these folks?

But I wonder though - having listened to so much of Abraham-Hicks, if these folks are really mirrors to a lot of our feelings - like what do you have "active" in you and your vibration that is allowing you to feel like this/

Those are the questions I'm asking myself right now - wanting what I want but not worrying about how I'm going to get it (from point a to b) - but just feeling good, taking care of myself, and worrying about me - and then kind of "allowing" the rest to fall into place - cause it will - as long as you keep feeling good.

Instead of lying in bed in the morning wondering what could have been or doing all that - lie in bed and set your intentions - imagine some really good things - and wrap yourself in love. Find gratitude and appreciation in what you can, then get up and start your day.

I try to do this and it makes a difference.

Anyway, I wish I could read/say more, but time is limited round here lately.

Here's a few links I want to share with you about SOs "changing their minds":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTE-kL54rw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I-w_hHDKxY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFA_QdH5QmE&feature=related

Thanks for chiming in, Lilagirl!



Here are some that spring to mind:

Low sense of self-worth. Lack of authentic connection w/ much of my core. Internalized sense of inadequacy. Fears of rejection and abandonment.

All of these things are in my consciousness, now, as habits of thought that I have engaged in, and have a choice to move beyond and 'break old agreements.'

I forget where, but I read this "You can only have a relationship as good as the one you are willing to lose." I take that to mean that if you are scared to really open up and be honest w/ your partner on a certain level, that is the level the relationship is going to stay at.

An interesting derivation of this is, "you can only have the relationship with yourself as good as the one you are willing to have". In being really honest w/ yourself, there can be some stuff that is unpleasant, but if you go through it - there's a good payoff.



The first therapist I saw said something that registered deeply for me: Happiness is Fleeting, Contentment runs a lot deeper. I'm paraphrasing that and I will say more about this in a separate post, but I think it helps me to keep it in mind.




Yes - i agree with this, although in practice I still struggle with it. I was doing well for a while but w/o much that I 'need' to do (many people have an institutional obligation to be somewhere.. I have to figure these things out for myself every day) I often get stuck.