The starting point was setting a boundary when someone (presumably one’s spouse) calls a person an “idiot.” An alternative to the orthodox approach was suggested: first listen and validate, and then set the limit. The reactions ranged from whether the same approach would work for a spouse having an affair to being abused by one’s spouse. While a one-size-fits-all approach may work for some, it doesn’t for me. I do believe there is a considerable difference between being called a name and being mugged.
I am surprised that hasn’t been any openness to even the thought that there might be something different than the consequence approach.
That's just it we are talking about being mugged by your spouse- abuse, affairs, squandering family assets, hurting the kids. I don't believe you are reading along here.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
There seems to be a lot of reactivity to suggest that there is only one way to approach boundaries. Part of the problem is the language itself. Another part is what you allude to, confusion about internal boundaries and the fact that there are two people involved of equal status - after all this site is about marriage, not children, employees, gypsies, or the like.
Actually this site is called DivorceBusting. What you advocate is for better communication and conflict resolution. Once again the "consequences" are for behavior that cannot be tolerated in a marriage under any circumstances. If you can tell us how to deal with affairs and real abuse without consequences then school us. Offer up a solution. I advocate what I have seen work here and in real life.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Actually this site is called DivorceBusting. What you advocate is for better communication and conflict resolution. Once again the "consequences" are for behavior that cannot be tolerated in a marriage under any circumstances. If you can tell us how to deal with affairs and real abuse without consequences then school us. Offer up a solution. I advocate what I have seen work here and in real life.
Thanks coach... You have a remarkable talent for conciseness.
I never joined the debating league, so I don't think I can present my POV without it being picked apart here. I understand ABG's POV though. I really see two things being talked about here:
1. protecting oneself through having healthy boundaries and enforcing them
2. communication, including listening and trying to understand the need underlying the behaviour even if the behaviour transgresses the boundary
Even unacceptable behaviours like having an affair are expressions of unmet needs. If your only goal is to protect yourself, boundary-setting alone is adequate. If your goal is to heal the marriage, it seems to me that looking at and validating the unmet needs can also be an effective approach in addition to setting boundaries. People have affairs because they are feeling unloved, ignored, misunderstood, etc. When a formerly "good" and loving spouse becomes a WAS, it's entirely appropriate to look at the causes of infidelity and other behaviours. If their behaviour is unforgiveable, then there is no point in DBing. If their behaviour is forgiveable, then treat your spouse like a human. Don't condone the behaviour, but recognize that the behaviours are (unhealthy) attempts to meet unmet needs. In a troubled marriage, most people feel like their spouse is a million miles away and could never understand their POV.
If you think your WAS feels misunderstood by you, you can practice some communication skills and try to understand ABG's POV. Listening/understanding is an active process and people really notice when you are making an effort to do it. Good practice
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
Wife dropped the bomb on me one year ago. Found this website within a few days and read Michele's Books. Have been DBing for a year, going to counselling and becoming a better person, husband and father.
Wife and I always had a different approach to money, I saved, she spent. I became an angry person because of it. Over the past year I have changed my value system and have become more understanding, caring and considerate on all matters including finances.
Had a brief discussion with my wife about our relationship this week. She told that all of the nice things that I am doing and the improvements that I am making, only make her feel guilty. She says that she can't ever go back to loving me again and wants to live as roommates. I have recently moved to the basement and she seems fine with this.
The question I have that I guess everyone asks at some point is how long do you keep going with this? My wife is all laughs and giggles with people from work, visitors to the door or people on the phone. With me, there is this emotional wall up that she won't let any emotions through. Its like living with a complete stranger. I think others have referred to the WAW being like having an Alien in your house. She is not the person I met, fell in love with and married.
She has also connected with a male employee from work who she says is just a fried, but admited that he was interested in her sexually. Although she told him she just wants to be friends, she is always texting him and very secretive of her cell phone.
I guess my other question is whether making her feel guilty a good or bad thing? I have been thinking about going dark and or letting her know that I am considering divorce. Every day that goes by, I feel as if I love her less and less. Its almost like I am now going through what she has gone through and at some point I will be as emotionally detached as she is.
My Situation
H: 51 W: 47
S: 14 S: 12 D: 08
Together: 22 Years Married: 18 Years
Status - Living like roommates
Seems like Punchy is "conscious" of his wifes feelings and validated the issues she has with him. He is doing the work yet something is missing because one year later it's not working. I agree you need to know how to address your WAS issues and the role you have in the M. One is not mutually exclusive of the other you can have healthy boundaries and practice true giving to your WAS. One needs to be wise and strong to pull it off. Most importantly you need to love yourself .
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Somehow, DivoreBusting then is not about trying to save marriages?
Originally Posted By: Coach
What you advocate is for better communication and conflict resolution.
Yes, I believe that is the single most important element - and it is the lack of which that causes couples to be in situations requiring DB.
However, just because it is the most important thing does not mean it is the only thing.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Once again the "consequences" are for behavior that cannot be tolerated in a marriage under any circumstances. If you can tell us how to deal with affairs and real abuse without consequences then school us. Offer up a solution. I advocate what I have seen work here and in real life.
The sample I have is a biased one, since it consists of couples that have recognized their desire to somehow make their marriage work, even in the face of affairs. (Abuse is another matter) What I have seen work is both spouses coming to understand their respective responsibilities in the affair(s) and to understand their spouse’s feelings more deeply. A key element is the unfaithful one not only accepting responsibility and expressing remorse, but also understanding at a deep level the impact her/his affair had on their spouse. An even more important element is whether the one who was betrayed can accept responsibility for their contributions to the breakdown in the relationship, and in a similar way understand their spouse’s feelings. The attitude that engenders this is being open to feelings, both in expressing them and more importantly in hearing and validating them in the other.
This is the only approach I have seen that has led to healing a marriage in such circumstances. And, I say my sample is biased because I haven’t seen what happened beforehand, nor have I seen what happens in couples that don’t make it to that point.
You are right in that approach to boundaries I suggest may not get someone’s spouse to end an affair or committing abuse. I don’t think there is any magic bullet that can get another person to change or make the choices we want them to.
Boundaries are a complex area since they deal with what is going on with both people. Likewise, couples in which there is infidelity are rarely a simple matter of one “bad” spouse and one “good” spouse.
I never joined the debating league, so I don't think I can present my POV without it being picked apart here. I understand ABG's POV though. I really see two things being talked about here:
1. protecting oneself through having healthy boundaries and enforcing them
2. communication, including listening and trying to understand the need underlying the behaviour even if the behaviour transgresses the boundary
Even unacceptable behaviours like having an affair are often expressions of unmet needs. If your only goal is to protect yourself, boundary-setting alone is adequate. If your goal is to heal the marriage, it seems to me that looking at and validating the unmet needs can also be an effective approach in addition to setting boundaries. People oftenhave affairs because they are feeling unloved, ignored, misunderstood, etc. When a formerly "good" and loving spouse becomes a WAS, it's entirely appropriate to look at the causes of infidelity and other behaviours. If their behaviour is unforgiveable, then there is no point in DBing. If their behaviour is forgiveable, then treat your spouse like a human. Don't condone the behaviour, but recognize that the behaviours are often(unhealthy) attempts to meet unmet needs. In a troubled marriage, most people feel like their spouse is a million miles away and could never understand their POV.
If you think your WAS feels misunderstood by you, you can practice some communication skills and try to understand ABG's POV. Listening/understanding is an active process and people really notice when you are making an effort to do it. Good practice
This is the only approach I have seen that has led to healing a marriage in such circumstances
Odd, there are plenty of other examples right here in this forum where the turning point was when the betrayed spouse set and eforced boundaries by letting the wayward spouse go.
They stopped making excuses, stopped walking on eggshells in their own life, and were prepared to move on without the wayward before things turned around.
In fact, that makes up the majority of cases that have turned around here.
How do you reconcile that with your assertion?
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
flowmom, thank you for the comments! It’s nice to know that someone does understand. You have expressed it far more eloquently than I have been able to. Infidelity is a complex dynamic, and as harmful as an affair can be, it is crucial for a couple who wishes to heal to come to understand what has been going on in both spouses. This requires effective communication, which include both listening and expressing needs as well as establishing boundaries.
I agree that if one’s spouse is cheating and refuses to end the affair and work on the relationship, then there is no point in continuing. As you point out, that is not what DBing is about, at least as I understand it.
