Divorcebusting.com Forums Divorcebusting.com Archives For Newcomers Archives Chapter 3 the end? Or new beginning?

I know that you don't want to be 'friends' with your W. Neither do I with mine. But we have to crawl before we can walk. Right? It sounds to me that there is a lot of healing going on on both sides when you and your W talk. That is what I am talking about when I say that you are having opportunities to show her the new you.

BITS
Denver

Ok so we had the DB session today and I know that a lot of you were wondering how it was going to go so I wanted to give you guys/gals the update. If your familiar with a celebrity roast you'll have a good idea of what the session was all about. This was the 2stepboogie celebrity roast!!

Basically I called the DB coach first just to give her an idea of what was going on and that W would be joining us. Gave her a brief update (about 5 min long) DB coach said she normally recommends the WAS spend about 30 minutes with just her and would give W that option. I called W and she answered made the introduction and DB asked her if she would like to just talk to her without me on the line. W said "No he can stay on. I am not going to say anything I haven't told him"

Then the conversation started I'll skip the pleasantries and just get to the main facts.

W "When we first started dating I was young very young and we could talk about anything and everything. He made me feel special because he cared. Everything changed when we got custody of D, not because of D I love her it was the fact that mom moved in two weeks after the fact. At that point I stopped mattering and everything was the way mom wanted. It started with small things then it escalated, from the dishes to the way the silverware was placed to the way D was being raised. He always took moms side on everything. I did not matter and my opinion did not matter. I like to have a plan H just likes to wing it, why wouldn't he, mom was going to take care of everything. I felt as though it was three against one and I was the odd man out. I tried telling him I tried screaming at him I tried not saying anything. It is not like I woke one day and said I don't want to be married anymore this was a progression. Even at the last moment I gave him a way out and asked him to move his mom out. He told me no. I've made mistakes also but I am a people pleaser and I pleased everyone but no one was looking out for me, and after awhile it takes a toll on you. H says all the right stuff when I talk to him but H has always been a good talker. I don't know that I trust him and my happiness can't depend on him anymore"

This basically went on for about an hour. There was a laundry list of things I did wrong most of which I agree with some of which I don't but the entire time I kept my mouth shut and let her talk.

At the end the DB couch asked W how she felt about talking to her again and W said " I don't know. I would be weary. I have to protect myself"

DB Coach asked me how I would interpret W feelings about the M.

I said "I think she was miserable, felt used, and taken advantage of"

W "I wouldn’t say miserable that is a strong word. Taken advantage of definitely. H is a good man and a good guy but he stopped being good in a way that mattered to me and stopped caring about me. Now I have to take care of me"

Over all I feel like a truck ran over me! The thing with my W is that most of her comments don't come from anger or resentment they are well thought out and logical. This is the part that say's her decision is final.

After the call W and I spoke for about 20 min. I said "wow. I made you feel so bad"

W "I am over it. You made mistakes I made mistakes. I am sorry if I was very harsh with my criticism but it was the truth"

M "I am glad you were honest"

W "I don't know about us talking every day. She suggested we should be friends to see if there is anything here but I don't know because in order to be friends I would have to trust you and I don't. I skeptical talking to her again I'll have to think about it. I just don't know if this is something someone can fix with a couple of hours on the phone. At the same time I don't want to give you any hope and then take it away from you because things don't pan out the way you expected. I don't think that would be fair for you"

M "I understand. I will continue to talk to her and you are always welcomed to join in if you like. If you want to hang up right now and never call me again that is fine with me also. I will decide what level of hope I have no one can determine that for me. I will reach my points at different times than you. You might be there already, I don't know but I know where I am and when my time comes to move on I will. I don't spend my days waiting for you to call or hoping you are going to change your mind. I live my life as it comes I don't know what is going to happen tomorrow let alone in six months from now. If you would like to call and talk I would answer. My hope doesn't depend on your actions they depend on mine. I hope you understand"

W "I do. I just don't want to let you down because I know you feel like we can make this work and I am not as sure as you are."

M "understood. Well I know you have to go to work so I will let you go. Have a good day, as good as you can have with the job you hate"

W "ok thank you. I work till 7 tonight. Hope you feel better. Goodbye"

So there you have it. Basically I really don't know. I would much rather she be pissed off at me and hate me but the fact she is not and all her points are valid and well thought out makes me believe she is sticking to her guns.

One point I forgot to mention, after the DB session I told my W

M "You are a good woman. You put up with a lot"

W "I know I was a good woman. You didn't"

M "Well I always said I was a lucky guy and you were a good W and a great woman. There is a difference between telling you this and actually knowing why I believe this. The difference is now I KNOW why you were a good woman and a GREAT W before I just felt like you were, but now I understand the feeling behind the comment"

W "I just wanted you to acknowledge that and you never did."

I figured I would add that part. Felt it was important

HEY HEY!

Major good stuff!!!!

She got on the call and really talked to Jody!!! That's huge!!!

You don't have to agree with everything you said. WASs love to look back and focus on the negatives, even do a little history rewriting. Even without that though you two will have different perspectives on some things. But that's a lot of insight to where she is now.

I can't remember where the 4 phases are listed on this site, but they are: reducing negative emotions; building friendship; rekindling romance; and recommitment. You can't jump straight to recommitment, and I LOVE your comment about how you aren't sure you would want her to come running back RIGHT NOW if she called. That's a very healthy attitude.

When my XH tried his brief half-a$$ed R during one of his break-ups with OW I let him set the pace and he set a pretty quick one got overwhelmed and freaked out (he later admitted it was because things were going too well and he realized things could actually work - ain't that ironic) and ran back to OW.

Now, you may not think that the convo really got you anywhere, but you won't see the effects for a while. In the meantime, expect that she might withdraw and process what's going on. Don't jump to any conclusions if you don't hear from her, or even if you hear anger. When the WAS really starts to see the changes you've made a lot of "too little, too late" and "why didn't you listen to me 3 years ago" type outbursts come out. Keep in mind that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy. You have to be connected to someone to get angry at them, to let them get under your skin.

Hang in there!

2Step - I really think that you and I are in a very similar phase of this process. Our W's still love us, but just don't know if they can trust us not to continue to inflict the type of wounds to them that we have in the past.

The underlying facts or our stich's may be different, but the type of pain that we have inflicted on our W's is VERY similar... the way that we have made them feel. My W has told me that she often felt that it was 2 against 1 (my SS and I vs. her). Even the fact that there is a step child involved in your sitch... which I didn't realize was not your W's daughter until today. SS make things particularly difficult too bc there is always that sense that someone, either the step child or the step parent, doesn't completely fit into the puzzle. Mixed families are all that more difficult to make succeed.

In any case, I think that you and I are past, or almost past, the phase that MichelleLT described as "reducing negative feelings" and into that developing friendship phase. We have to continue with this bc this is what our W's need right now. We need to have patience.

Give you W time to realize that her unhappiness is NOT all the result of your actions or inactions. I honestly believe that when my W left she blamed me for all of her unhappiness. I also think that she is beginning to realize that I was NOT solely responsible. Your W will too. You just need to be there when she does.

Your W still loves you A LOT. It is very clear from her words. Just be there for her right now man.

Now, if you'd just cut and past this to my thread to tell me the same thing.

BITS
Denver

Michelle, Denver

Thank for the insight. I was a little discouraged from all the negatives in the convo at first I was thinking "man did I do anything right?" But I realize that that was her perspective and I needed to accept it. She didn't completely rule out another DB session which I thought was a good thing. I really do appreciate another set of eyes and you guys really lift my spirit. Denver your sit and mine are very similar I have been following since day one.

Michelle as for contact how's this

W " I hate my job! Oh and that's your fault too! LOL"

M "LOL but of course it is lol so is the sh!tty weather you are having and world hunger ;)"

W "I wouldn't go as far as world hunger....lol close tho LOL"

M "If you hate your job that much check out this place they might be hiring (Link to her old company website)"

W "yeah ok lol"

M " Now that was pretty funny. I even copy and pasted the link for you"

That was about 15 minutes ago. I figured I would not hear from her after this morning for at least a few days.

Interesting. Almost seems like she was doing a temperature check on you. To see if you were angry or wouldn't reply to her after the things she said this am. Almost like she's testing the person you are trying to be.

To reply to your earlier comment about her not trusting herself with you. Trust doesn't magically appear, it must be earned. And words are hollow. Actions are what matter. You have to go back to being the person she fell in love with, but a more mature, wiser version.

The fact that she contacted you and didn't feel the need to withdraw is very interesting. Definitely a bit atypical, but then in some ways not. The WAS is always most comfortable when the LBS is still on the string. When they know you would take them back, do anything for them. So periodically they like to check in and see how detached (or not) you are lol.

The fact that you could joke about her job and such is great though. A sense of humor goes a long way through all of this. Both for your own sanity and for your dealings with the WAS.

Personally, I would have left that last text/IM off. Especially since she might see your text about applying back at her old job as pressure to return to her old life, you and the job, etc. (I'm assuming the job is back where you are, please correct me if I'm wrong). But the rest of the convo was good.

It's one thing to leave the door open, it's another to try and lure them through or worse, push them that direction. You can always answer if she asks that you want to try and make it work and believe it can, but (and this is an important "but") that the most important thing is her happiness and that you will be fine no matter what she decides. Since her chief complaint seems to be that you were "controlling" and didn't listen to her opinion you have to be very consistent in doing a 180 on that type of behavior.

Good for you on keeping your expectations low. It's okay to hope for the best, but always be prepared for the worst.

I agree completely about the LBS comment. I thought about this a lot and was wondering if a change would make sense. If she constantly feels like I would take her back what incentive does she have to really make any changes? What would her reaction be if she felt she was losing me, the way I lost her? How do I even accomplish this and not ruin the progress I have made?

As far as the last text comment I agree. I really meant it as a joke but after I sent it I could see how it would come across as pressure. Too bad, she really liked that job.

I think that's one of the reasons the Last Resort Technique advises no pressure, no pursuit, and limited contact. It gives them a chance to miss you.

She'll be much more receptive to R if she comes to the conclusion that she misses her old job, she misses D, and she misses you all on her own. She has to see that life without you isn't everything she thought it would be. That she still has to deal with work and life stresses, but now she doesn't have a partner to lean on the way she did before.

It's a thin line to walk while still keeping the door open. And it's different with every WAS and LBS because every M was different before the S too.

So, some things you can try (don't know if you've heard these before or not): end the conversation and leave her wanting more. If you have to go to work, or pick up D, or even if you guys have been on the phone a while and you feel it's a good time to make an exit, just say good-bye and get off the phone. Don't let her keep you on the phone as long as she wants all the time. When she texts you, don't reply right away. Wait 5/10/30 minutes unless it is an emergency. Try NOT to be in the situation you were in this am where you sent the last text, unless it's "gotta run ttyl" lol. Take D to a movie and turn off your phone.

I'm just brainstorming. Some of these you already do sometimes, I'm not sure if it's conscious or not. Others you might want to try, or you might have a much better idea since you know your W best.

How much do you charge? Is it by the post or by the hour? LOL good stuff. Some I do better than others. Sometimes I try to cut the phone call off but she wants to keep going. Then she always gets me at the end and says "O its late. Well I'll talk to you sometime" Then I hang up and say. "Damn she got me again" I have to get better at that.

Almost all contact is initiated by her. I seldom contact her if at all.

The more I look at my W she would be a very good DBer. She response to my text in 30 minutes somtime an hour or two. She almost always ends the calls. She always seems happy except when talks about her job. In the rare occassion that I do call for something she will call me back in a few hours.

She is DBing my A$$ while I am trying to DB her. I have a new found respect for her LOL