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First, I don't think Sandi is going anywhere. I think most would say she is vital to the board.

Second, it was dumb misunderstanding. Sandi assumed I was talking about her being "twisted." I clarified my point in that I was talking about the WAW.

But what got Sandi riled up was when I said I take her advice cautiously. I take ANYONE's advice on here with a grain of salt. Why? Each of us only allows the board to see what we want to see. We censor ourselves and present things from our side, it's natural. Consequently any advice we receive is from a person who does the same. We never know what is going on in that person real life when the give advice on the board.

But the reality is our situations are complex, but in the end I know my situation and my wife better than any one this board. It's that unique understanding got me to where I am today (in case you are interest, it's laid out in the piecing section).

to paraphrase, it's not Sandi...it's me.

Lastly, Sandi and I gave basically the same advice for SL. So the end goal should be trying to help people.

Fell off the 180 wagon the past couple days. W had many meetings with boss, and received lots of emails, which interupted our conversations and made her smile and giggle. She really got dressed up as well. She's noticed I'm not happy, though I'm not sure she knows why.

Falling into that bad dynamic again.

Thought the advice I got here - to find out what exacty is going on - was good and would tell me wether or not to confront. But I'm pessimistic. All I really have are things that are open to interpretation - emails I think are inappropriate, a tendency to be too friendly, too close, and too flirtatious. Her being defensive of him, and calling him "smart", "funny", and "really good to her". But that's mostly my opinion and perhaps the opinion of the few people I've comfided in. I snooped in her emails - - know, I know; trust me it only adds to the suffering, but I think it was time - they are very friendly and constantly complimentary, and some seem to have a double meaning, but that's it. The most solid evidence are the emails saying "Thinking of you" and "wish you were here". One during her trip requests his room# at 2:40 am one morning. Others suggest they take the office tubing, or to play pool, etc.

Together, they paint the picture of a budding EA - to me anyway. But each could easily be explained away in an argument.

I guess what I have is a collection of gut feelings and observations of her changing behaviors.

Probably, the most I could make stick in a confrontation would be that she's playing with fire and inconsiderate of my feelings. She wouldn't change anything except to she I am jealous and controlling and push it underground so as not to have to deal with me. And, of course, she'd accuse me of not trusting her.

Oh, how I wish she would give a little thought to the no-win situation she's put me in.

If it weren't for a few friends and my therapist suggesting that I had reason to be concerned - their prevailing opinion is that probably no PA but perhaps unhealthy attractment of an budding EA - I would think I was losing it and imagining all of this...hey, maybe I AM. All I know for certain is that I can't sleep or be productive at work, nor can I figure out what to do next.

Heard about the book "Not Just Friends" here. Got it and read it this morning. It's good, and seems to fit with the DB strategies. Right up front (pgs. 18-19, 28-29) it describes my situation. (Hope book title doesn't get censored) Describes everything I'd like my W to think about. Wish she'd read it....

Still, I am stressing a bit about my own sitch so sleep was difficult last night. From my addled sleep deprived brain comes these thoughts

So you suspect, there are indications from what is posted here, a ponderous mass of circumstantial evidence. My father used to tell me if it looks like, smells like, tastes like, then it probably is sh!t.

We’d all like a smoking gun. We don’t have one yet. So what are the most constructive things we can do? Confront? This will build anger and resentment and entrench them with each other deeper, so no, not a good idea. You know this you said this here.

We learn here to do things to become the better choice. That eventually our S will see we are the better choice and maybe try to establish a new R.

Even if they do not we have not failed for we have improved. We have become the better choice. We are the better choice.

It is heart wrenching and difficult to accept we may have to let go of our S, but if we do it will be after we come to understand they are no longer the person we loved once. It will be our choice to put this burden down, to be done.

So a suggestion prepare for the smoking gun, look for it, don’t ignore it if it is revealed, but do not obsess over it. Stop obsessing, do what you need to do to become the clear better choice.

I read somewhere in one of these threads she told you to be a man. This was vicious and cruel, and I suspect stated in anger, but she was telling you what to do.

Putting aside vicious and cruel, what from her point of view would the better man be? How would he behave? Who would he be? What would he do?

This is not about how to react to the EA, PA or OP. This is about being the better choice for a new R.

I disagree. Confronting and exposing affairs is designed precisely to drive the affair partners together, and to take the romanticism and mystique off of their relationship. By temporarily driving them together, you are allowing them to see each other's warts, faults and stresses, while YOU are busy becoming the better option, whether it's in THIS relationship or your future one(s).

People say "it will only drive them closer together." Um, that's the general idea.

Starsky

[edited by dbmod to add note: exposing the affair can be dangerous to your marriage and is NOT recommended DB advice]

I don't know JS.

I agree that in the end we have to make ourselves the better alternative to the OM. But as long as the OM is front and center how is that supposed to happen? If they are in the chemical induced fog of emotion they simple can't be rational.

If you think your W is just going to wake up one day and sees this, you are fooling yourself. Of course could always hope that the OP does something crappy to your W and she starts to turn, but you might as well hope to hit the lotto as well.

SL..your lack of confidence comes through in your posts. And I understand it oh so well, so I'm not trying to call you out. But I think you really need to think about what it means to be confident and strong. Work toward that goal. Part of that is, as JS says, not focusing on your W. Also STOP trying to explain away her behavior. Regardless of her true intentions with this guy, it is having a substantial impact on your marriage that should be enough.

As for any confrontation if she doesn't have respect for you why should care about your feelings? As I said before, from a professional standpoint she is acting really, really stupid. The boss is too, especially since he has a history.

your W's response -- defending the boss, accusing you of not trusting her, accusing you of being controlling/jealous - are right out of the EA playbook. If you talk, you need to be prepared to address those claims and be firm.

Think about it from the other side. Say you had a good female friend. She is ONLY your friend with no feelings because you love your W. You have lunch with this friend, you call, text and email. Maybe you do things together. You W tells you that she is uncomfortable with this friendship. What do you do?

Lastly, I'm guessing your W isn't a person who likes being told what to do. She will have to come to make any change with respect to her boss on her own.

Gentlemen, you are right. I wrote a longer reply, but erased it. Doesn't matter, really. I either have the conversation or not. I'm not even sure I care how it goes....

hmmmm....this thread disappeared. Did I say something wrong?

if W and boss were discussing a headstrong student and W says "I like a decisive women" and boss replies "me too......in theory", W smiles broadly while reading and erases this message (while she NEVER erases anything else)....does that mean anything? W is known in office as the decisive one.

Hi everyone,

Since I arrived on this board I've gotten some great advice and had the chance to read not only the BDing books but several others that have been really useful to me. I've also had a safe place to vent and to realize that I'm not alone in all of this. For that I am grateful. Harrier, Sandi2, CS, JTB, and JSed, thanks folks, I appreciate you following my story.

There are four possibilities for me now:

(1) there's an A, and it stays undercover
(2) there's an A, and it's revealed
(3) there's no A, and I worry and ruin my M over very little
(4) there's no A, and I get on with a good life

Which senario couldn't I live with? #3. I'd never forgive myself.

If it's #1 or #2, then eventually I'll have a decision to make.

If it is #4, why waste this precious time worrying about it?

Clearly, I have a lot of work to do to recover from the bad situation I found myself in, to forgive my W, build my confidence back up, and become the man I was and want to be again. That's all I can control. So let's get to it.

I'll no longer try to win back my Ws respect. I've come to the conclusion that spouses either give their respect, thereby filling us up with the confidence and strength to lead and care for our families, or they don't. I've not done anything remotely "bad" enough to make my W withdraw her respect - that was her choice. She could have very easily addressed any problems, asked for what she needed, and watched as I took care of those issues. "I love you. I need X, Y, Z. You are my man and I know you can do this for us." - that would have done it. But that was her choice.

Also, the ups and downs of all this have been brutal. It has occurred ot me that, while some ups and down are the norm, that mine might be a bit unusual. Never thought I'd be in this situation, but I seem to have plenty of company. My current therapist, while a good guy who has helped me, doesn't seem to specialize in this sort of thing. So I'm so going to put him on the bench for now, and try someone else. I'm pretty sure his business won't go under.

I'm going to think of my W as the wonderful, caring person I fell in love with. I'm going to treat her that way (while maintaining some boundaries) and think of her as having lost her way (teething, perhaps?). I'm going to think of our past conversations as our mistakes and what she said as the words of someone who was scared or lost. I'm going to try and look at things as an outsider, and detach some (going to the balcony, ala Wm Ury in his book "Getting to Yes"). If needed her respect, maybe she just needs my calm presence. And, don't worry, I won't be a doormat either.

I've asked my current therapist if there are other's in similar situations as me - he laughed and said, oh yeah. Some don't have insurance that pays for sessions and struggle with the payments - so I asked him about donating to start a little fund to help pay for initial sessions for other men dealing with what we are dealing with (not alot of $$, I'll have to raise some money). It's just something I want to do. I can't imagine how hard this would be without the help I've gotten.

Finally, I'm going to take a little break from posting about my situation here. I'll be around, but for a little while...if I can manage it....I'm going to do more reading than posting.

-SL.