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A, whether your sister said it or not and whether h chose to heed it or not doesnt really matter anymore.

We teach people how to treat us. And you need to show your family the independent, strong woman you are becoming. Eventually, they will see it and respect it.

As for your h, a little tap of a 2 x 4. You had expectations. You expected a certain reaction from him regarding the cats. And whether his reaction was because of your sister or not, when you have expectations, you are sure to be upset when they arent met.

A, do what you need to do for you. If you do better not being in contact with him, then dont.

If you do, then show him that you are capable of dealing with things on your own. Show him that you have become the person you were meant to be.
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But really, just live your life. Keep moving forward on your path and worry not about him or his reactions, ya know?

Alright, H just spent 2 hours face to face in my house. He showed me the email she sent. It said "please refrain from contacting A. because any time you are nice to her or show emotion it gives her hope."

THIS IS NOT TRUE. This is her interpretation of things. Not mine. As much as 2 months ago, I told my psychiatrist and my family that I was through with thinking that we were fated to be together and that I had no more hope that we would reconcile. That if something happened down the road, it would happen like 5 years from now, and that I was not clinging to hope anymore.

I made this beyond clear to everyone.

She told him to stop giving me money to help with expenses as well because "A. needs to learn how to live on her own without your help."

Financially, I have been paying our joint debt--the mortgage--along with all taxes, insurance, and interest. He pays none of it. If he has given me money towards home repairs, I don't see this as "not living on my own", but as justified based on the fact that I solely carry his debt right now. I didn't ask my lawyer to work that into settlement either.

So now I'm even more bothered by what she told him.

What can I tell you? In person, he started to tell me that there were several times he wanted to contact me over the past month, particularly over the holidays, and that he didn't because of her email. He said on our anniversary, he wanted to text me "I'm sorry." He didn't because he said he thought that it would give me hope because it was what she said would happen, so he settled for the other text which he knew was badly worded and distant. He said when I didn't respond on our anniversary to that text, he contacted my sister again to ask if I was ok. He told her he was very worried about me that day and especially since I didnt' respond. I said 'but your text said you don't have to respond." He said "I know but I still thought you would." She said back to him "A. is fine. Please leave her alone."

He said on the days leading up to Christmas Day, his heart was breaking thinking about me being alone. He cried when he said this. He could barely get the words out. He said that his hiding his emotions from me even caused a fight where the OW blew up at him for how he was acting those days. He said he was a wreck thinking about what he had done to me. He said he wanted to contact me but since my sister said 4 days before Christmas "leave her alone" he did not.

I said why would you listen to my family? He said "I never see you; I don't know how you are. She said you were having setbacks caused by me and my contact. She told me that I was hurting you more."

After awhile our conversation went into other areas. Namely, the breakup and problems long ago. I told him about the letter from 9 years ago. He said he forgot all of that. But then later he did acknowledge his anger problem. I was telling him about a quote for a paper I'm writing about a character from a TV series. I said the guy says, "I don't know where the anger comes from, I see myself and I don't know how to stop it." And my H just started to cry spontaneously.

There were several times he showed real emotion. I haven't seen this in 8 months. He said several times that he has doubts all the time. But that she is "good for him" and calls him on his flaws. I said "I did too." He said "but I had shown you a new side of who I wanted to be when I left the first time and you wouldn't accept it." I said this was true. He said "so I came back and tried to just be the old guy I was, and to be perfect for you, until I couldn't do it anymore. Then I just wanted to give up. But I wasn't going to leave you. I didn't have the guts. I didn't want to be the bad guy. So I tried to make you hate me. My anger and rage and my way of treating you, I was trying to make you kick me out. I thought it was the only way. But you wouldn't do it."

I said "you had to know I wouldnt'." He said, "I didnt' know it at first. I thought I could make you hate me enough to kick me out. But you didn't."

And I said "and you resented me for that."

He said "No I didn't resent you. I just wanted out."

I said "why did you want out?" He said "I felt trapped. I felt like I didn't have feelings of love for you and I didn't know what to do. Then I met her and I was powerfully attracted to her. Other women didn't exist in my world when things were good between us. When they weren't, I noticed one."

I said "but you could have said something. You could have said you weren't feeling love for me. You could have said we have a serious problem. We need help."

He said "I didn't want to try." I said "why?" He said "because I didn't want to do the work to try because I didnt' think the outcome would be any different. I didn't think things would ever change."

I said "but when you kissed her and confessed, and I said I'd still take you back if we just went to counseling and you stopped seeing her, you still bailed. Why?"

He said "because you had never shown the ability to forgive me last year when I left the first time (this is true, a week or so before he kissed her I had said I hadn't fully forgiven him and was still harboring anger) and I figured that you would say it but it would never happen."

So I said "so you were afraid you'd lose her if you tried with me, and you might lose me anyway, so you hedged your bets and tried with her instead as she was more of a sure thing."

He said "no. she is less of a sure thing. You were much more the sure thing. I chose her because I have never gambled in my life. I took a gamble. I was trying to do the opposite of what I always do. I plan. I think of the future. I chose to stop doing that. That's why I chose her."

So with that "settled", I asked about the anger. I said "now that you're out of the marriage, has your anger and such gone away." He said "no." I said "but you blamed our marriage." He said "I know." I said "and it's still there." And he said "at times." I said "where does the anger come from?" He said "any time I don't feel in control of my life."

He says that OW has seen the anger several times. He says he feels he can recognize when it's coming on and keep it in check sometimes. I said "you have two types of anger: anger towards yourself and anger towards your partner. Has she seen anger towards her?" He said "not really." I said "don't you think she will?" He said "I recognize when it comes on and I stop it."

I said "doesnt' this still make you a pleaser". He said "I'm working on that." "How?" I said. "I just am," he said.

I said "are you going to regress (because he is maintaining that he is better now)?" He said "I don't know."

He said he is happy with her and she is good for him. He said he isn't happy with the situation and has regrets. He said he feels horrible many times about what he did and then his brain tells him that's the cowards' way, living in fear, and that he needs to get past those feelings and live in the present and not in the past or let the past affect his present.

He said that many times other men tell him he should be happy he is divorcing and try to run me down, and he says "I don't understand these people. This was a failure. I'm not happy about it." He said that he has no more friends than before, that he has only her and two other women friends from before. He said he doesnt' want more friends, particularly guy friends, because they are rude and obnoxious and say insensitive things about divorce. I said "you're putting all your eggs in one basket--one person." He said "yes." I said "and isn't that what got us both into this mess?" He said "that's who I am."

He said his relationship with his parents is better than before--that his mom loves the OW and is talking about how this means she'll get grandchildren out of him. He said "that won't happen." I said "what if she wants them." He said "she doesn't." (so my suspicions were confirmed that the lack of contact with me from his parents comes from their accepting this woman in that they like her better than me). He said "they won't let us stay in the house overnight though.

I said "whenever they let you, and you sleep in the bed that you had sex with me in many a time, I hope you can't get an erection." Then I laughed. Sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)

He told me she is very insecure about him having contact with me even though she tries to act like she is ok with it. He told me that he was really bothered by what to think about the Christmas gift I gave him but that she said she wasn't, that he should take it as a gesture of good faith. I said "did you put more significance to that gift than I meant?" He said "Obviously I did if you put it that way."

So anyway that's a huge amount of stuff but I thought for an MLCer he was fairly open and you guys might get something from reading it. The end result of this is that I think he is at least human and not so evil, that I feel better to know that he has some guilt or pain over this as opposed to indifference, that he clearly still has issues to deal with, and that I wouldn't have been able to make any progress as an individual if he hadn't ended the marriage. I was shocked at how emotional he got in terms of tearing up. I just haven't seen that level of honesty in a very long time.

I'm not taking hope from this, let me be very clear. I have no illusions of this conversation making any difference to him. But it made a difference to me, because at least it made me think that he has a conscience and he has remorse and that he's not celebrating the end of this marriage, despite having someone in his life already. I have been trying to figure out so much of this puzzle for so long to get some closure, and this actually helped me with that. Him? Not so sure. I felt better when he left. He said he didn't think he did the right thing by being that open with me. I said "do you feel like you betrayed her?" He just said "I was too honest with you and too open. I can't live in two worlds. I can't break another person's heart." I said "she could break yours. And with no one else in your life, where does that leave you?" He said "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it."

Just reflecting on the interaction with H. After he left, he sent me a text message saying it was good to talk to me and to take care and let me know what he could do about the sick cat.

I feel like in the end, I'm glad my sister intervened. It sort of forced this discussion btwn me and STBXH and I think both of us learned a lot in the conversation. Especially me. I feel a lot more centered now and peaceful about everything and feel that the OW had a lot less to do with us than I thought.

I don't derive false hope from this meeting. I asked him if we could hug when he left. I wanted to test myself. See if still felt attached to him/loved him. It was a very long hug--the only one that I've felt real emotion from him in 7 months. I learned onoe thing from it: I love him just as deeply as ever. I can't deny it. But I also know that it's over. It's all over. And because of that, I'm not going to start resurrecting communication with him. I'm still going to keep it to essential stuff only. The only difference is that I think this time around he'll be a little nicer in the way he talks to me than before, but I know it doesn't mean anything.

To be honest, I think it's going to take me years to stop loving him this deeply. I guess I have to just live with that. There is no way to just get rid of it. Not seeing a person for months doesn't make it go away.

Antonia, your conversation with your H has given you a real insight to his thinking. This is a precious gift and I am glad that it has left you feeling more centred. It has certainly provided food for thought and hopefully given you some alternative perspectives. Treasure this insight and love yourself for the warm and loving person that you are.

Cas

Antonia, I don't know whether you recall we started a dialgoue about whether your h was in full MLC or a life crisis transition? And someone intervened, and said it didn't matter. I was busy, and didn't want to go the argumentative route, and dropped it. Anyway, from this conversation, I am still not sure that your h is in full blown MLC. Compared with my husband [actually my ex-husband now] he is pretty human.

But he is still a very messed up human being and you are internalising his point of view. Most of us do this. We empathise, and see their point of view. He is having a 'blame externalities', take no personal responsibility, and pity party instead of facing up to who he is and the cowards way out he took from a difficult relationship.

Marriages hit bad times, and we have the opportunity to grow through that. You clearly had issues as a couple, and from various postings it sounds like your h has a lot of unresolved problems. It is possible that this woman can accommodate them, but it will be at great cost to herself. Let him go for now as far as you can. Until he sorts himself out and stops behaving like a spoilt teenager for whom life hasn't measured up to his expectations, you are better off without him. You can grow unaided, and have a good life. The suffering, horrible though it is, strengthens us.

Sadly we live in a society which validates people walking out of their marriages instead of working on them. Your husband's self esteem, too fragile to cope with your being more successful than him, is boosted by a younger woman who appears a success in ways that do not threaten him. Take away your support from him, emotionally remove yourself gently from his life. Deal with the cats yourself. When they leave us, they have to understand they have left, and that is their choice, and live with the consequences.

Less texting, no more gifts. Cool and dark from now on, for your sake.

Thanks Cas and Beatrice. Cas, this day did turn out to be a gift because I have a lot more clarity. I feel I understand better that he is really still in a dark place and that I can't pull him out of it, nor can she. I think he's got himself convinced she can. I haven't seen him cry since before the first time he left. He broke down at least 4 separate times, briefly, but spontaneously. He tried very hard to control it and he couldn't. He said he shouldn't have said all those things to me and been so honest. You know, I could take hearing everything. Easily. I think he didn't want to say them because saying them out loud makes them more real for him. I think that means I'm detached from the bomb now. I'm not detached from loving him, though.

I am internalizing his problems, yes. My heart broke all over again for him when I saw him this way. And if he came to me and asked for help (I know that he won't) I'd have a tough time saying no. Despite what he did, I saw that scared child again today, the kid who never had control due to his parents' abuse and lack of love, espcially when he said the anger comes from feeling a lack of control.

He seemed to pride himself on the fact that he was able to tell the OW that he came from an abusive background and had, as he put it, "an irrational mind" and "anger" at such an early stage of their relationship. He said "it took me a long time to tell you but I told her right away." But guess what? I got out my diary today. 23 years ago, he didn't tell me he was abused, but he did tell me that he was "insane" and "irrational" and "didn't want to get into a relationship because he never in his life wanted to hurt another person." He said to me today that he told her all this to begin their relationship. He's repeating the same patterns. This can't end well for him.

But he has to learn that himself. I'm sure that OW is just like I was, telling him no, it's ok, we can face anything. She'll learn. Even if she can face anything like I did, he will crack.

He said he can't get over the change in me, which was brought about by intense therapy and this board and my family and friends and anti-depressants. I said "I'm living proof that we can get rid of our bad patterns. It works." He said that was great but he just couldn't take my route. He couldn't go to therapy. "No way am I ever doing that or going on anti-depressants", and he also rationalized to great length why he doesn't need friends. He just kept saying "I'm going to handle it."

It breaks my heart to see this because he's going to fail. And when I see this, when I saw how conflicted and broken he is "just under the surface", I almost didn't care what he did to me because I know that I could and did handle what happened. I feel like he is headed for a big fall and I can't stop him and I can't intervene.

So yes, you're totally right. It has to be cool and dark for my sake. And I do agree with you, Beatrice, that I have wondered a long time myself if this is really MLC or a larger life crisis that was unresolved since the time he was young. He is desperately trying to hold both of use in the balance and "be good" and that doesn't seem like typical MLC to me. In fact, when I told him that I was moving away from feeling intense anger towards OW for what happened and instead feeling anger towards him, he said, "Oh no, don't do that to me." For a long time he kept saying I shoudln't blame her but I should blame him. Now that I've said I'm no longer blaming her for our issues, he reacted by telling me that the marriage was good for a long time and not to forget the good memories. That's not a guy in MLC. That's a guy trying to please everyone to stop the conflict around him that he has created.

I don't think they can face the inward journey that ADs and therapy can bring about. A bit/lot of who they are really doesn't want to face those demons.

My h had exactly the same reaction to the suggestion of many people around him, not just his immediate family, that he needed help, needed friends etc.

The reason I needed to understand the nature of the crisis was in order to know how to respond to certain behaviours, if that makes sense. Because my h is now largely irrational I never try and reason with him, although he is a highly intelligent man. Someone pointed out to me that what they feel, they believe to be true. A normal person feels something, and they consider if this is a reasonable way to feel, and whether it relates to any external reality. Even if we have sound instincts about things, we still do this. In their highly emotional state, our spouses don't. If they feel that the marriage was unhappy, for them it was. No evidence to the contrary will persuade them otherwise, until the feel otherwise.

They are ruled by feeling, not reason. To some extent we all are swayed by feelings, and sometimes our feelings are right, but not always. We have intellects as well as feelings, and there is a reason for this!

Antonia,

I am glad that you feel more centered after your conversation. I too feel that it will take a long time to stop loving H. Again, I am not sure where my journey will take me, but I know I will love him deeply for a long time.

I believe the insight you have gained, will help you on your journey. You are a strong person who has and will continue to handle things to the best of your ability. Keep your Faith!

God Bless!

After 2 days of processing all of this, I have learned a few things:

1. I have noticed that I've been getting sucked back into this hope that we'll reconcile based on the fact that he did show emotions towards me. I think I'm assuming that the emotions he is showing mean he still has feelings for me or is conflicted. But I shouldn't assume that because the emotions might just be coming from a place of guilt that is finally really starting to hit him or just hit him because of the holidays and the divorce being final in the next few weeks.

2. I have to stop myself from being sucked back into hope because I think it's going to hurt my progress and detachment.

3. The most important revelation I've had, though, is that I think I put my finger on my greatest fear: I fear that I will never again have a relationship with anyone because I will never be able to love anyone but him. I thought I had myself convinced I was losing that deep love for him, but all it took was a few hours of seeing what I remember as the real him and a hug for me to feel that not one ounce of my love for him is gone. It's like no matter what he's done and no matter that he doesn't love me any more, I can't stop the feelings for him, and they are just as strong as ever. This makes me feel like I'm looking at a very lonely life without a partner ever again, because I won't be able to love anyone ever again. It's like my heart is filled with him and there is no room for anyone else in there.

I thougth before that I would not be in a relationship again because I wouldn't trust another person and wouldn't want to be hurt. It's not that. It's that my love for him is so powerful that I feel like I won't ever be able to love anyone BUT him even if he is gone from my life.

I talked at length to a coworker in her 70s last night and she lost her husband to cancer 10 or more years ago. She can't love anyone but him. She's single by choice all this time after because she can't bring herself to love anyone else or even date anyone else. She told me I was so young that things would be different for me, but I don't believe her.

Do you guys have any advice?

Antonia. I think many of us here are in the same boat, if we fully acknowledge our feelings.

I don't think it is at all straightforward. We loved these people deeply for a long time; most of us were somewhat co-dependent with a rather needy person, so there is also some need in us we have to acknowledge, as well as love.

We were emotionally intimate with them, and that, as you get older, doesn't come so easily. Hard to start over, especially if one tends to be reserved

We were dumped in a particuarly brutal way, for another model, and there is also trauma to heal from.

Time helps, it really does, although the passage of time seems endless! Therapy helped me a lot, talking it over with someone who is pro-marriage, and pro us. Some therapists are not so sympathetic, but I had a great one, who made me see myself clearly, but who was kind and helped me to a better place. Get one you like - respect isn't enough.

And finally their failure to grow up, their unfailing nastiness [in my h's case] finally starts to seep through as well. You start to look at the person and see their faults.

Yes, more than 5 years later I still love my h; no I am not in a relationship, and I am fine about that, but I don't want him back, and I could imagine having another relationship in a way I couldn't even a year ago.

I don't need anyone else, and would only like someone if we make each other feel good about ourselves, and each other - no more angst and immaturity thank you! I have no overwhelming desire to wash another person's socks!

You will continue to feel better about yourself, with occasional set backs, and you will look back and see how you have grown and become truly self reliant. It is a great place to be, like a mountain top. It is the climb that is painful!