Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers WAW, and a bisexual open marriage part 2

Kettricken
I understand how contradictory this is. Lately though I have come to understand how ingrained this bi thing is for her. It's something she feels she has no control over. I can also tell she wants to be loved for who she is. Last nights conversation made this perfectly clear. After 3 months I think no amount of DB will change that. She is attracted to both men and women. The issue in question now is whether she can be monogamous. The answer in her mind right now is NO.

That being said how many times have we heard WAW's say this? I'm sure this phrase is familiar:

"afterall this I don't think I can stay married to one person, I need my freedom!!"

We all know that all the sweet talking in the world will not dissuade these women. They need to choose for themselves to remain monogamous. I've seen plenty of threads were the WAW's keep going to OP's despite promising to stay faithful during the LRT. That's because they were forced or pressured into monogamy. I will not do that to my W. I want her to freely choose me.

Last night was kind of a positive step, because at least she willingly and lovingly committed to no OM's. After talking about it we came to the conclusion that having members of the opposite sex was not worth the strain and risk it would put on our marriage. I'm hoping the same will happen with OW's. Hopefully before she follow through.

Speaking of following through.....

I also suspect that she may not follow through... (well maybe it's more praying). I'm hoping that the idea is more enticing than actually going through with it. I know her well enough to know that it is important to her that I take her seriously, even if she ends up changing her mind.

I still think she has not completely made up her mind. She needs to find out where she stands. Once she knows we can proceed.

Both times she left and we were separated, she made sure to stress that she was free, and could pursue OP's if she wanted. As far as I know she never did. I know she must have had her reasons. I'm hoping that happens again.

As a wise old vet around here used to say, "Hope isn't a plan."


Starsky

25
Well the penthouse fantasy got shot down last night, when she expressed that in hindsight she could not handle seeing me with other women. So rest assured that's not my reason.

As for her not getting her feelings involved, we have discussed this at length and she is adamant that what she wants is purely physical. Has that made me feel better? Absolutely not. She can promise till her head turns blue that she won't get her feelings involved, but I think we both know she herself doesn't even know that. It's funny because she got seriously upset when I used the word girlfriend to describe a possible OW for me.

She seems to think she can separate her feelings, and insists this is purely physical.

As for being left alone there is probably a huge component of truth. Yet in my severely screwed up ahead I know that almost no matter what I do I run the risk of losing her.

I could lose her to an OP, because of an open marriage.

I could draw the lines, watch her leave again and lose her.

I could draw the lines watch her leave, she comes back, knowing full well that she had OP's. I'm supposed to forgive her then right? Or just push her away and lose her.

I could go back to the begging and the pleading....watch her leave in disgust with my self worth.

I could let her decide how far she is willing to take this. From there I could say enough is enough and lose her.

I could let her do her thing and find out I'm ok with it. As many have stated this is still losing her.

Or the current plan:

Let her do her thing with the hopes that once faced with the reality of actually going though with it she realizes it's not for her.

25 you did a good job pointing out how delusional this last course of action is, but what else do I have?

So yeah I'm clinging to a small hope but what else do I have. Nothing.

Call it self defeating but I can't save this marriage. I can choose to end it, that's all I have. Only she can choose to save this, all I can do is set up the conditions for it to look attractive for her to save this, and wait to see if she is willing to do it.

I can see you don't understand boundaries, BG90, or "N.U.T.S."

To me, that's the beauty of boundaries, or -- as I have heard someone else call them -- "My Boundaries of Personal Integrity." Only YOU know what they are, but they should be a very short list; your "dealbreakers," as it were . . . those things that you, as a person with your values, morals and ethics, simply CANNOT ABIDE.

And this is how it works, in practical application: If you decide that "I will not live in an open marriage," and you state that as a boundary to a cheating spouse, and if that drives them away from you, and toward the other person? Well, then that's THEIR CHOICE, and them cheating -- and staying with me -- wasn't an option for me anyway, based on my own authenticity and values, so what have I lost?

All I've lost in that instance is something that I could not have abided anyway.

"You must choose between her or me" is an ULTIMATUM. It's about THEM.

Boundaries should be about YOU -- "I will not live in an open marriage." It's then up to the other person to decide what to DO with that information you've now conveyed to them so earnestly.


Starsky

First, actions are more important than words in my opinion. I see your wife as a frightened woman not sure of what she wants and trying to put herself in bad situations that will challenger her to expose her inner feelings. I almost view her as a rebelious teenager, even though she is much older than that. You have said she is having an MLC.

You are right that she needs to freely choose you, that she needs to choose monogomy. You have said that you have freely chosen her and monogomy. Provide her with a role model on that.

Which is why you need to continue on GAL and taking care of yourself and growing yourself. You really need to set up a plan for yourself with a timetable for her to figure things out. You "need" at some point certainty in your life. My suggestion would be somewhere between 8 months and 18 months depending on if she is in counseling with you or not. If she is in counseling I would give her more time (although she will probably need less time).

Having said the above, I am unsure of the advice to give you. Please talk to your IC and listen to as many others as you can, before you decide what to do. I really don't have the answers, just thoughts of what I might do.

I think that your having told her that you will be jealous if she has another sexual partner, even if it is a woman is fine. It was honest.

Maybe even a boundary would be good for you to set. However, understand that any boundary you set may be challenged, and if so, you need to follow through. So don't set boundaries that you are not willing to enforce. Don't challenge her or try to manipulate her.

I think that you could tell her that you understand she is having questions about sexual orientation and whether she wants to settle down with a woman or a man. Such situations are not unique, but usually they happen before a woman marries a man and not afterwards.

I think that you could tell her that you love her and care about her happiness and well being, that is why you have tried to be supportive and given her some space to try to figure her needs out.

I also think that you can tell her that you have discovered the past few months that ultimately she will need to decide on whether she is willing to commit to a monogomous relationship with you and only you. Since you are her husband, you feel that you deserve her exclusive love and are willing to work hard at making her feel loved. However, you also know that you will not be able to give her an indefinate amount of time to figure out what she needs.

Insist that the two of you get counseling and that it must be from a sex therapist so she can discuss her bisexual feelings and you can express your concerns about what she is doing.

I would tell her that the reason you insist on the counseling is that you are concerned about her long term happiness and don't want her to potentially destroy her marriage while figuring our her own sexual orientation.

If she does confess to a lesbian affair, thank her for being honest with you. Tell her that you are deeply hurt, if you are. I would also say that the two of you need joint counseling for you to figure out if you can overcome the pain she has caused you and you also need help in better understanding the pain you must have caused her.

If she does confess to a lesbian affair, and it were me, I would set other boundaries besides immediate joint counseling. They would include no sex until she gets two complete tests for STD's a couple months apart. County Health website on lesbian/bisexual women STD info

I would also make sure that there is no way you could accidently get her pregnant no matter what she says or does. I would insist that any sex with her after the tests come in are protected sex that is designed to prevent a pregnancy.

I applaud your progress. I felt that you were making her feel loved and that she was making progress in figuring out her sexual orientation. Your latest post calls that into question.

Hopefully it is short lived backsliding and she will come back having done nothing, feeling guilty and working on getting her head straightened out. It could even be a test by her based on the short time before your move.

Ultimately, though the marriage wiil fail or rebuilt based on her willingness to change the way she acts. You need to be mentally and emotionally prepared for whichever path she chooses. Again, that is why GAL is so very important.

Good luck to you.

GB,

Make no mistake, I think there's a chance to save your m. Not a huge one, but a chance. But not with your "plan" of hope and change... (I don't give out percentages since I gave my own m a 10% chance of lasting.)

But imo, your "PLAN" is almost guaranteed to prolong your agony, AND will only end in divorce anyhow...

let's say there IS a chance to turn this around...

how? By letting her face the loss of you...really.

Only then, might she awaken to the idea that giving up other men/women is worth it

b/c losing you, is too much to bear.

In truth, many of us will admit that now & then, we'd like to flirt or...more...or spend too much, buy ourselves expensive gifts, ignore our kids for the evening b/c we feel like watching an adult film, or we want to try some illegal drugs, or go out all night with friends and not come home til 5 days later AND not get in trouble when we finally come home...but we don't.

We all have selfish parts to us, but we contain them. We "sacrifice" those selfish parts in exchange for the benefits of keeping our promises and vows and having healthy R's in our life. Not to mention the dangers of the behaviors...or an inner moral compass.

We're adults. We live like adults by choosing like adults.

Life has trade offs. If you order steak, you don't get the shrimp. You picked steak. You don't whine & blame for the rest of the dinner, about having to get ONLY steak...


Your w wants it all.

You seem willing to give it to her, in the "HOPE" that she will give it all up
[b]
to GAIN WHAT SHE ALREADY HAS....YOU.

Can you see why this seems backwards to me?

YAH, when you said he "might want to set a boundary", that's the understatement of the year.

Every m has boundaries, most of which you don't have to spell out b/c we all get them. In Your m, the boundaries seem to be like this--

You can't leave the lights on,

and she can't stab you.

You cannot have sex with OPs (since you don't want it with OMs, and she won't allow you to have it with OWs, you will be monogamous and she won't..

Your plan?

If and when you use some innocent OW for sex, and somehow you don't become at all emotionally involved...and somehow that's alright with OW...

is that supposed to get w back?

My suggestion to get her back is to plan on a move by yourself, and let her panic/fume/stomp and go apoplectic...

let her scream that she does not trust you again!!! You "lied".... (it's almost comedic for her to use that term, given the situation. So crazy). Don't tolerate it. Demand some sane respect.


I'd separate, and move on. (NOT = Giving up)

I'd swim to the other shore, knowing that if she wants the m enough, she'll swim to you when she's clear.

I would not want her back unless and until she's clear. No more guessing what she might want/say/do...She'd tell you and she'll get there. IF your future conversations convince you that she is committed, you can pay for her to join you.

I'd let her wonder like crazy about what you are doing and I would NOT tell her, as she wants ultimate freedom (which you are to finance and provide emotional support for, as well-that is doormat and cake eater galore. I mean you will be subsidizing her adultery. I do not care about her sexual orientation b/c I simply don't think she needs to act on it

But she's acting as if you are her dad, suppressing Her natural inclination in a matter having nothing to do with you...She's amazingly insensitive to what that does to a man. Does she hate her dad?

Whatever... she wants her freedom AND doesn't think it's so fun to share it with you.

Now it's time to give her all the rope she said she wants..

But not with you around. [b]NOT at your expense. It's too painful and unfair and It's so enabling. You really will be making things worse.

[/b]I played softball fof 12 years and in college/scholarship.

So, yes I know some gay women...and some women who thought they were gay/bisexual. They were definitely attracted to at least SOME other women. And They got labelled as "gay" and they dated OWs....

I sometimes wondered if a few of them were prematurely labelled (b/c I knew these girls all my life, and many of them had crushes on boys when younger).. One, "BC" had dated guys happily. Then met a cute girl on the team we all kind of admired--very pretty and very funny and they had a gay R for a couple years as far as I know. They called themselves gay but BC was only a teen.

It wasn't my business and I was no expert.

But At the 10 year HS reunion I saw "BC" and she was with a husband and had 2 kids. She said, "turns out I'm not so gay"...So there is some choice for some people. You know your w is attracted to men, even if also to women. You are not asking her to deny her sexuality. You are setting normal healthy boundaries.

25
Deep inside I know you are right, but I'm not going to lie in saying that I am not afraid of totally losing her if I leave without her. I signed up for an extra risky assignment to get us there..... Going without her seems like such a waste.... Ridiculous I know.... Furthermore I'm not sure if I have the ba!!s to break it off. If we were staying in the states i would have done it already. I didn't have the guts to stick to it three times. Not sure how I will react with being so close to leaving.

That being said cutting it off now would take away her opportunity to change her mind at the last minute. It's a long shot, but I want to see if she can really go through with it. At the very least if she goes through maybe i'll finally have the conviction to end this. I could easily say: "tried it, hated it, good bye unless you can committ. "

I know if we separate she'll leave out of spite and find OP's. (although I would suspect she would do this more out of anger than anything.) So I've rationezed that at least when it comes to her choices there is nothing I can do. If she's going to do it she will.

That being said the topic of her "date" on Saturday, has not been touched in over 24 hours. I am trying to tailor my actions so she understands that while she has permission, I am having a very hard time accepting it. I even told her verbally, and made it very clear that her actions were hurting me. So all of yesterday I have tried to go through my day as cheerfully and routinely as possible.

She on the other hand is reading me like a book, or feeling ridiculously guilty because she asks me every 20 mins if everything is ok. I smile and say yeah, why wouldn't it be? She then drops it. If she pushes the issue, or asks if the date is bothering me. I will tell her, of course this is bothering me you knew that, but I told you I'd let you explore. How else am I supposed to react, this is very hard for a husband to accept. Then drop it unless she keeps wanting to talk about it.

Ok so why am I acting like this. Well for one I want to give her the chance to choose not to do it. (she's backed down on two previous occasions, both times I told her if she did it was her choice). Both previous times she arranged this she was angry when she did, just like this time.

I also know that she is struggling with boundaries right now she is like a teen like YAH said. She's felt controlled and manipulated by me, so she's challenged me on multiple things in the last couple of months. I noticed that if I back down she'll usually make the right choice on her own. If I press she will do the opposite to spite me. I can tell that she is tired of choices getting dictated to her because she is "married". Instead she wants to do the right thing because she chooses to. Just yesterday we talked about formal events and she said she wanted to wear a skirt with a cuss word on it just to make waves. In the past this would have devolved into a fight because I would have told her that she coouldnt because she is married to someone of high rank and responsibility. She would have rebelled against feeling forced to comply merely because she is married to me.

Instead I told her that she was free to wear what she wanted, but that I would hope she cared enough about me to keep me from getting in trouble. She said didn't want me getting into trouble, but still would wear something outrageous. I smiled and said that was fine as long as it didnt get me in trouble.

Does this logic fit into the current dilemma? Maybe, I'll find out tomorrow. At one point she started resenting that it was her "role" to make me breakfast everyday. So I said fine its no problem and started making my own. Now she makes me delicious meals everyday, because she wants me to enjoy them. I love them too. She chose to do it.

Finally I spoke with a friend who has a masters in psych, and is in what he calls a successful open marriage. He know the entire sitch and we talk about it twice a month. After I told him the latest the first thing he keyed on was the fact that she was moody, and arranged for the date the same day we got our flight tickets.

He thinks that since she is unsure of the move at some level she is purposely creating conflict to have an easy out. He then went to say that comparing her actions to other people in the "community" she is one of those people that is totally unsure of what she is doing, and doing it for all the wrong reasons. His advice was just to let it roll of my back and call her bluff. Easier said than done but he reminded me that the more I push the more she'll push back. He said not to be surprised if she backs down at the last minute.

So this is where I stand now, we are going out tonight, at her request. She has been super considerate the whole time, and I got one of the more elaborate breakfasts ever from her. Clearly she is feeling some guilt, I wonder if it's enough for her to back down. Also she mentioned yesterday what I wanted for US to do this weekend I found that a little odd seeing as she supposedly has plans. Trying not to read too much into it. I also wouldn't be surprised if sat comes and goes and she doesn't go and doesn't mention it.

She always tries to avoid issues so it wouldn't surprise if I spend all of sat and sun with her and she tries to pretend there were never any date plans. She'd probably get upset if I brought it up. Either way I know I won't find out till tomorrow, I know she feels very guilty talking about it, so she won't bring it up until I do or the last minute.

As for me I already have plans, not going to mope at home that's for sure. I know at one point she will ask what the plan for tomorrow is. I will tell her my preferred plan which is to go to the Big city with her and visit 5 specialty shops we both like. At this point she can agree to go with me, or remind me that she has a date, at which point I will tell her I am going to play cards with the guys.

I know that the order of this is important, because she is gauging my reaction. I think I know her well enough to know that her question yesterday was her way of saying: I'm not sure I want to do this please give me a good excuse not to do it.

I dont know maybe I'm grasping at straws.

Well about to go to bed it's been 48 hours since she announced the "date" and we haven't talked about it since. In fact it feels like she wants to pretend it's not going to happen. I mean how can she put her head on my chest, knowing full well what she plans to do.

It's crazy but we haven't even worked out the logistics yet. I mean we only have one car right now. I wonder how long it will take her to either let me know when she is going, or if she changed her mind. I know WAW are chronic avoiders but this is ridiculous.

At the same time I know not to ask about it either. Don't want for her to feel "pressured" and have her go through just to spite me. Call me crazy but I learned from reading other threads and dealing with my W that bringing up anything having to do with their improper behavior just makes them defensive and encourages the behavior since they are hell bent on proving you wrong. The next 24 hours are going to s*ck.

And then she uttered the magic words. I'm on my period.