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so where does having the A, fit in with things?

I do not see this post as inspiring. It shows that you still don't get it after 5 1/2 months.

Yes you want to stand for your marriages. Words. words. words.

I mean it's all great that we all "stand for our Ms" But crap that really gets us nowhere.

Actions speak, actions speak loud.

It is time to stop.

Forgive yourself first. It is the healthy path.

She will forgive you in her own time. Or she may never.

That is for her, not you, to live with.

I hear this, I understand it... but can't seem to do it completely. It's as if, subconsciously, I have it in my head that the only way for me to forgive myself is for me to fix the damage that I have caused... that then, and only then, will I be able to truly forgive myself for causing the damage in the first place.

I can see where you're coming from.
In the "Five Languages of Apology" some apologies are only acceptable with restoration or repair.

You are doing your damndest Denver to repair the damage, to make yourself a better man, to atone. Good on you for recognising your part in this.

Whether or not that is acceptable to your W, lies in her ability to forgive you and offer unconditional love in return.

Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, and she too has her part in this.

We make mistakes. We learn that way. Cut yourself some slack man.

Yes Denver, I agree with TG and Scyl. My C told me time and time again that the things I did in or didnt do in the marriage should have been minor annoyances that are common in a marriage.

No blame game, but mY w is responsible for her own crap and also for magnifying them to make herself feel better about her own unhappiness.

I did tell her many times that it is easy to be unhappy.

She hated that. I would say, count your blessings, tell me what you want to make you happy and she could not come up with answers but she was great at the blame game after.

9

Thanks Scy and 9. I know that my W does share some fault. There are times now when I'm reminded of some of that. I also know that I need to forgive myself for the errors that I made. Those are many though and it is going to take me more time. Thanks you guys.

BITS
Denver

Many - I'd like to know what it is that you think that I don't get?? I'm not familiar with your sitch, but I find it curious that you are here on 'divorcebusting.com' and yet you believe that standing for your M will get you nowhere.

maybe...

But I do know where NOT standing for your M will get you... DIVORCED

AND... having learned nothing from it.

There is nothing wrong with that if that is YOUR personal choice. However, the vast majority of people here on this board do NOT want to end up THERE...

These people are taking the road less traveled... the hard road.

You suggest that STANDING for your M is just a word... or that I am just using words? I'm not sure what you are saying. But I can tell you that it has been much, much more than words for me... IT IS an ACTION... and it has been, BY FAR, the hardest thing that I have ever done.

I think that you diminish what everyone here is trying to do when you say that. So, I'm afraid that you are the one that does not get it.... at least not yet.

Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself what it is you hope to accomplish by being here. There is so much to gain if you choose to do work at it... maybe you can save your M... maybe you can't... but I guarantee you that you will walk away a better person if you choose the path that most of us here have chosen... and it's NOT the easy one.

Denver

Update...

W and I texted back and forth about the status of her sister having her baby. She texted me pictures of the new baby boy this afternoon.

W showed up at my house to pick me up to head to the hospital at around 6 p.m. When she pulled up, it was obvious that she and SS were arguing. She got out to get into my car and SS would not get out of her car. W could not get him to get out. She got into my car and asked me to get him. I tried, but he would not unlock the car door... when W used her keys to unlock the door, he would immediately lock it again. I remained calm... after about 10 minutes, I was able to get SS to open the car door. This whole time W just sat in my car ... she was obviously just done with SS's behavior and was hoping that I would just deal with it.

SS has been really disrespectful to my W the past couple of days. I have mentioned this at various times in my threads, but he is a very, very difficult 12 year old boy. He has been diagnosed with an undefined emotional disability and has been in behavioral disorder programs since he has been in school. There are definite signs of oppositional defiance disorder, but that diagnosis is hard to know for certain.

During my R with my W, we have struggled to agree on how to deal with SS's issues and defiance. Usually it is me being of the opinion that we should be more strict and hold him responsible for his actions on a more regular bases. W and W's mom have always been more on the side of using the loving, positive reinforcement side of how to deal with such issues.

So after I was able to get SS to unlock the door, I calmly talked to him and told him that his behavior was out of line. I talked to him about why he was upset at W. I then convinced him to get out of the car so we could go.

We headed over to the hospital. W was tired as she had been up since 5:30 this morning. She was not in a good mood at all for most of the evening.

I ignored it for the most part and just worked at keeping myself in a good mood.

When we got to the hospital, W walked in front of SS and me. I talked with SS a little about his behavior and told him that he needed to apologize to W.

Before going up to W's sister's room, we went to the flower shop for some flowers. While W and I were standing there, SS did indeed apologize to W.

We visited with SIL, BIL, MIL and FIL for about 2 hours.

Towards the end of the visit, SS was again very disrespectful to W... W looked at me and said something along lines of, 'you just let him treat me that way'.

This was the first time in a very, very long time that I have actually gotten p!ssed at my W. Immediately after she said that, I walked over in her direction to pick up my drink... she thought I was coming over to console her or to make her feel better... she said, 'I don't need you to come over and try to make me feel better about it'... I responded curtly, 'I'm NOT' ...

So obviously, this was not a good point of our evening.

SS was out of control at this point and had left the room despite my W telling him to stay. I went and brought him back to the room against his will. He was mad at me and said, 'I'm glad that we're not moving back home'.

This hurt my feelings tremendously. So at this point, I was upset with both my W and my SS.... and they were upset with each other.

We left the hospital shortly after this incident and headed to dinner.

SS rode with his uncle.

While W and I were driving, I reminded W that I have always stood up for her when SS has treated her poorly... that I would never let him speak to her the way that he did. I told her that she would get mad at me and tell me that I was too strict with him, or that I yelled at him too much. She responded by again telling me that I just stood there and said nothing tonight... .and that she used to get mad at me when I would lose control of my temper with him.

I responded by telling W that I am in a tough position bc I don't know what my role is in this R right now. That I feel that I am competing with OM who supposedly is so great to SS ... and so for both of these reasons, I am reluctant to play the role of disciplinarian with SS. I told her that I don't know what she wants me to do right now.

W then went on to tell me that SS needs from me what he has always needed and that I have not given him... a dad who shows him how to be respectful to her. She went on and on about how SS learned his treatment of her from me. That I never did anything to help teach SS to be respectful. She then made a comment about how OM didn't have a problem telling SS to be respectful to her. This was a comment that was completely out of line bc this was something that I ALWAYS did during our M. His disrespect was something that I NEVER tolerated. In fact, this whole conversation was W again blaming me for her life being so stressful.

THIS is one thing where W is at fault and has been for years. I have never gotten credit for everything that I have done to help her with SS... when I don't do enough, she is mad at me... when I do too much in her opinion, she is mad at me. This always caused me to feel unappreciated. I felt this again tonight... for the first time since before W left me.

I had enough at this point and told W that some of what she was saying was true, but that I wasn't going to let her completely change history. That I NEVER let him talk to her that way when we were together. That I was in no way the sole cause of his behavior towards her. I told her that what she was saying was unfair. I also told her that I am trying to repair my R with both she and SS... that I am trying.

W and I rode in the car in silence for a bit. We then just changed the subject. I was upset the rest of the ride to the restaurant, and I was upset when we got there.

Not only for the very bad experience of the evening, but also about being reminded of something that did make me unhappy during our M/R.

I immediately excused myself from the table once we were seated and went into the restroom. I reminded myself of my goals, my 180s, how to act 'as if', and how I want to be the change that I want to see.

I went back to the table and did my best to enjoy the evening myself, try to show BIL and his new W a nice evening, and to make the most of the rest of the evening with my W.

Things gradually got a little better bw W and I. But things were still tense bw us for the rest of the night.

SS and I played a little while W, BIL and SIL has a smoke after dinner.

We drove home. W and I didn't talk a whole lot during the drive.

when we got back to my house, W got into her car. I skipped my usual hug goodbye and just told her goodnight. I told SS goodnight and reminded him to have a good day in school tomorrow. I turned and walked into the house without waving to W.

Overall... Not a good night.

BITS
Denver

Denver, it seems like you were in a tough spot tonight, nothing you could do would made it any better, and you handled yourself pretty well. It seems like that during the db process, we start to "agree" with everything the WAS says in order to validate, but at some point, like tonight for you, it is just not realistic. I think you made several good points with your W that she probably needed to hear.
Your W tells you you are too strict, but you don't stand up for her with SS. What are you supposed to do with that. Maybe just realize that she is very confused right now. How is OM any sort of father figure for your SS when you are the one who has been in his life. I think you did well with that, bc I probably would have lost it.

And I know how much it hurts what your SS said about moving home, but kids will say anything to hurt somebody when they are hurting.

Like I said, you did pretty well tonight given everything that happened.

And where are your words Many?

You seem to have some very strong opinions when you DO post.

Which has been 5 times since you registered.

Watching from the nose bleed section?

Seems to me your just posting words...

AND it seems you are not posting to Denver but to everyone here who might be STANDING that you have the answer.

A bit presumptious AND errogant if I might say. And I will.

Where are your actions? What has happened with you that we all might benefit from your experience and infinite wisdom?

Easy to take shots at people without having your own laundry out for people to see.

If you don't want to then don't BUT I find it quite hypocritical for you to buzz by here and throw out words like little golden apples of wisdom.

How about starting your own thread so we maybe can get to know and understand your perspective?