Opt, I love what you posted to BillM about his wife being scared and trying to be in control of her situation. I wonder if my H is feeling the same way.
It is hard to start another week feeling like things are the same. Somedays my PATIENCE seems to be wearing thin.
I hope you feel better!
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: George Strait The Road Less Traveled lyrics [snip] Goin's rough unlike the straight and narrow
Re-read that line of the song several times!
Quote: I am supposed to be at work but I took a brief break. Both H and I seem to have caught whatever our D has (despite all that frequent handwashing, Totite ).
Try to remember that with both of you feeling bad, it's going to be easy to be cranky, short-tempered, easily frustrated, etc. Hope everyone starts feeling better soon.
Quote: Beware, guys and girls, major vent follows:
Better to do that here than with H.
Quote: So it may be why I am a bit down. Or it could be that Nov 19 gets closer... the day I got the letter from OW saying my H and her were in love and my opposing a divorce was making their life impossible...
I know guys are a little different when it comes to anniversaries... To him, it's probably "just another day". What are the things you can do to view it the same way? If you can kick this ghost now, it will help keep it from haunting you every year. If you can't cause the date to fade from your mind (the solution I prefer), can you change your view of the day into something like: "Opposing the divorce is making OW's life with H impossible? - I'll show OW impossible... I'll make the 19th a day for me to remind myself that he hasn't left me. I'll DB my heart out and make it an 'epiphany' anniversary. I'm winning."
Quote: In August we went on vacation together and he moved back home. He has been attentive, sweet, tender and understanding... but she still works for him... He wears his wedding ring and spends a lot of time with us and with me... but she still works for him... He is more open and learns from his mistakes... but she still works for him... He had acnowledged his mistake and begged for my forgiveness... but she still works for him... He listens to my body language and reads me as a book... but she still works for him...
I don't know why she still works for him. Is he afraid of a sexual harassment charge? Is she still there as a security blanket?
My suggestion is to see if you can focus on the positive steps he's making. As long as you're still focused on "but she still works for him", it's going to be difficult to focus on "He has been attentive, sweet, tender and understanding", "He wears his wedding ring ans spends a lot of time with us and with me", "He is more open and learns from his mistakes", "He has acknowledged his mistakes", "He had acknowledged his mistake and begged for my forgiveness", "He listens to my body language and reads me as a book".
I think as long as you're focused on "but she still works for him", it's going to be difficult to put that behind you so you can help him put it behind him.
I think he's still very afraid you'll kick him out. I think he's still keeping some walls up, and that's why he's still testing you. He's had quite a bit of time to think of you in negative ways. When you started DB'ing, he was still thinking of you in those ways. There's a lag there. It's going to take time for him to figure things out.
Quote: Even now that my bro is here and H has relaxed a tiny bit and started to come home earlier and spend lots of time with me/us... I found me torturing myself on the way home with XOW's problem.
Wasn't it just last week that he was avoiding you and your family? (I looked - it was 7 days ago.) This is a big improvement. I think this is a sign that what you're doing is helping the situation.
Quote: He tries, I cannot say he is not trying. But he cannot win, because regardless of what he does, I suspect. I cannot rest, I cannot think, I cannot feel sure... I wish I could... I want not to care... I want to stop my mind... and I do for a little, just to have it start again.
OK.... You need to make some choices: Forgive or not? Trust or not? You'll never be 100% sure of anything. It's going to take time, but I think you'll gradually become more comfortable with the R. I suspect what you're feeling is the insecurity of your wall being down. It's scary and uncomfortable to have that vulnerability.
From Kenny Chesney's song "You Had Me From Hello":
Inside I built a wall So high around my heart, I thought I'd never fall One touch, you brought it down The bricks of my defenses scattered on the ground And I swore to me I wasn't going to love again The last time was the last time I'd let someone in
Quote: Maybe if I were able to understand why he still keeps her there, I'd be able to stop. But I do not and cannot. He has tried to explain several times but I cannot fathom his explanation.
It is partly the way I am wired. I can accept what I understand even if I do not like it or want it. I accepted his feeling of relief when I found out about the A, only when I came to understand what he meant (but it took three months).
Is it really important to understand? Is it something you can just accept?
Quote: He said in frustration that it was my problem, and it IS my problem, but it is ours because it is making it impossible for me to believe. I focus on the positives, I act 'as if', AND I CANNOT STOP MY DARNED MIND. No stop signs, no meditations, not even sleep, nothing seems to work for any long.
There are others on the BB who can help you with this more than I. There are going to be times when he's frustrated trying to figure all of this out.
Quote: And the worst part is that I do not feel I have a right to complain: I have a lot of blessings. He is here and for whatever motive obviously interested in working through things. That is more than lots of people have.
Hey, they're your feelings at times. They may not always be logical. Hopefully, you'll feel better about the R when you're feeling better physically. Try to focus on the fact that he is there, and is working through things.
Quote: OK, let's be methodic: have a look at my goals (reviewed from 9/03): My goals so far are simple. Whether they are realistic is another question: 1. OW will no longer work for him by Xmas (major must: a sine qua non) I do not see this any closer
Does he understand you feel this is a sine qua non? What happens if she still works for him then? Is what happens what you really want?
Quote: 2. He will keep me involved in his office (I have no intention of letting this happen again). He has said he will but keeps postponing any attempt at it
Is this too large or vague of a goal at this point? Can you break this down? I think it would make you feel better to see babysteps.
Quote: 3. We will talk about each other feelings and plans Much, much better. We are having long, albeit infrequent, conversations about how we see things. He never initiates one, but is quite receptive to have them when I do
Very good. Don't worry that he's not initiating at this point. He's making steps toward being more comfortable. He may not know quite how to deal with everything right now.
Quote: 4. We will spend 15 hours a week together (no work, no kid, only fun) We've been doing pretty well: would have gotten that one done if it were not for sickness and family visitors...
I'd count that as an accomplishment. Compared to where you were not very long ago, that's a major improvement.
Quote: 5. He will be able to tell me things he think I will not like without feeling he is letting me down. Much better also. I am much better at validating and listening too
That will come with time as he becomes more comfortable. I think you're already seeing the olive branches, and steps in that direction.
Quote: Sorry for the long epistle... I needed to get it out of my system before it poisoned me
Better to get it out here than with him.
I think feeling bad physically is going to make it more difficult to see the positives. Not seeing the positives makes it difficult to kick the ghosts of OW.
Hope this last part of the visit with your brother goes well. Must be rather strange for him with all of you sick! Just hope he doesn't get it too - he may not want to visit again for a while - LOL!
Take Care.
totite
"Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative..."
Well, Totite, I doubt that my bro is going to come back in a really long time... and this was his first visit ever...
Anyway, I saw yesterday what my H meant about being ignored. My H fixed dinner for us last night and sat at the TV to eat with my bro and me. My bro wolfed it down without a word and left for the study to get on the computer in about 10 minutes. I need to talk to him: even if he cannot see my H, he could be polite...
I intended to talk to my H about it, but I've been too sick to do anything. Had 103F fever this am... feel lousy...
Positives for 11/16/03: 1. H fixed dinner and sat to eat and watch TV with bro and me 2. We snuggled all night 3. He fixed me breakfast this morning (with 2 Tylenols) and got in the protective mood 4. Said ILY before going to work
"You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause it's banged up a little"
Tom Smith in "Seabiscuit"
Quote: Anyway, I saw yesterday what my H meant about being ignored. My H fixed dinner for us last night and sat at the TV to eat with my bro and me. My bro wolfed it down without a word and left for the study to get on the computer in about 10 minutes. I need to talk to him: even if he cannot see my H, he could be polite...
Awesome!!! First, you're able to see what he's talking about. That has to make him feel better that you see it's not all just his viewpoint on the situation.
Your brother may not have been trying to ignore your H, but the end result is that he did. If he's in your house, he can be polite!
Quote: I intended to talk to my H about it, but I've been too sick to do anything. Had 103F fever this am... feel lousy...
Even if it's not a big conversation, just mention that you saw an example of what he's talking about, and that you saw it the same way. That will help take away some of his feelings that you're taking sides with your brother.
Quote: Positives for 11/16/03: 1. H fixed dinner and sat to eat and watch TV with bro and me 2. We snuggled all night 3. He fixed me breakfast this morning (with 2 Tylenols) and got in the protective mood 4. Said ILY before going to work
Babysteps! More olive branches! More signs that he's working on things also! WooooHooooo!!!!
OK, CHL here is the answer I will try to be thoughtful and specific but it is not going to be short Get the 2 x 4's ready.
Quote: I know guys are a little different when it comes to anniversaries... To him, it's probably "just another day". What are the things you can do to view it the same way? If you can kick this ghost now, it will help keep it from haunting you every year. If you can't cause the date to fade from your mind (the solution I prefer), can you change your view of the day into something like: "Opposing the divorce is making OW's life with H impossible? - I'll show OW impossible... I'll make the 19th a day for me to remind myself that he hasn't left me. I'll DB my heart out and make it an 'epiphany' anniversary. I'm winning."
I agree with you in the 'guys see it different' thing but I think I accidentally misled you in the significance of that anniversary for me. What I meant is that H has been promising me for a year that he will get rid of her and we are not any closer to that particular goal in my opinion. That is a point of major frustration for me. And he knows it well.
There is also some conclusion as to the D: my H never asked me for one, even though I had offered him one multiple times in the last 5 years, while things have been rough. He always said there was no one else and he did not want to lose me. He denied a R with OW in front of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, even when we were S and in counselling. It was not until I confronted her and got her end of the story (and filed for D) that he admitted to an A, but 'it was over'...
Quote: I don't know why she still works for him. Is he afraid of a sexual harassment charge? Is she still there as a security blanket?
I fear so. I think he has her there to have someone hanging in case things do not work out between us. OW tells me that even when he was supposedly trying to fix things with me he was lying to her and acting 'as if' nothing had happened and we were not back together. She even started snooping on him! And he calls her from his cell phone in the weekends...
He has given me two different and probably complementary explanations: 1. She is still there because he does not want to 'lose everything', and specified me and his bussiness. 2. He wants to make sure that it does not happen again and needs to get rid of her in his terms and for himself, not because of me.
I do not know whether he realizes that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy: having her there prevents me from trusting him enough to try harder to fix our M... How can I trust him when he is still flaunting her there...
Quote: My suggestion is to see if you can focus on the positive steps he's making. As long as you're still focused on "but she still works for him", it's going to be difficult to focus on "He has been attentive, sweet, tender and understanding", "He wears his wedding ring ans spends a lot of time with us and with me", "He is more open and learns from his mistakes", "He has acknowledged his mistakes", "He had acknowledged his mistake and begged for my forgiveness", "He listens to my body language and reads me as a book".
I think as long as you're focused on "but she still works for him", it's going to be difficult to put that behind you so you can help him put it behind him.
I know and I am trying. But it is very difficult.
I feel a lot of anger and resentment still which is not helped by his keeping her there. Also I fear I am being stupid: the fact of the matter is that my H does not contribute financially to our home. Whatever money he earns, which is billed for and controlled by OW, goes to pay her salary, her car and God knows what. Neither my D nor I have seen a cent. It is my salary that pays the bills... He has a great financial interest in being with me, and though I never thought he was particularly mercenary, I never thought so many things about him that I cannot trust my judgement much, can I?
I have told him that he could have her there, but have him and me control the billing and the bank account, and he refused. Well, he did not refuse: he put it off and never did it. So typical of him...
Quote: I think he's still very afraid you'll kick him out. I think he's still keeping some walls up, and that's why he's still testing you. He's had quite a bit of time to think of you in negative ways. When you started DB'ing, he was still thinking of you in those ways. There's a lag there. It's going to take time for him to figure things out.
Well, you are right again. You should hear the stories he told OW about me, all to justify his A. But his behavior is making it very difficult for me to keep him... With his horror of confrontation I wonder whether he is doing all that to ensure that I continue with the D, because he does not want to confront me. Because the more time passes the more I wonder whether I am doing the right thing...
Quote: Wasn't it just last week that he was avoiding you and your family? (I looked - it was 7 days ago.) This is a big improvement. I think this is a sign that what you're doing is helping the situation.
You are right. I've made a mental note to show appreciation for that when I get home...
Quote: OK.... You need to make some choices: Forgive or not? Trust or not? You'll never be 100% sure of anything. It's going to take time, but I think you'll gradually become more comfortable with the R. I suspect what you're feeling is the insecurity of your wall being down. It's scary and uncomfortable to have that vulnerability.
Right again. I am very insecure and fearful because I see it could be fixed and do not want to go through this again... In a way it was easier when we were apart because I had rebuilt my life without him and knew I could do it. I even felt vaguely amused about OW waiting for him at her place when he spent every waking moment with us (and he could well have come to see our D when I was at work, thus avoiding me). Now I am vulnerable again. And I do not like the sensation...
Quote: Is it really important to understand? Is it something you can just accept?
In a weird way, I can accept anything that I understand. I can accept the A happened because I understand how it came to being... I do not condone it, but I understand why it happened.
Quote: Does he understand you feel this is a sine qua non? What happens if she still works for him then? Is what happens what you really want?
I have told him several times. If he is not deaf he has heard me.
I have not given him any specific dates because that would be controlling and threatening, but I promised myself that if she is still there in 2004, I am going to have to go through with the D (as you probably suspected, given your other questions). It is not what I want but I do not see any other way. I cannot live my life with her in the picture and I have been waiting for well over a year. As LL put it in an answer to my first thread ever
As to the other question: no. I will not live or submit my dtr to living with a three way R. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then you have to decide how long you will wait for her to be gone...
LL
Quote: Is this too large or vague of a goal at this point? Can you break this down? I think it would make you feel better to see babysteps.
Good point. How about: 1. He will take me to talk to his CPA and have him teach me the financial workings of his office 2. He will take OW off all the bank accounts and put me instead
Quote: I think feeling bad physically is going to make it more difficult to see the positives. Not seeing the positives makes it difficult to kick the ghosts of OW.
Maybe, but this is something that has been going on for a long time. And it is not getting easier despite all the very hopeful steps we have had in the last three months. I am sure I am not going about it in the right way, but I do not know how to do it in a different one: I've tried no pressure and nothing happens, and I tried asking for what I want and same here.
The curious thing is that I do not think they are having a PA now (and even when they did the was very infrequent and he had 'problems' with it), but I fear he is so controlled by her that it is only a question of time until they go back. He told me he had tried to break up with her in multiple occasions and did, but they always came back. It is an addiction, I fear.
"You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause it's banged up a little"
Tom Smith in "Seabiscuit"
I will try to be thoughtful and specific but it is not going to be short 
was very infrequent and he had 'problems' with it), but I fear he is so controlled by her that it is only a question of time until they go back. He told me he had tried to break up with her in multiple occasions and did, but they always came back. It is an addiction, I fear.