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mykarma,

This will be a very long one but I think it's my last for awhile. I hope this helps b/c I fear that you're letting it go in one ear and out the other, figuratively speaking. Just a gut instinct telling me that, (and you saying you are feeling depressed and hopeless, etc) It's sort of a "Man Up" pep talk but with some specifics. Your fear based approach to all of this, and life in general, has cost you so much. I hope that you change that dynamic.

Thanks for reading and answering what you answered. But I can sit here and write down what I think you need to do, and you may even agree, but if you don't somehow get yourself to change behaviors, then nothing will change.

"Fake it til you make it", sounds gimmicky but a lot of studies show that it helps. So ACT the way you want to feel, and eventually you'll get there. I like to say "where the head goes, the heart will follow." Whatever works, do it.

You say you are less needy, and I hope that's true, but then you say you are prone to giving up hope and feeling depressed again. You seem to think your emotions are beyond your control. They are not. Re-read that last sentence please.

And the idea that the real underlying problem was that your w wanted you to be like her dad, but you could not, is vastly over simplifying.

You admit you had no conflict resolution skills and you were SO afraid of conflict. FWIW I am convinced that what conflict avoidant people fear, they actually bring about b/c of their inability to address it! IOW, it leads to MORE Conflict, not less. That's b/c the person is so conflict avoidant that they avoid working out even the most minor of uncomfortable things. Naturally Real issues get avoided like the plague, and do not magically go away by ignoring them. On the contrary, They fester & worsen....and blow up or create deep resentment that erodes trust, security and love. THE THING THEY FEAR THE MOST, THEY MAKE COME TRUE....You have to man up, however you can and whatever that looks like. Maybe she thought her dad was a good role model for you and maybe he is. WHATEVER, take a class or see a counselor for Conflict resolution. START LEARNING HOW TO DEAL WITH CONFLICT B/C IT'S A BASIC LIFE SKILL.

Regarding Role models...
A good friend of ours is a great father. But he himself had a terrible role model for fathering b/c he came from a lousy family (his own father had taken his own life! & that's a heavy burden!) So I wondered how our friend had become such a healthy well balanced dad/husband w/such a lousy role model. He told me that while he "knew what to avoid being like -ie his own father- he didn't know what to actually become like" as in, who to model himself after. It means you have to know more than just what to avoid.

We all need a positive role model b/c in times of crisis we revert to what we know, even if it's unhealthy. You have done just that, hiding and freaking out, and it seems you still do b/c you surrender to negative thoughts and emotions as if they're "landing" on you and you are helpless. you are not helpless. In our friend's case, it was his FIL whom he chose to emulate.
You had no positive role model to emulate, and your w suggested her dad. It was up to you to find a man you wanted to emulate, and up to both of you to learn conflict resolution.

I'm sorry your family got hurt too. You can talk to your L about having your parents around your d when they visit. In fact maybe it'll be a good chance for them to bond with her without w around. First you'll have lots of one on one time with D so you don't have to submit to your parent's views if you disagree with them. You are the only father this girl will ever have, so own and embrace that. It sounds as if trying to please everyone, (which is a form of conflict avoidance actually) as usual, pleased no one.
Regardless, Adopt whatever is workable from your FIL and use it. Find other men to help you with the rest, but for God's sake, don't stop looking around and learning what works and putting it in your life.
Put that in your action plan. Maybe join a club, support group or church where you can meet good family men.

Here are some more specific starting suggestions: Pick what you want, ignore the rest, etc.

1) No matter how bad you feel, you cannot show that to your w. Period. Those needs and negative emotions are all you represent to her so she does not need to see or hear of it anymore. Do NOT whine if she doesn't ask how you feel physically b/c you were sneezing or coughing. That reeks of weakness and childish whining. Handle it. Don't complain at all. In fact minimize it b/c hey, you're a tough guy, and coughs don't matter. Seriously, that's an easy fix. No whining.

Emotionally, do NOT complain about how you feel to your w. IT'S NOT ATTRACTIVE=does not work....It doesn't matter that you think she caused it (she didn't "cause it' anyhow, b/c remember, you are in charge of how you feel). What matters for now is that you want your w to be able to contact you, and talk, without her feeling uncomfortable. That means you have to meet your own needs, or keep them to yourself. Find a support group for men and join it. These groups exist.

2) INSTEAD, Be pleasant on the phone, upbeat, interesting, successful, and project a warm loving fatherly interest in your d. If this means you have to write notes to yourself about things to ask her that won't create tension, do so. [b]And listen to her responses to see if follow up questions make sense. Retain information. That's a conversational skill a lot of people lack.

3)[/b]Do NOT initiate R talk. If a negative memory surfaces or she faults you for something, you can Say "if I had it to do over again, I'd definitely do some things differently." This is a major statement to make in the event of R talk. Why? B/C by owning your flaws/mistakes, you effectively remove them from the table of discussion and from her microscope b/c if a problem is being worked on, it's NOT a problem anymore and there's nothing to talk about. Make sense? By owning the problems, you Don't fuel her negatives. You undermine/counter the negatives b/c you are addressing them. Make sense?

Your big fear is that she'll vent or attack you emotionally, or simply disconnect totally and never see you again (which isn't realistic since you have a D). But If she vents or attacks you, it's a great diffuser to say that back to her. Now, If you think she's dead wrong in her recall or interpretation of an event, you can say (without anger) "W, wow, I sure don't recall it that way at all. But I'm sorry you felt hurt."

But if you do recall being at fault in some respect, it's even better b/c you are totally stealing her thunder. You say something like "W, I remember that event. That's another example of something I'm working on. I'd do that way differently if I could do it over." End of comment. You don't go on and on about your remarkable changes and improvements, b/c you are showing her that there's not a lot to say about your flaw b/c hey, you're working on it. What's to say? It's being handled, it's diminishing in your life...it's not going to be a problem much longer....etc.
Got it?

Here's an example from my story that still amazes me in its' simplicity. H had paid the bills for 20 years but when he left he stopped paying them, and did not tell me. So I was overwhelmed and missed paying the utilities. Our electricity almost got cut off. I was very upset. On top of dealing with my job, our huge house HE HAD PICKED, the financial strain he caused by leaving and taking a 90% pay cut in, and leaving me with kids at home without a father....But I had a DB session before he called, and I vented and I had learned...so when I told h that the electric bill got paid and was almost cut off, he assumed I was going to berate him (which would have been true, but for the DB session). I said something like "that was a close one" and he said "well now you know what it's like to pay the bills b/c I've been doing it for two decades without any help!" And instead of taking his bait & yelling at him about being irresponsible and not telling me, etc.... I did a 180. I said "I know you have, and I want to thank you for that b/c it IS stressful."...he paused for probably 30 seconds and then said, "you're welcome." That was a big lesson for me and a turning point for us in how to handle things that could go a good way, or a really bad way. That 180 of mine produced small but immediate results.

Sometimes keeping our cool isn't easy at all. Sometimes it's dang hard. My h was NOT responsible when he left and he was selfish. I told my DB coach that hiding my anger from him at all times was "Mother Teresa hard" and she laughingly agreed...but dang, it works!
It made it possible to converse and that's a big starting point b/c without that simple skill, nothing else is achievable.


4) Start with reachable goals of -for example- asking her, or answering, 3 questions that are NOT conflict laden. CONVERSE briefly & pleasantly, then get to your D and YOU get off the phone. If you set this as a goal it's measurable and your goals have to be measurable. Being able to talk to the mother of your child without falling apart or fighting is your first goal.

Spending time with your d, is your second but over arching goal. (The first goal helps you attain your 2nd). Another opportunity for this might be with the meetings where you hand off your d, When you have to be around your w. Make those times count and that doesn't mean they have to be lengthy. But you have to look good and[b] be a man only a fool would leave. Or at least act like one for the minutes you are around her .[/b]

What has your L told you about time with your D? So, do you have a reasonable agreement with your wife now? What's stopping you from having that? It's NOT "acrimonious" or "fighting dirty" to fight to see your child. It's what loving fathers do to be with their child. ALWAYS be calm when you discuss it and if that's not possible, refer your w to her L and say you'll have to let the L's work it out...then drop it.

Also, I asked you a few questions you ignored, probably b/c you don't have an answer or lacked the time. But they are the "big picture" questions ALL LBSers must answer or they will remain LBSers....



So, how would being married to you today be different than being married to you before? If the answer is, "it wouldn't be very different" then your situation will not change or improve. Period. The WAS is usually not insane to leave, so if the factors that caused them to leave are still there, the insane thing is for the LBSer to think that doing the same behavior over and over again, will yield different results. In your case, you did nothing different in 09...so now, are you going to repeat that approach?

What are you bringing to the table as a man, (to any woman)? I mean, outside interests....for instance, I do theater and stand up comedy as avocations. (Yeah, I'm actually SO darn funny!!) I have a good income and love our kids, am interested in a variety of things and am never depressed for long. I refuse to be. When my father died, I did get depressed, as in clinically depressed. 6 weeks into that, our then 4 y/o d asked if I was "always going to feel sad" and the NEXT DAY I made an appointment with a shrink. Got on meds, temporarily, and I got better in a few weeks.

You know, our kids will lose me and their father someday. I like to think I modelled for them how to handle that grief. If you need help, you get it. But our pain is not eternal (it does get better with time and effort) and our pain is not fatal (we WILL get through this). These are things you have to believe about your life now.

And I don't know if you do. You swing from sounding really desparate in one thread to "starting to get it", in another. Mostly you sound very depressed and afraid. Your fears are almost crippling you. How much have you changed since this all began? You skimmed over the part about her leaving in 09 and you not changing. See, in her mind, you have had plenty of chances but you did nothing with them.

Mykarma, Why not seek out professional help? (Don't be offended by the question, it's coming from someone who has done so herself.) It would need to be something you did for your health & happiness and not b/c you want to get strategies to win her back. That's tactical, not true growth. And by your own assessment, you are predisposed to depression and anxiety. That "condition" went untreated for a decade and that has cost you something very dear to you-your marriage. You can get help or you can keep hoping and praying that everyone else will change...what makes the most sense to you?

Get some help. I am not a doctor but you have "permission" to do whatever it takes to function at your best. You sometimes seem to be barely hanging on and don't feel judged by me b/c--- I GET THAT....okay, been there, done that. Sometimes for me, taking a pill meant getting a night's sleep or not yelling uncontrollably at someone who really does not need to be yelled at, like a child or boss...or losing a job, or just letting your immune system rest so you can think straight. Just curious, If you don't get help now, what it would take for you to say you need it?

You need an action plan with some small goals, which serve larger over arching goals.

Really take time to assess your life now. Some people never do. They get left and act as if a tree limb fell on them, "it happened" and nothing gets learned. Maybe you will react that way, or maybe you won't.
Maybe you will Not let FEAR be your primary motivation in life, and maybe now you will Not choose to remain stuck, filled with self loathing and writhing in discomfort at the terrifying thought of owning your life and taking charge of it and full responsibility for it..OR, maybe you will choose to believe that you cannot change, remaining the same IS easier in the short run, so therefore all is lost....or you can take charge of your life.

Mykarma, what if your life were a novel? Who is writing yours? How is this chapter going? How would you like the next chapter to go, and how would you like the end of your novel to read?

Be the author of your life. Stop letting your fear of your w's reactions or your parents disapproval, or the guy down the street who thinks your clothes are sloppy or your car is too loud...Stop letting anyone else write in your novel. It's yours to write.

When you get better, & choose to take charge of your life, others won't mistreat you nearly so much, and if they do it won't destroy you. And you will become a much more attractive man and model for your d. You'll be happier. Do whatever it takes to be the author of your life and do it asap.


good luck

25, stick around. Please!

I think you just out did yourself with this one. The funny thing about this place. The sitch can be so different. The goals for each of us so different. The problems in the M so different. And yet, good advice like this post is so useful to all of us. Tweak a word here, a slight change there, and bam. Speaks to all of us.

There are some very important parts of your post that, while not directed towards me, I will take to heart.




This is my W to a T. She would even admit this about herself. I am quite the opposite. So in our M, I would always want to try to fix what was wrong. W on the other hand would not want to address it. Ever ask her "what's wrong" and it would always be "nothing.". I have to admit, this would drive me up a wall sometimes. I would get MORE angry. We can't fix it if we don't address it!

She then explained her A and leaving the way it ends up. She said everything she held in finally burst. Her being an RN, used a pretty sick example of a Cyst that burst and no way of putting it back together.

Anyways, my point. Not addressing conflict DOES create bigger problems. 100% agree.



One more, this is so great . In some cases it really is just reality. While we work on ourselves, we ca at least show our absolute best for the time they see/talk to us. I have to admit, I have had to do this a lot.


Anyways, thanks again for the information you provide her. Like I said, while you might be responding to one persons sitch, there is great information in here for all of us.

25yearsmlc : I sincerely thank you for taking time on my sitch. I could not have asked for a better help.

All i can say in summary is that I have realized how dysfunctional i have been all these years and never took it upon me to introspect myself. And finally when i did do that in 2009, i failed to find good people to get help.

In a way, i think what happened now is a good thing for it finally has shown me what i am. And i dont like that person. I have a lot i need to change about myself. But as you correctly pointed out, i constantly fall back into the pit of fears and use them as excuses for my malady. I think i'll use this time alone i have not as a crying time, but as time to work on myself. I know that a week from now i might be falling into that pit, but all i can do now is keep climbing backup.

I really hope you stick around because i believe all of us on this forum can benefit from your wisdom. Thank you so much.

I guess when it rains, it does pour. Just heard from my mom that they had to admit my dad to the hospital due to chest pain. He had 3 stents placed last year for his artery clogging. Oddly instead of freaking out, i tried re-assuring my mom that he'd be okay. It is hard to keep the spirits up when you are about 7000miles from your folks. I guess all these are tests for me to become strong.

25
That post helped me a bunch and gave me a lot to think about. Thanks.

You are very welcome. Just paying it forward.

Journalling....

One of my colleagues at work, also my friend invited me to hang out with him at this local club for the evening. I've never done that. So i thought why not.

All i can say is that it was different. I loved the music andthe beats, but it seemed like people who were just looking to hook up.
I guess not my cup of tea. I figured i'll find other GAL activities like my R/C hobby, maybe a book club. But being there reminded me of my wife. She always loved a good music and danced well.

25, I did take your advice on trying to be a friend with my wife. Yesterday after talking to daughter and before hanging up, i did ask her 'how are you doing'. I think she was taken aback and asked me 'why are you asking?' I said 'just like that'. She says 'i am fine. How are you'. I said 'fine' and then we hung up. A small step perhaps toward a better relationship with STBXW.

Another test i guess. My dad was supposed to come home from the hospital yesterday evening. Looks like there's some internal bleeding. So now he stays another day until they do an endoscopy. Normally i would have been a wreak at this point. But oddly i am actually holding up and doing what i need to do. Calling up and re-assuring my mom. There are some things in life that are just not under your control and all i can do is pray.

BITS, i need some insight here.

From the time wife left in Dec, she has not sent me a single pic of daughter through any one of the major stuff that came up, like daughter's bday in feb, daughter starting kindergarten in march etc.

I have asked wife on numerous occasions to send me a pic of daughter because i dont know how she looks now. Wife either laughs or tells me that she has to take time to snap the pic. She has a smart phone and she can send me the pics. But even after asking (latest was 2 days ago), she does not. I am not sure how else to convey this to her.

Now she has asked me to copy and send her all the CD's that has daughter's pics in them. Yup i have been lazy and am not finding time to copy and mail those CD's. Is she doing this because i did not mail the CD's yet?

I have been a good dad. Wife herself said that. She also knows how much i miss and love daughter. I am not sure why she is holding off on sending any pics of daughter.

MK, I don’t know why any more than you do. We can speculate, but what positives come from that? So what about taking an action and seeing what the outcome is?

You’ve asked nicely several times, without a positive outcome. IMO opinion this makes her small and petty. She is in control of how she responds to your request. Each time you ask, you acknowledge this.

Unless we watch for it we can become entrenched in non profitable behaviors.
Remember cheese less holes from DR?

Do you want to become small and petty? No you want to be the bigger person almost magnanimous, noble spirited in this.

What would it cost you to burn a copy of a couple of CDs? I wouldn’t send all of them all at once, but I would take the high road and send a couple then wait and see what the outcome is, eventually sending all of them as time permits. They are copies you’re not losing the originals. Or you could upload them to a photo sharing site.

What would it cost to burn an edited CD with specific photos of good times. IDK about this last bit as the emotional cost could be high.

The thing here is to be the bigger person, and demonstrate your changes, not as the old MK, but as the new improved MK, confident and in control.

Can you remind me what your situation is with your D. Have not seen her once since your W left?