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Denver, Was there anything your 1st wife could have said or done different that would have made you change your mind?

Denver or me?

Said? No.
Done? Maybe.

I do not want to use someone else's threads to answer questions about my past, Also my answers/reasons are mine, and likely aren't going to the same as your spouse's.

Denver,

I have no interest in beating you further. I think that the others have made excellent points, but I am kind of hoping to walk through this with you.

First, forget about what your friends think because it truly is meaningless. Your friends don't have to live with your pain and they don't have to live with your decisions. If they did, I would be a lot more interested.

You are very much stuck on these vows, so let's talk about that. I know that you said that you were not religious, however, these vows are biblically based. So, let's get into this. The Bible charges the man and the woman with certain duties. The man is charged with loving your wife like Christ loved the Church. Did you love your wife like that? You've already said that you didn't. He is also charged with being the leader in his home. He is essentially to set the standard of behavior. The vows were already broken at that point. She wasn't loved and cherished. And, unfortunately, you already admit to the standard of behavior that was set. You expected her to take your role in the marriage and it doesn't work like that. People who used religious law to beat down others while not living up to the spirit of the law were called Pharisees. They could not understand Jesus's teachings because they were very much interested in the letter of the law but had no interest in the spirit of the law. Jesus was very much interested in the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. The spirit meant everything. The letter meant nothing.

At this point in time, after much reflection, you are asking that the vows mean the same to her that they do to you. You are asking for a renewal of those vows in essence. How do you know that the renewal wouldn't mean just as much to her? We cannot use the vows as a reason for feeling that we are "right" when we broke those same vows. But we can ask that we "renew" those vows and do better.

With that said, you are dealing with some very real pain. The issue isn't the vows. I think if you look at it objectively, the vows were broken by both of you. The pain is the confirmation of an A. Right now, you are not sure that you can live with that. You know what? That is completely valid. Those feelings are very real and they deserve attention. You are very hurt and that deserves attention. You do not need to justify how you feel by talking about the breaking of vows. You feel what you feel because finding out about the A was devastating. People here are not going to agree with you about either your W or you being more right than the other (for good reason). But what they can do is perhaps help you with what you are feeling about the A if you want to talk about that.

I wish I knew how to help you. I really can see how much pain that you are in right now and I just want to hug you. And seriously, I make no judgment because I have made huge mistakes and broke my own vows, I have used the same arguments you have and believe me, I was definitely self-righteous. Put it away, Denver and try to deal with the base of your issue rather than the justification for why you have the issue.

I'm praying for you, Denver. I hope that you can find some peace.

LIS

Thanks Jack and LIS. Well said. I'm definitely going to go back to both of your posts when I feel better. I think that you are both very, very right.

I have an update and I need thoughts on where this stands...

This is going to be long. Sorry. Please read though. I need insight.

W went to St. Louis for a singing gig this weekend. She left on Friday morning. I had asked her on Thursday night (the night of our dinner) if she would let me know when she was there safely. She said that she would. Friday afternoon I did receive a text from her telling me that she was there and situated. Later on Friday, she texted me about an issue with SS. I called and talked to her about that and about what she was doing on Friday night in St. Louis bc the gig was on Saturday night. She was going out with a female friend of hers who is a dancer for W's group.

I had asked W on Thursday night if OM was going to be in St. Louis on this gig with her. She said that he would be but not flying in until Saturday. I had asked her if anything was going to "happen" with OM while in St. Louis. She promised me that nothing was going to "happen" and reiterated that she and OM have put there R on the back burner until she and I figure out what we're going to do. W did tell me that she planned to talk to OM about she and I's conversation on Thursday night. That she wanted to be honest with him.

Saturday, I picked up SS from W's sister and had him for the night. W texted me late on Saturday night letting me know that she was back at the hotel. I responded telling her goodnight. I didn't hear back from her.

Sunday morning W called me to let me know that she was at the airport and that she would call me about picking SS up. She said that she planned to go see her grandmother who is gravely ill at a nursing home. W's sister was suppose to pick W up from the airport.

W calls me later on Sunday afternoon to tell me that her plane just landed and that it would be about 45 minutes before she could meet me to pick up SS. I told her that I was excited to see my niece (W's sis's D). She told me that her sister wasn't with her, but that she was close to my house. That I could go meet her and W would just meet us all in 45 minutes. This bothered me bc I knew W's sis was not giving her a ride home from the airport. W did not tell me who was giving the ride home and I did not ask. It could have been OM who does not live close to W and I, or it could be another guy in her band who does live close who was also in St. Louis (I have NO concerns about this guy). I told W that I would just wait for her at the coffee shop where I already was.

So W meets me at the coffee shop. I had worked myself up into a frenzy being upset about W's sister not being the person bringing her home from the airport. When W arrived, I was short with her. I gave SS a hug as she was parking her car and began to walk him over to her car. She got out. We said 'hello'. I tried to act "as if", but i was feeling very irritated. I don't know if she felt that from me or not.

W said that her sister was going to now meet her at the coffee shop so that I could see my niece. We chit chatted a bit about her Saturday night. She told me that after she got back to the hotel, a few of the band members had drinks so she was really tired. I did not ask if OM was one of those band members. There were 18 on the gig in St. Louis.

W's sister arrived. I said hello to my niece and my BIL. I then walked W over to her car while her sister went in and got a coffee. I told W 'goodbye' and began to walk away towards my car. She stopped me and asked me if I wanted to go see her grandma bc they don't expect her to live much longer. I did have a R with her grandma... not a close R, but I knew her.

I told her that I didn't know and asked her if it would be weird. W responded by saying that everything is 'weird' right now. I told her that I'd like to and would definitely want to go to the funeral. I told W that I would follow her and her sister over to the nursing home.

By the time we got to the nursing home, I had talked myself down from being upset and was able to act 'as if'. We had to wait about 30 minutes before we could see her grandma. W, SS, SIL and I went to the game room. SS and I played a game of pool. W and I joked with each other a little. She was really tired from her trip.

We visited with W's grandma for about an hour. It was emotional for me bc she has really gone down hill since I last saw her.

W and I hugged and told each other that we'd talk later as we got into our cars to leave the nursing home.

W and I did not have any more contact on Sunday.

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Last Wednesday, the day before W and I's dinner where PA was confirmed, I had ordered flowers to be sent today to W's classroom where she teaches.

W called me this afternoon to thank me for the flowers. She seemed genuinely thrilled about them. She said that the office had called her classroom and told her that she had a package that was big so she had better send one of the boys in her classroom down to get it. She was really happy.

We talked for a few minutes. I don't remember how she transitioned into this, but she mentioned that she wasn't doing anything tonight. That she thought that she would go home, grade papers and go to bed. She brought up that she was never a big valentine's day person anyway. I told her that she and SS could meet me for dinner if she felt comfortable with it. She told me that she was going to see her grandma again. I said ok, that there was no pressure. She said 'well, I'm just not sure how to be right now after our conversation on Thursday night'.

I said, 'well, we probably need to have another talk, huh?' She said 'yes.' Then she asked me how I was feeling about everything. I told her that I was going through a range of emotions. She said that she understood.

I told her that I meant everything that I said the other night, and that I had decided that the new information had not changed any of that. That I still wanted to work on our M. I did tell her that I still need to sort through my feelings on the issue of the OM. She said that she again understood and that she figures that I will need quite a bit of time to completely get through that.

W then said that she doesn't know how to move forward (or something along these lines). She asked me how I felt about OM still being in her life as a friend while things are still in limbo with us. She explained that she doesn't want to just 'shoo' him off while we decide whether or not we are really working on M. She explained that OM is good to her and that she would still want to give him a chance if we decided not to work on things. She reiterated that once we decide to really work on things that there will be NO R bw she and OM.

I explained that I have really tried to give her all of the space and time that she needs during our entire S and that I was not trying to pressure her now. I then told her that if it were up to me, the sooner that we both commit to our M and begin to work on it, the better. That if it were up to me that it would be now.

W agreed and said that she hates having her life so messed up. That she is not a patient person and that she just wants to know what direction that she is going.

Then W started to talk about how she would have to have a conversation with OM and that she dreaded that. That it is always hard to hurt someone's feelings. She told me that as hard as it was for me to hear, OM is really good to her and is really hoping that things work out bw them. As hard as it was, I validated all of her feelings, but I also told her that, as she knew, I could not help her with this part of things. She said that knew that. We got off the phone with her telling me that she'd call me later to let me know about dinner tonight.

-----------

About an hour ago, W called me and told me that she was not up for dinner. That she was upset bc OM and SS had done some "really nice things" for her at her house for valentines day. She told me that she is feeling really badly and just struggling with a bunch of emotions that she is experiencing. She began to cry a little.

W told me:

"I feel like I should give us a chance with everything that you are saying"

"But then I look at our track record and I don't know"

"OM is really good to me"

"That he has treated her like she wanted me to treat her all our years together"

"That she needs some time to sort through her feelings"

She apologized and acknowledged that what she was telling me was hard for me to hear.

I validated and validated. I told her that I understood that it was scary for her to trust what I was saying about how things will be different in our M. That I understood that my actions would have to speak louder than words. That I would work for the rest of my life to prove to her that I was being sincere. That as hard as it was for me to talk about, that I understood how it is hard for her concerning OM. That I know that I didn't give her some of the things that she needed. That I know that I f'd up so I have to own up to that.

I reiterated that I am not going to pressure her about anything.

She thanked me for listening and thanked me for not pressuring her.

Our conversation was happening as she was driving to her grandma's nursing home. She told me that she was there. I said 'okay'. W said that she'd 'be in touch soon'.
--------------

I went from being on top of the world this afternoon to feeling really let down and deflated tonight.

This is hell. I hate feeling that I am competing for OM with my own W. I guess that's the reality of the sitch now though.

What does everyone think about these events?

BITS
Denver

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UPDATE above...

Sorry I'm so impatient guys... I'm really feeling down right now for some reason.

Yup, that's it in a nutshell. And, I know it hurts to hear it, but you don't compare well. Why not? Because she is comparing him today to the memory of you. The memories that are stuck in her head. I know you want to give her a new vision of you, but this is what is in her head. And she is frightened. Frightened to believe in a promise that you will be different, when she already thinks she knows how you are.

Love is a decision. And she is undecided. She can decide to love you, but to do that she has to commit to you and trust you and forgive you. it's not just love. It's all four things all at once.

On the other hand, he is a clean slate. She already has built some trust with him, she doesn't need to forgive him, and she doesn't have to commit to him right away either.

I still think your best chance would come from going to a Retrouvaille weekend, or another marriage strengthening program that has intensity in a short time. A strong weekend could give her the chance to see the new you, to explore the problem areas, and leave the old baggage behind. Weekly MC sessions lack the intensity; they help, but they just meander on. You need a good strong 2 day talk it all out, find your bearings again weekend. I've heard good things about a 2 day intensive with Michele.

I recommend that you ask her to go with you to a weekend and give it a chance.

Denver...I think you did a great job

this is hard for her
to decide to trust you and give you a chance

it is hard for you to hear and live through as well

you did a great job validating...no pressure

this is unconditional love
for the good of her instead of for the good of you

nicely done

(even though it hurts like a beyatch)you did the right thing

Denver....

Breathe.....pick yourself up and dust yourself off.

This has been an emotional day. If I'm being honest, you are competing with the OM right now. She is in a battle within herself. She's heard every word you have said to her but she still doesn't trust you as she has said. Trust is earned in time and thru action. She is afraid things will go back to what it was even tho she has seen changes in you. If she decides to agree to the R, I don't think it's a good idea for her to move back in. IMHO, I think you are awesome and have made fantastic strides, but you aren't there yet. Patience, Patience. She's cracked the window for you and you want to push it all the way down. She will run...where? You know.

Don't sabatage things. They are going so well for you. I would give anything to be where you are.

She is being guarded and rightly so. You keep doing all the right DB'g skills. The application is the hardest but you are making things happen.

Maybe you need to go out and by a pair of leopard print shoes!! All kidding aside, recognize the positive. Think about where you were when you first joined this forum. You are fab and you are doing fab!

(((Denver)))
I have no words of wisdom for you my friend. Only prayers and well wishes. I hope they are enough to tip the scale in your favour.

phew! You are a better man than me. With that said I will re-read your post and think about my answer. In the meantime I will update my thread but I will come back to yours and post. I have to battle with my old self and my new self....ever heard the song by MegaDeath "Sweating Bullets" the first verse is "Hello me, meet the real me"

I will say that you did a hell of a job and if you were as similar in personality to me as I think you were then that conversation was not easy.............that is growth my friend.