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After all those pages of conversation?

This is not to discourage you, but you aren't detaching and you certainly have not dropped the rope. For example, if she was a pesky relative or neighbor that you really didn't want to engage in conversation--b/c you were much too busy and frankly just didn't desire to discuss anything with her..........then, you would never get into a chatty contact. (That is, if you were detached or had DTR)

Yes, it's good that she initiates the TM....as long as she isn't looking for a fight about something. But you need to keep your sentences limited, words limited, and time limited. If she starts in to eat you out about something.....you end the TM right then. Don't be a jerk, just say you've got to go or whatever you'd tell a pesky neighbor. Don't rehash things in the past... or discuss how all the family stuff is now....especially in a TM. Why? B/c it is taking up your attention,your time, and [color:#FF0000]drawing you into her. If that rope is dropped....then she can't pull you in to her. Does that make sense in what I'm trying to say?

Imagine how things might have been handled if you were moving forward and had indeed dropped the rope. Everything would run off your back and you would have been on your way. She would not be able to do any pulling b/c that rope had been laid down. That is what makes the LBS more attractive-- b/c he is unavailable to the WAS. She wants what she finds very difficult to get.

I'm not saying you haven't made progress, but I'm trying to clarify these two techniques. It's easy for me to say, but much harder for you to instill.

It's difficult to explain how a woman'[s mind works, but if she's finding excuses to contact you (and it's nothing negative) then it can be seen as her being interested. To what degree....we don't know. She could be curious, but any interest is better than none at all.

So, I hope you don't misinterpret what I've tried to explain. Are you wanting to actually drop the rope...or do you just want to pull back and detach and be unavailable, etc., etc.? If you can sort that out in your mind, then the goal might be more focused.

BTW, I sure hope that 2011 will be a wonderful year for you and your family.

I meant to add that that doesn't mean you aren't trying.

Jack3Beans, I really appreciate your posts, and your C.S. Lewis quote.

Zengypsy, how do you handle the lack of contact? It seems to me there is no way to build/ rebuild a relationship without seeing each other/ talking to each other at least SOME, and that's what scares me most about my husband's detachment, which I'd call "relieved" more than "loving" (although I could never accuse him of treating me with anything but kindness).

I'm curious if people really believe the claims about affairs always ending. I did Mort Fertel's program before this and he asked "if the OM/OW really is the love of your spouse's life, why don't we all know stories of people who are happily married that started with an affair?" and I started thinking about it, and first came up with my cousin Lori, who started seeing her husband when he was separated from his wife, and they have been happily married for some 20 years. Brangelina? I have no idea how happy their relationship is - what can you know really from the tabloids - but Brad has stayed with Angelina longer than he was with Jennifer. And I just read Mighty Queens of Freeville (best divorce survival story I've ever read) and the author's husband had an affair that turned into his second marriage and lasted at least until their child together started college 17 years later. I'm not only not reassured by the idea that my husband's new relationships can't work out "because they're founded on dishonesty," I'm not even sure I WANT it to be true! I want him back, to be sure, but if I can't have him, it's not like I don't want him to ever be happy again. What gives?

I hope that 2011 is wonderful for you and your's as well Sandi. Thanks for your thoughts, and I think that you are absolutely correct. And got me to thinking about what my strategy actually is.

I had been thinking of detaching and dropping the rope as one and the same. Maybe they are not?

I have had one session with a DB coach and the goal that we came up for me over the next few weeks (my session was about 10 days ago) was to begin having more contact with W and getting the contact to be more friendly (as opposed to stuff that needs to be addressed). She did advise me not to initiate contact with W in anyway, but to keep in contact with step son. Coach and I did not discuss detaching or dropping the rope. Those things are strategies that I have learned from this board and have been trying to accomplish for my own sanity... so I don't hurt so much over situation.

I guess that I'm unsure of how to simultaneously pursue these two things. As you said Sandi, I can't detach and/or drop the rope if I'm trying to have friendly/warm conversations with W. And I don't see a way to meet the goal of working towards friendly and warmer conversations with W if I am dropping the rope and detaching. I'm a bit at a loss as to how to proceed. What do you think Sandi? I'd appreciate feedback from others as well.

Thanks,
Denver

I hope that 2011 is wonderful for you and your's as well Sandi. Thanks for your thoughts, and I think that you are absolutely correct. And got me to thinking about what my strategy actually is.

I had been thinking of detaching and dropping the rope as one and the same. Maybe they are not?

I have had one session with a DB coach and the goal that we came up for me over the next few weeks (my session was about 10 days ago) was to begin having more contact with W and getting the contact to be more friendly (as opposed to stuff that needs to be addressed). She did advise me not to initiate contact with W in anyway, but to keep in contact with step son. Coach and I did not discuss detaching or dropping the rope. Those things are strategies that I have learned from this board and have been trying to accomplish for my own sanity... so I don't hurt so much over situation.

I guess that I'm unsure of how to simultaneously pursue these two things. As you said Sandi, I can't detach and/or drop the rope if I'm trying to have friendly/warm conversations with W. And I don't see a way to meet the goal of working towards friendly and warmer conversations with W if I am dropping the rope and detaching. I'm a bit at a loss as to how to proceed. What do you think Sandi? I'd appreciate feedback from others as well.

Thanks,
Denver

Okay... I want to try and be proactive about some things that I feel may happen over the next several weeks. So I need some guidance.

The last time W and I had R talk, she insisted that she was sure about wanting D. We left that talk with 'well nothing needs to be decided now'. That was a little over a month ago. As far as I know, W has not changed her position on this. I do not know if her stance has hardened or softened. Obviously, I hope that it has softened and that she is questioning her position on D, but I have nothing that would lead me to be optimistic that this is the case. In fact, her words lead me to believe that she probably has not softened, but I'm trying not to believe anything that she says.

Anyway, I want to be prepared if/when she contacts me to talk about filing for D. In past conversations, she has wanted me to go to court and file with her. She will probably also ask me to pay the filing fee bc she is broke. I do not want divorce. I have been working with DB Coach who told me to NOT help her at all with filing for divorce, to let her do all of the work, and to let any bad news about a D, if filed, come from an attorney or someone else. Basically to remove myself as much as possible from that process. This is how I intend to proceed.

In a conversation with W 10 days ago, she brought up D when she got mad that I was texting a woman friend of mine, I reiterated to W that I did not want D and that I would not help her leave our M and our family.

I am fearful that she has been waiting on bringing up more D talk until after the holidays. Well, it's after the holidays, so my fear that she will bring it up again is increasing.

I think that if she does make contact to address status of R/M and D, that she will say that she is ready to proceed and that she doesn't see any hope for M. She will, most likely, ask me to go to court and file with her and to pay cost of filing. My response will again be that I do not want D and that I do not plan on assisting her in leaving M.

Where I get stuck in this now hypothetical conversation is where she responds to that by asking me why I won't help move the process forward when she is telling me that there is no hope. She will most likely ask me if I just plan on waiting forever for something that isn't going to happen, i.e., reconciliation. I don't really know how to respond to that and I'd like to be prepared.

Do I simply respond that I disagree with her position that there is no hope? It seems that if I do that, I am not validating her feelings. It also seems to me that that is putting myself out as being unrealistic, almost disrespecting myself... like I'm so desperate to have her back that I will hang on the last remaining thread of M, that being the legal contract. That is not how I feel about what I am doing, but how I think she may perceive it. My feeling is that the more time I buy, the more likely it is that EA will burn out and she will come to her senses about everything that she is giving up in M.

Her response could even be worse if she were to tell me that her R with OM has progressed and that she wants to move forward with that. As it stands right now, I do not know what the status of that R is. I have stayed away from that conversation. I really do not want to know and have to admit that I am really fearful of hearing these words from W. I also need to be prepared for a response to this so that I am not defensive or angry if she says it.

I know that I am jumping ahead here, but I could really use some help fashioning a reply to this conversation so that I am prepared.

thanks
Denver

Denver,

The right "AS IF" attitude comes from imagining that she would think their is hope. When you assume the worst, you behave accordingly and create the worst.

I realize you can read lots of things on the board, but one man's good advice is another man's disaster. Detaching and dropping the rope, while common advice are not DB techniques. The LRT is. And that means pull back, as Sandi2 has described, and not initiating as your coach as described.

It doesn't mean detaching and dropping the rope aren't ever good ideas and can't be part of the LRT, but they are not good onesizefitsall advice.

Detach: can mean completely separate and go another direction, and it can just mean stop being so attached. It means various things to various people. The problem with this advice is if being detached was the problem to begin with, this can be disastrous advice. Pulling back is good advice for you, completely detaching is not good advice for you.

Drop the rope: It means: stop doing the work in the relationship. It has been interpreted as move on. Either way, this is not good advice for you. You need to be ready to do work as your coach has described.

Validating: When you are validating, you are not actually validating feelings. You are validating that she is important, and therefore you care what her feelings are. Agreeing or disagreeing isn't the issue, her feelings are what they are. Just listen to her experience and work to understand it. Don't worry about voicing your disagreement. That comes IF SHE ASKS. And IF SHE ASKS, you simply say no. And drop it. That was another piece of advice I received from Michele back in the day. It served me very well.


As you described, you have a lot of fear. Don't. Trust in the love that you have. Trust in what you have shared. Trust in the skills you are building.


What do you use in your job or hobby to center yourself when you are afraid?

Thanks SG. I do use the "As If" technique when I do have contact with W, for the most part I think. I wish that I could truly believe that there is hope, but I haven't seen many signs that give me real hope. I think that i am still early in the process though (W dropped bomb 2 months ago and left 1 month ago). I am practicing patience while trying to buy as much time as possible. Things may yet turn around. All of this is truly hard stuff! One of my biggest issues is not giving up altogether. I guess my love for my W and step son and trying to live up to my own principles by staying true to my M vows is what keeps me going. But man, there are times, each and every day, where I am just not a big fan of my W and the choices that she is making.



I think that you are correct. Being detached from my W and family during M is the reason that I find myself here. These are the very things that I beat myself up for on a daily basis. So maybe I need to stop using that word when describing what I am trying to do. At the same time, trying to be somewhat detached from W and her choices is the only thing keeping me from worrying about what she is doing with OM and what she is thinking about M. It is the only thing keeping me from being completely depressed and despondent over sitch. Maybe what I am doing should fall in line with your second definition of detached, i.e., not being so attached? Can I accomplish not being so attached while also not being so detached that I validate the very reason my W left our M?? Again, tough stuff.

I have pulled back a lot from W. Letting her have the space and time that she wants. Letting her do what it is she thinks that she needs to right now. Not bringing up OM and the pain that her betrayal brings me each and every day. I don't initiate contact at all. W initiated contact 6 out of 8 days before and after xmas, but now haven't heard from her in 4 days. This is very discouraging and makes me wonder WTF is going on in her head! But I am following the no initiating contact idea bc it is what my DB Coach advised. Again, can I pull back this much and not make my W feel that I am doing the exact thing that caused her to be unhappy in M? At the same time, she is the one that left and asked for space from M. Is this space going to cause whatever feeling for me that are left over to diminish and ultimately disappear completely? AHHHHHH!!! Frustrating.



So if she contacts me and tells me that she wants to proceed with D and she would like me to file with her and pay for filing fee bc she is broke, I should simply say 'no' and move on from conversation about D or end conversation altogether? I don't think that she will drop it so easily.

Validating her wish to proceed with D (IF that is what she communicates)"

"W I understand that you feel this way and respect those feelings. I understand that our M was not good the last 10 months, but still believe that it can be fixed and that we can have a great M. I do not want D and am not going to file or pay for it to be filed."

How's that?

How does everyone feel about me providing W with my divorce attorneys name and address to accept service for me IF W elects to file?? This will scare W, even though she knows taht I have contact an attorney, but I feel that I want to remove myself as much as possible from D process if things move in that direction.



Yes. Lots of fear. I simply don't want to lose W and SS. Over the past several weeks of I have done a lot of reflecting on M, my W, and myself with IC and just on my own time. I no longer place 100% of blame for M failure on myself. My W had a lot to do with it. At some point bw us meeting 8 years ago and now, she changed from sweet, appreciative woman, into bitter, harsh and unappreciative woman. I don't want W back like this. We both need to forgive one another, put the past behind us, and change what we bring to M on a daily basis. And I BELIEVE that this can happen!! Therein lies the problem... I believe it. She doesn't even get it, let alone believe that things can be fixed. I don't know if she ever will.

SG - I don't have many hobbies per se. I have been trying to learn how to have fun in life again. I think that I got so far caught up in our financial security and worries that I got depressed and forgot how to enjoy life. I am trying to relearn. I have been spending a lot of time with friends and family. Going out again. going back to gym as of tomorrow. trying to learn not to take work stress home with me. Letting go of life's worries a little more. I come here when I get sad or afraid, and/or I focus on being in the present moment, i.e. think to myself that there is nothing in the present moment causing me pain or making life unpleasant. I try to remember that I am in control of my own actions, my W's choices are not mine and I do not own them. That I will be happy again regardless of how this turns out. But that I need to go through this process and not run from the vows that I made to my W and the love that I still feel for her. This is a choice that I am making for me... for the integrity that I feel that I have as a person... so that I never have to look back and say that I didn't fight for my M.

I meant to say that I am VERY interested in what some of the vets of the board think of the attorney question that I posed above... Sandi, J3BS, True Gritter?

Of course I'm interested in everyone's thoughts though!

Denver--

I think you're navigating through this well. You're realizing what you did contribute to things going awry and realizing that it's not all you. You aren't the whole cause of things going bad, but you're not powerless to change them either.

I like your statement, and maybe we could modify it to trigger some of the sweet side of your wife:

"W I understand that you feel this way and that our M was not good the last 10 months, but still believe that we can change the things that went wrong and that we can have a great M. While I won't stop you, I do not want D and am not going to file or pay for it to be filed."

What triggered me to try to soften it was the word 'respect'. And there's nothing wrong with it, it's a good word. I have just read other books that encourage women to respect men and men to cherish women's feelings. If she was this kind of woman--really soft and feminine, you might touch her heart softening it. So I gave it a try, you might want to revise it yourself. Again, there is nothing wrong with your original words. My partner likes me more when I'm soft and sweet too, so I was just thinking of some of our interactions.


Making the changes in the middle of the heartbreak you're had is so commendable. Working to forgive her and work on your marriage is about as beautiful an act of love as it gets. I'm so glad you took the step to talk to a DB Coach, because you are getting expert direction. I know enough about the coaches to know that it's very difficult to be chosen as a coach. But you're a professional, and I imagine you checked that out.


Getting back to the gym, investing in yourself, focusing on the present--all of this is so important. You deserve to enjoy your life, and I pray your wife wakes up and works with you on this. I hope you get the wonderful marriage back that fills your life with joy. I believe you will.