Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers WAW, and a bisexual open marriage

25yrs and Young at Heart
I understand what you both are saying, but with a month and a half left here, It seems really pointless to start something too elaborate. That's why I started playing cards after almost ten years of not playing. I hate starting things (especially with all the investment costs) only to not be able to do them once we move. Now once I move!! Man that is going to be great! I already have a martial arts class lined up, I'm getting back into triathlon, keep playing cards (of course) and will get to do much sightseeing. Yeah I worked myself into a rut lately, but who cares I'm almost out of here. I'm way too excited about the new location. Now if I can find a good guitar teacher I will definitely do that too. (Sorry Young at Heart, I think that's as stereotypical Alpha Male as it gets for me) Not that I'm a wuss, or effeminate, a lot of that stuff just doesn't get my attention. Not to mention that it is a major turn off for my W.

Now I find your comment about finding physical activity slightly ironic. I have always been in shape. Never been a buff guy, just slim and slightly toned. Now that six pack sounds great, but I already have a 29 inch waist, yet no six pack. I tried trust me lol!! I can still outrun the 18 year olds at 27 So physical fitness is not an issue. Where I will agree with you is that I have stayed in great shape, but haven't done something AWESOME with it. I used to do triathlons, did the Bataan Death march three years in a row with full gear. (In fact just because you mentioned that I had to wear one of my shirts today :D) So I will admit that despite staying in shape, that competitive edge sure has been missing lately. One of the reason was that my W always complained about how I was never around because of all the train up for it. Go figure.... I used to run 15 to 20 miles a week bike about 50 and swim 5000 meters... With two workout sessions a day. Now I do about 30 mins a day and watch what I eat. My work schedule just changed so I think starting tomorrow I will devote 1.5 hours to working out. I had also planned to start using Rosetta stone now that my schedule has changed.

Now as for a social outlet, I understand that friendships are what you make of it, but because of my particular assignment about 80% of the people I know will be gone in about a week. I myself will not have much to do around work for about a month. (I already have lots of cool things planned) The guys I play cards with are a great bunch, and I make new friends everyday. It's nice to know that in only a month I'm already making a name for myself in the local circuit.

Oh I'm also an amateur photographer... Just kinda hate the scenery around here, but at my next duty station!!

Bottom line I'm pretty happy with my current situation, I guess it's only because I know I am going to my dream duty station. Then again I sacrificed ALOT to get there so I know I deserve it!

I know my W is not happy here, and I don't blame her. I offer lots of opportunities for her to do things with me, because it builds the relationship, and gets her distracted. Now she did mention that since I had gotten back I have been smothering her, so that's why I let her take the trip. I also play cards 2-3 times a week for about 3-6 hours. That has gotten us some pretty good space. Here's another thought about her "doing something" during the trip. She could just as easily, if not more, do it while I am at work, playing cards, or doing something else. No thanks I don't need that type of paranoia. I already have enough of a hard time with my own insecurities about the relationship. I don't need anymore.

I already went through a period where I tried to find everything, and suspected everything. In the end all it did was create more strife between us, because she could see right through me. She found my need to know everything seriously unattractive, no apalling. If there was an OM/ OW all it did was push her further. No more of that. It's one of my 180's. I guess this is my polite way of asking for people to please stop suggesting that. I am well aware that is a possibility. (It says so in the name of the thread!) As far as i know, and trust me I tried, a PA or EA has not happened. Freaking out about it will not prevent it if it is in the works. It will just make me look weak, and undesirable. The goal is confident and aloof. Not worrying about something that hasn't happened, or I can't prove has happened. Ok enough of that.

As for my W liking our next assignment, we went there twice on vacation and loved it so much I decided to make some sacrifices so we could go. It's looking good in that respect. She has work lined up, and a lot of GAL of her own. I know this will be good for the both of us.

Kettricken
I agree with you about it maybe looking like a disorder. I think the 300 calorie thing though had to do with other issues in our R. (The very next day she had a veggie burger, and ice cream) I agree that she eats a relatively low amount of calories, but she is very good at counting them, and making sure she gets what she needs. To include lots of supplementation since she is vegetarian. I have worried in the past, but after seeing her eating habits and how meticulous she is in ensuring she meets her needs, I don't worry much.

GB,

you realize you have an explanation for everything she does, and a reason for why you cannot change or do anything differently? That's what I got from your post. So my question is, what do you want from this site?

semi journal entry:
I'm calling this a semi journal entry since I want to talk about some of the stuff I have been up to while my W is away. I will make a full entry about what happened in the last 5 days some time later.

Ok so I have been busy with wrapping up some loose ends at work, and GALing. It's been very nice being alone lately, and I have for the most part been enjoying it a lot. Didn't get to run, but I found my racing speedo, and will go swim some laps tomorrow. Got to play cards both yesterday and today, for about 4 hours each time. I really needed that, and the guys that play are great guys.

Now I also went out last night to buy a copy of No more Mr Nice Guy, but the local store didn't have it. I went ahead and bought in ebook format since I didn;t want to wait till it was delivered, or drive to the big city to get it. I read half of it already, and I have to say it sure this hit me where I am vulnerable. Like the book says I really am having a hard time accepting that my "nice guy ways" are pretty self destructive. I'm sticking to it though, and it's nice to know that some of my 180's fall under the NMMNG program. I even called my dad and we had a talk about the way I was raised to be the perfect little boy, his absence during constant business trips, and how he never modeled "guy stuff" since he did most of it during his trips, and we only did "family stuff" when he was back. (He used to alternate between our home and work every two months). Pretty enlightening. I sure am looking forward to applying some stuff, although I have a general idea of where I want to go with it, but not sure the exact parameters. I guess this is why I am here.

Which brings me to my next point: I come here to vent, to get a sympathetic ear, for advice, and the occasional 2x4 to the head. I have found the recommendation for NMMNG to be excellent, and only wish Young at Heart would have recommended it sooner. It is a great book. I like the message, make yourself happy first. I know this is DB basics, but this book tailors the DB message to my specific needs. It's great. That being said, I have been GALing for the past 5 days, and it has been great. I have read, played lots of cards, and played some video games. While playing cards I have found a group of guys I enjoy hanging out with. Which NMMNG heavily recommendeds. Most importantly these are the activities that have made ME happy. Just like the NMMNG and DB say, make yourself happy. Yeah they are not super macho activities, or what many would even think as worthwhile hobbies, but I DONT CARE. They make ME happy. Giving the circumstances I think I have made gallons and gallons of lemonade, I just like my lemonade a little bit geekier. What's funny is that if you were to see me in the street you wouldn't even be able to tell that I am geeky. I'm in shape, dress well, and groom. (My W is the same, we are stealth geeks I guess). Neither of us is ashamed of it, but you wouldn't be able to tell until we mentioned it. So yeah not making excuses, just trying to let you guys now this IS what I like. The best part is that it gets even better once I move. So it is win-win! If someone here doesn't like that then tough! (That's NMMNG too you know)

Ok now let's talk about W. I understand that "battered spouses" will make excuses for their partners. Yeah I recognize that, and I weigh in very carefully when people comment on W's behavior. At the same time only I am living through this and only I understand the extent of my sitch. I try to share as much as I can, but not all of it gets through either because I may miss a detail, or don't relate it well. These are second hand stories after all. I will also admit that, yes I do suffer from Mr Nice Guy syndrome (MNGS). It is something I have identified and I am taking slow steps to rectify. I have begun to see some successes (which will be talked about later) but also realized that I have only begun. Here is what is really starting to get on my nerves, (assert your emotions, see I'm already making progress. ) I post my sitch, not because I am looking for pity, but because I am looking for a new DB based perspective on what I am doing. Here is what I am not here for: I am not here for strangers to demonize my wife, or for my DB efforts to be belittled. My wife is a WAW I expect her to say and do outrageous things, and to be honest it has been mostly saying hardly any doing. (Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me). Thanks to DB and NMMNG I am starting to see how my W's outbursts for what they truly are, manifestations of WAW syndrome mixed with depression. I am doing my best for the both of us. I just didn't realize that it meant taking care of me first. Calling my wife bats**t crazy and other things does not help the situation. Yes there are issues she and I must deal with, but a general attitude of her being of her rocker is just plain condescending.

Besides what am I supposed to do kick her to the curb? I swear I have been getting that vibe from some of the posts lately. I understand people have concerns, but please watch your tone. She is still the woman I love because she has proven to me time and time again that she is worth it. I am willing to fight for this M, and hope that this is just another bump we can get through. If all my efforts are for naught I am glad I can finally say it will be ok. I have DB and NMMNG to thank for that.

I hope I am not over reacting, but I sure don't like where this thread has been going lately. I need help to fix my issues, and hopefully the M. Not for someone to try to convince me that my W is worthless. I am trying to save this.

Ok rant is over....

no one is saying kick her to the curb. I think in the 1000+ posts I've written I said to one woman who was in danger, that she needed a restraining order (and she did). Even then I didn't say "Divorce" b/c This is not a site to give advice about leaving. It's to bust divorces, so, hence the name. I guess if the person has no choice they can get help on the forum for surviving divorce, which I hear is good.

My h left to live up in the great North for a job and adventure, for 2 years. It's important that I told people this was the first truly selfish thing he ever did and that it was really out of character for him to do this. That information is relevant. I could vent about his new found selfishness but if all I had written was he left me and 3 kids for a job up there, a lot of people would have given me different advice than what I got (The advice I got here, esp from a few of the men and 3 women was a real Godsend. Absolutely a gift from above, as was my DB coach. But they got ALL the info so they could help me.)

We come here, to Divorce Busting, with the presumption that we want to save our marriages, save ourselves, or if we truly have no choice, to get through a divorce with as much dignity as possible. We presume we must work on ourselves and that this work on us, will by definition change the relationships we are in, b/c we are part of the relationship and we are changing.

But in your first posts your description of your w's behavior sounded pretty strange and you weren't telling us the rest of the story, ie why you were married to her in the first place, or the context of her behaviors, etc. We know you were venting but it helps a lot to know the rest b/c frankly if all we hear is bad stuff, what are we to think or advise? For instance the advice itself IS different for couples who have had a lot in common and had a strong marriage for years, or always resolved conflicts well, and then suddenly one of them goes & acts totally out of character. That's different from, say, a tumultuous marriage that has always needed a tune up in the communication department.

So the information is relevant to the advice you'd get b/c we don't know if the mainstream & traditional advice will work OR if something more dramatic is needed. Does this make sense? Do you see why we'd need a bit of the other side to assess what type of help you need? I don't see you as battered, btw. But yeah, she's depressed. There's a chapter in MWD's book about having a depressed spouse. Venting is fine but then make sure you state up front that it is one sided venting.

Your original post was long and detailed. Going by memory now, I think you
said She wanted an open m, with either sex, and you did not. You said that when you tried to talk to her about it, she'd leave the room or you two would fight. And you said that she was setting up a lot of conditions precedent to ML and that it was hurting you or was not what you wanted. Those are just some basics I recall.

You have to decide if those are issues you can live with as is, or if they all need repairs, etc. Your choice. Just be clear about it. I mean if it's fine with you, tell us.

Cards with the guys sounds great to me. I'm not sure why you think there'd be disapproval. I assume you're not betting the rent money and so, sounds fun and to me it sounds macho. The guys playing cards. What indoor activity is more "guy ish" than that? Plus it's good to have buddies.

Enjoy your time alone and doing the reading.

I re-read the posts in this thread. I don't think anyone has said here to kick your wife to the curb or that she is batsh*t crazy. What I read isn't belittling your DB efforts, it is suggesting other things for you to read or try or advice others learned from trial and error.

I think that you have gotten a lot of good advice and several folks have opened their hearts to you and shared their own personal experiences on what worked for them when their marriage was in crisis. You are not alone. You are not the first person to have struggled in marriage. MWD has a wealth of experience in helping people save marriages. You have found a caring community. It just might be one that doesn't tell you everything you want to hear.

I think that you are doing an incredible job of figuring things out so quickly. It is also clear that you want to make your marriage work. You are a quick learner and committed to your wife, which is wonderful. There are elements to being a Nice Guy that are endearing, but as you now understand there are also costs and problems. I know as I was once a NG, who was focused on pleasing others at my own expense.

I also think that a lot of this has overwhelmed you emotionally. When my marriage was in crisis I was very afraid that I would loose my wife.

I also think that it is good for you to reach out to your father. I aplaud you for that.

You said you ranted and that you like an ocassional 2x4 to the head. If you will now let a 62-year-old man rant for a couple of minutes you might also get some of the avice you say you want from this forum.

• Re-read Glovers book a couple of times to really understand what he is saying. It is about becoming a better "man," an integrated person, who takes care of his needs and those of his family. It is not necesarily about having fun or what you like. It is all about getting a life about living a good life that counts.
  
  
• As cheesey as the website is, take a look at the suggested reading list of books Men's Reading list of 34 books My suggestion for your next book is a very dorky book called Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants. It is the story of a young man who goes on a hike with his grandfather and learns about several thousand years of collective wisdom in how men and women interact. As politically incorrect (and dumb) as the book is, there is a reason that there are male and female sterotypes, and that generalizations such as in the book Men are from Mars.... ring true to so many. You may feel that you and your wife are "different" and modern and above such things, but you may also be surprised (over time) what you and she both need deep down inside you. I can almost guarantee that you won't like the book and think that it was a waste of money, until you try some of the suggestions. (While you are at it get the Five Languages of Love by Chapman as if you really understand what he is saying it will make a huge difference in your life.)
  
  
• Start reading other books from the list. Some will be full of crazy ideas that are just plan dumb, but might have just one idea that resonates with you. Even if there is just on idea, it is worth reading the book. Get the books from a library so you don't have to spend money on all of them. Again, you are embarking on a journey of GAL and becoming an integrated man, a whole person. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with you or with your wife. It just means that you are growing.
  
  
• When you think you have things pretty well figured out, then and only then get the book by Dr. David Schnarch called the Passionate Marriage. It should scare the hell out of you and yet teach you so much. He views marriage as the hardest thing anyone can do. He calls marriage a crucible that melts and renders two people through pain, stretching and growing into a family. His view of marriage is incredibly hard work with incredible intimacy and passion as the reward if you do it right.

Again, you are doing very well in figuring things out. You have made amazing progress. I think that you are well on your way to trying to save your marriage. Ultimately, it will be your wife's choose if she wants your marriage to succeed or not. You can only change yourself and support that which she has chosen to do.

My advice to you is to try to learn from others who have gone down a similar path before you. That vicarious learning can be from books, from the advice of friends and relatives, or from people you share common dreams (such as those on this forum).

Be open to what others say. You don't need to do what they say or suggest, but you should be open, listen, and see what makes sense to you. Then you can experiement and try what makes sense to you. You can also ocasionally try something that doesn't make sense. That is what is so incredible of MWD's 180's and the success that they bring.

Sorry for preaching.

Good luck to you and your wife on finding happiness. I really do wish you the best.

I don't know I guess I mistook a lot of the advice being thrown my way as negativity. Either way I really don't feel like using more posts to explains which parts bothered me and which didn't. I'd hate to start a flame war when I am here to DB.

Realizing that there are still some big issues I am not happy with in the M, at a personal level I feel I am at pretty big high. These past 5 days have led to a lot of self discovery, I feel in control again. I hope to continue this feeling after I pick her up from the airport tonight. Talked to my dad both yesterday and today. Yesterday focused on what he "didn't" teach me, today we focused on what he did. I come from a long line of entrepreneurs, the knowledge of commerce being passed down from one generation to another. My father passed this to me, unfortunately starting a small business is VERY hard in the US, unlike where my family is from, so I have tabled it until after military retirement. (Wooohooo 38, 11 years to go!!!) Realizing this I am considering starting a small ebay store, talked it over with dad, let him know that I was thankful for passing this "manly" pursuit to me. I feel that this will be a great GAL opportunity for me.

25yrs in your last post you asked me if I was still trying to "close" my marriage. The answer is yes, I have to admit that I allowed that precondition in a moment of weakness, and did not respect my own boundaries. It's something I plan to do something about. In order to do that though I feel that I need to regain my self respect first. She asked for this precondition in a moment of extreme MLC and WAW, because of her actions I feel she herself is not too convinced it is what she really wants. As someone else mentioned, by me "accepting" it I am giving her one less reason to rebel against me. (That doesn't mean I am comfortable with it, and she knows this). At the same time I have been reading Sparks thread who is in a similar situation, and have realized from his own realization that ultimately in a matter like this I can't make this decision for her. She needs to choose me, and only me. Even by finding my own self respect, if I demand of her to not do it. She will only resent me, and this will make things worse in the long run. I want her to be with me, and me alone because she chose to, not because I forced her to. At the same time through DB and NMMNG I am making it more and more attractive for her to choose me and me alone. It is like DB'ers who win back their W's from OM, in my case I am trying to win her back from a possible PA opportunity. Different sitch, same principles. Ultimately I believe that she wants this PA opportunity only because she is trying to fill a void in our R. I hope that through my efforts I can fill that void. If I was able to keep her only to myself for 6 years, why shouldn't I be able to do it now that I am a better person? I am also lucky that to my knowledge a PA has not occurred. Although sometimes it feels like a race against the clock to win her over before this hypothetical PA happens. (I'm sure that is not good DB). Indeed our R has dramatically improved from those tumultuous days 2 months ago, and believe that for every good day we have, it pushes her willingness to do it further away. The hope is to eventually erase this "need" she claims to have.

That being said, what if this all fails? What if she does do the PA, but regrets it. Well I think some soul searching will be necessary in both our parts. I will have to analyze if the M is worth saving afterwards, and she will have to analyze if she is regretful enough to put in the hard work to save the M. I have a feeling that we will both go through what a lot of couples trying to recover from infidelity go through. If she shows no remorse, and decides that this a lifestyle she wants, I will have to do a lot of soul searching and decide if I can tolerate it. Decide what boundaries to set, and how all this all will play out.

The most important part though is that I finally feel that I am happy enough with myself to pull the plug on this crazy scheme at any moment. I think I am strong enough to pull out if she crosses a line I can't handle. I think the scary part is that sometimes I don't know what those lines are myself. (I'm sure once it is crossed it will be blatantly obvious). Something I need to keep working on, and think only I can decide what those lines are.

After all the reading I have been doing I have been wondering if all the strife that has been created in our R has been her own way of getting me to stop being a nice guy. Today I had coffee with a male friend, and we talked about one of our coworkers, and how we both felt like punching him in the face. Where I am a Mr Nice Guy with my W and my W alone, he is a Mr Nice Guy with EVERYONE. We both talked about how we just wanted to punch him in the face to see if he would at least get angry enough to man up. Then we talked about fight club, need to read that book... Anyway it made me wonder if all the horrible things she has said, are just her verbal punches for me to stop being Mr Nice Guy and man up to her. Well whether they were or not, I am committed to manning up for myself. It will be really nice if they help my M.

Gonna go get ready to go pick her up, I have to admit I am not as particularly excited as I would have been in the past. The reason why will have to wait until I make a blog post about her time away and how I reacted to it. I have held off on talking about it, because I wanted these five days to be about ME and not the R. So I have tried to steer the conversations in this thread towards me. (Trust me some good stuff has happened, that I REALLY want to talk about, but I wanted to focus on me this week)

Currently at the airport, have to admit I am nervous. Will she be glad to see me, indifferent, or in full WAW relapse? I was fine for 5 days why am I nervous now? Must focus and be tough, confident, and indifferent.... I feel all my efforts will go to waste if I appear weak when she arrives. I hate this I have to balance between being happy she is back, but not so happy she keeps taking me for granted. If I can just relax I'll be fine.

Log entry
Ok so I think I last left off on Saturday. That day went fairly well, I got her to semi admit she wanted to spend time with me. We did and it was fun. The next morning we woke up early got some coffee and drove 1.5 hours to the airport. Before getting in the car I got the wrong set of keys and she got a little moody. Although knowing her the stress of the trip was already making her cranky. I got in the car and noticed that after two months of not wearing it, she was wearing her wedding ring. I tried not to say anything, then she said " I saw your goofy grin when you saw my left hand, I'm only wearing it so there is no confusion at the airport.". I said to my self "sure whatever you say". I was in a good mood and the 1.5 hour trip went well. We played and joked around the whole way. Once we got there I asked if she wanted to be dropped off or wanted me to accompany her to the security point. She said whatever you want, which I took as female speak for "accompany me". Helped her with her stuff, and then she told me "well you have me for 15 more minutes!" Not sure what she meant so I semi excitedly said "good!"

We walked to the gate, and I noticed a couple passionately hugging and kissing good bye. All I could think was how awkward saying good bye would be. She asked me to hold her bag while she grabbed her ticket, and noticed she got very close to me. I resisted and she got closer, until she finally leaned in and gave me a hug. I hugged her back (this was the second hug she initiated in 24 hrs). I was happy. After the hug I said good bye turned around and walked back to the car, without even looking back. It wasn't until a few days later that I realized that I would usually stay put and watch her go through the gates, and wave good bye if she turned around. It surprises me that I didn't without thinking and wonder if she noticed. As for the rest of the days they went by VERY fast got to GAL a lot! Unfortunately I had a few jealousy attacks, but I kept them in check, went semi dark in that I made her start all communication. She didn't text and call as often as I would have liked but enough from keeping the worst jealousy away. Only light jealousy lol. I actually didn't miss her. If she didnt answer much I just chalked her up to her being busy. There was only one instance when she didn't text me till 4 in the afternoon I knew that she was traveling from Philly to dc on greyhound, and was concerned. When she finally did I was out with some buddies helping a friend move. Part of NMMNG. Once she did text she really wanted to talk, I was tempted to leave my friend hanging nice guy syndrome again(ngs). I held strong though, and told her I was busy helping my friend move, and couldn't talk. I could tell by her response that she found this very out of character for me. Good! I was proud for not making her my center. Other than that it was good.

As you guys can probably tell from my previous post I was nervous picking her up. I had thoroughly convinced myself I wanted her to go. In fact I still feel like it was good for our M. Regardless the ugly part of ngs came out. I was very passive aggressive. As she came down the stairs at the airport I was anxious to see her. She had a frown on her face, (was wearing her ring) so I decide not to give her a hug or reach out. Her first thing to say was "you got a haircut" (she doesn't like me with short hair). We talked about some things mostly about the concerts, I was trying to stay strong. I was probably being passive aggressive. She then said something along the lines of I want to go back. I said fine go ahead. She said I will! I said good! Then she got upset. I was just trying not to give in but she got upset. In true ngs fashion I tried to make things better and eventually things calmed down. Unfortunately for the next two hours I was pretty passive aggressive sigh. I realize now that although I still think the trip was good for the M. I made some stealth contracts and was trying to cash in. Ngs tendencies die hard I guess. It got so bad she even said "good thing we are getting a d" all I said was ouch and got quiet. She realized what I said and started explaining how my behavior was really asenine. After reading NMMNG I have to agree. I told her it was only because I was jealous of her trip, which I was. I also realized that I needed to be excited with her, otherwise she would get her support from her friends and not me. I started listening to her and truly getting excited, not jealous this really smoothed things over. Once we got home she was very tired she got airplane cold I think. I didn't do my usual routine of smothering her by trying to take care of her. Instead waited till she asked for my help. She did and was very appreciative. So this is what it is like to have someone appreciate you, without you forcing them. It was nice. I hope I can make a full recovery from NGS.

GB90,

I spent a few hours reading your thread...

I have to say, you are all over the place...

I know you feel like people were bashing your W, but really, based on what you wrote, they were simply pointing out the ways that YOU were allowing her to treat you, things that YOU were allowing to happen, etc... I didn't see it as bashing at all...

Sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees and it helps to have others point it out...

There were a few alarm bells for me as well, concerning both of you, but I will reserve those for now...

I see you trying to make changes however they don't seem to be things that you are really embracing and changing for yourself...

I see you doing things so as not to upset the apple cart...

That only works for so long...

She doesn't like your hair short (you are in the military right?), and you worry that she is upset about it...

How do YOU like your hair?

My BF, likes my hair long. So do I. So I keep it that way. If I didn't, I would cut it (which is always a possiblity). My hair, my choice.

You sir, are walking on egg shells in regards to your M.

I am willing to bet that your week was good because of the time apart. You could do for YOU without worrying that it was going to upset her...

However, you also had the jealousy creep in...

I am going to suggest that you read Co-Dependent No More...

It is a fantastic book...

You will learn a lot....