Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers My sitch continued, not sure why original thread

Answered in follow up posts Bond. As to my FEAR about what she may have been planning ? If you look at the dates, and I could be mistaken, that was still in the initial stages of shock and muddy thinking and my mind running wild with the most horrible of possible outcomes. It was ONE possible scenario, that made sense at the time, with emotions all over the place. What can I say ??????? Could that STILL be the eventual end result ? Anything is possible.

Lets keep in mind also that she slipped last week during one of our first sessions and blurted out " I don't have YOU !" When I mentioned the fact that her current arrangement gave her everything she wanted that I wasn't giving her. Emotional Support, housing that was paid for, attentiveness , etc. Even the counselor told me in private that was REAL. She didn't intend for me to hear it, at least not then, but it was genuine in the counselors assessment of her body language, facial expression after she realized what she had said, tone of voice , etc.

BAD MORNING today !!!

Got the DD off to school and the DS over to the neighbors. Todays the hearing and I have to sign the custody agreement me and the WAW hammered out together. I was walking around the house getting my suit ready and everything and I got hit with a WAVE of grief and crying. I KNOW I have to do this if there will EVER be a hope of us reconciling, and I was able to get every other week at my house for the summer, shared holidays , etc. But during the school year it will only be open visitation as much as I want and every other weekend. It just feels so damn FINAL, like signing the custody agreement is somehow a symbol of our R being "officially" OVER.

I dont know why it feels that way, when I know this is what I had to do in order to keep the possibility of reconciliation alive, but it still feels that way.

We'll see each other on Saturday for awhile for a neighbor kids birthday , and at least its a start of being able to spend a few hours in each others company without R talk, I guess its a start and we have another session scheduled for next Tuesday with the counselor. I have to keep reminding myself there have been some small hints that this can be fixed, but facing the idea of an EMPTY house AND the amount of time this is likely to take until my family is restored feels insurmountable.

My brain wont turn off thinking that she's having the time of her life now thats she's "escaped". I know everyone has been telling me that after 14 years the feelings dont just get turned off. And she's already admitted that she's afraid to be around me alone right now because she'll start having feelings again.

I just wish there was some way to know or see that she's just as anguished over this as I am. This is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO frustrating!!!

I KNOW the changes I am capable of and have already started, I KNOW they can be permanent. I KNOW I have tools and awareness now to be CERTAIN things can never be like they were ever again. I just wish she would see it, accept it and give us that chance, just the chance, before quitting.

I keep reminding myself of the little clues that there's something still there and hold onto them, feverishly blowing on the sparks, trying to keep the glow alive. But it feels like Im doing that in the middle of a Hurricane.

I know two weeks from now when DD is done school for the Summer and moves out I will get crushed with another wave, its inevitable.

Its almost even worse then I'll miss my sons first steps, the first time he says Da Da , etc. That CRUSHES me.

God this SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wouldnt wish this kind of pain on Bin Laden. It would be far more merciful to be physically tortured.

Im guessing the ever changing emotions of the WAW is normal as part of the "fog" ?

Yesterday morning we had a really pleasant phone conversation for over an hour. She was due to come over to pick up the kids later anyway and some more of her stuff. She even said she was coming early so there would be time if I wanted to talk about anything. She said she also went to visit her grandmothers grave ( the person in her whole family that she was SUPER CLOSE to)Im SURE this was a contributing factor to her mood cycling wildly

So she gets here and everything is going pretty good. I asked her for the number of the MC she claimed she had called for us a couple weeks ago when everything exploded.

(Backstory) WAW tells me that on the day I went to file for custody she was on her way here to tell me we could reconcile this and she had made an appointment to see a MC that evening. That is until she found out I had filed for C)

So as part of my fact checking I wanted the number to call them( didnt tell her that ) So when I asked she seemed a tiny bit surprised, wanted to know why ,they only do MC , etc. I told her I understood that, but I'd still like to call them, find out what they offer , etc. She again said " they only do MC and we're not doing that for AWHILE " Then within a few minutes she said " I have to watch everything I say around you, you take it to literally " ???? As if she regreted having that " AWHILE " remark slip out , since she was now in the space of a few minutes saying it will take " YEARS " to fix this.

I simply stated how I understood where she was coming from but couldnt get my head around how HER desires flipped around so completley in two weeks. She said her feelings change DAILY !

She did acknowledge that she NEVER thought of our R as a 14 year affair. Which I have to take as a good sign. She admitted that it was not a " far leap " for her to intentionally or unintentionally ( my words not hers) rekindle things with her EX.

She wanted to grab some stuff and I know she has back problems and kidney problems so I offered to get it down for her and she got annoyed, saying " I just told him the same thing, I can do things for myself , chivalry died in the 50's " I countered " Im just trying to help ( being a friend ) she came back with ," I know but if I want help I'll ask " But one of her big problems in our R is her feeling like she did EVERYTHING around the house. Now Im trying to show her my 180 about that and she rejects it ?????

I had to run out to get some stuff. On the way back she called to see where I was cause she had to leave shortly. Then she was griping about being hungry and having to eat to take her meds, after about 2 or 3 offers from me to stop and pick her up something and her saying " no its ok " she finally accepted, which is ( from her perception of me always putting her last ) another 180 from me.

We ate with the DD, talked a little more while loading her stuff and then it was time for her to leave. She told me if I hadnt heard from her by 9pm ( so DD could say goodnight) for me to call her to speak to DD. I also had to let her know if I had any luck in getting tix's for me to take DD to a Monster Jam show tonite ( YES) !!

So when I called, spoke to DD for a few minutes and asked her to put mommy on the phone. Let her know I DID get the tickets and what time I wanted to pick her up ( this is the WAW's weekend ).
She was "short" on the phone. I said " you sound annoyed I called or something " she responded " I am " I replied " you told me to call remember ?" She replied " Im trying to get ready to feed the baby , let slip an exasperated sounding sigh and asked if there was anything else ?" Nooo. " Ok bye " click.

She also did tell me yesterday that her counselors have diagnosed her with clinical depression, said they looked at post partum depression and their still evaluating for bi-polarism.

She claims they told her she didnt need meds or mood stabilizers as long as she was being 100% open and honest and willing to talk about her issue's with them , says they gave her personal contact numbers and she calls when ever she needs to and see's one in person at least once, sometimes twice a week.

Can depression REALLY be treated with ONLY counseling ????

Oh yea, she also asked me if I could pull 100 bucks out and exchange it with her for her paycheck ( she was out for the last week or two, working sporadically at best , thats why its so low) Which I did without hesitation. ( trying to be a friend again )

She also told me she didnt want me to " sugarcoat things" and that if I had something to say or tell her how I felt about something to just do so.

She also admitted that SOOOOO many things that were going on in the months leading up to the seperation where a major part of the problem.

Her " home " store closing , not knowing if she would be out of a job. Our financial struggles, my Dumb Guy Disease actions and comments, my telling her we only had about 4 weeks to find another place due to the bankruptcy, etc was all just to much to handle at once and she cracked under the strain. This does actually make sense, knowing her and how she deals with things.

I asked her if she thought that just things being different betweeen us would have made a difference and she admitted it probably would have.

Its just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn confusing. One minute/day we're talking nicely and she's sending tiny signals, the next she's rude, standoffish, short, etc. I cant tell if she's trying to push me away because she doesnt want to feel guilty that Im being so nice or if she's just really confused about whats going on and my changes and starting to second guess herself and doesnt want to let on.

I noted during our phone call how we were " getting along " better and she said it was because she felt she " didnt have to answer to me anymore , she could just hang up ,etc. If thats true, then she shouldnt have any reason to lie to me yes ??????

Because part of me still is convinced Im not getting the truth about her current arrangement and she doesnt want to tell me for fear of my reaction and that she'll lose ME for good.

Like I said before, even our joint counselor ( who really is doing MC for us , even if the WAW doesnt realize it ) has observed more then once that we care very deeply about each other.

When she left yesterday we were talking for another minute or so while she was sitting in the truck and I joked about if someone called her for an emergency concerning me , it would probably be cause I had a heart attack since I was going down to the rink later to start playing hockey again. She sorta smirked about that( it was something I did religiously on Friday nights back in the early part of of our R ) and said something like " Hey, since I've already lost 10 or 15lbs since this started, I might as well keep it up " She immediately looked at my belly ( which I had put on an extra 20 or 30 lbs over the last few years ) so I guess she's at least curious.


I THINK I may have locked in a deal on a new place, something I can afford on my own. Smaller , needs lots of cosmetic work, but the owner is really laid back and doesnt care what changes or improvements I make as long as their by code. Says he's draing up an agreement this weekend , structured as rent for first year, then flip to a lease purchase. I have some friends in construction trades that can help out. And I DO need a "project " to keep my mind off things. But there's also a "fringe benefit ".

I know what pushes her buttons in the attractiveness dept and I know she LOVES houses with deep front proches , porch swings,etc.
I might not be able to develop a set of 6 pack abs in the next two months, but if she comes over to the new place to drop or pick up the kids and see's I've really gotten in shape AND the front porh style she likes is something Im building , thats GOT to have an effect. No doubt about it in my mind. I was working construction in the summer when we met, and a " manly man " in jeans, work boots and no shirt in the summer really gets to her.

So we'll see how it goes.

I REALLY want to point out to her just how much we have in common with whats going on. Her loss of hope, mine, her depression and mine, etc , etc. I dont understand why she cant see that 90% of this stuff is FIXABLE and something we have in common and its worth another shot, our kids deserve that much !!


SIGH.............................

Another question. The counselor observed in our last meeting that I was angry, even though I denied it. Since she is our neighbor and its simple to walk across the street, I told her the next day she was right, I am angry. Im angry about alot of things. Angry about the sitch, angry that my WAW has choosen to leave instead of seeing the damage that is inevitable our children, angry at myself and my part in this, angry that for now she wont say she wants us to be able to resolve this. I KNOW her walls are WAY up and thats a big part of it.

My question is. Since she told me the other day not to " sugarcoat things " if I had something to say, do I tell her during our next meeting on Tues that YES IM ANGRY and why ???

I dont mean a vicious, mean spirited broadside, but just admitting outloud to her that Im angry about the way things have turned out and will be for the foreseeable future. Our dynamic in the past was for me to always be willing to calmly talk about whatever our problem of the moment was, while her preferred method was to "vent " and rant to get things out. She had mentioned before that it infuriated her that I refused to engage in a screaming match with her. Although " infuriated " may be to strong of a word to be honest, maybe frustrated is better ?

Its so hard trying to figure out what move will push her further away and what will help even the smallest in drawing her back. Back in the very beginning of the meltdown, she made a cutting remark about needing a MAN(emphasis hers) !!! Now thats a loaded statement in alot of ways. I know what people here say about being "manly " by being confident, leading the way ,stable , etc. But then she's also turned around and complained about why all the changes Ive been making and " stepping up " are happening NOW , only after getting to this point, like she's pissed that Im making it hard for her or something to justify to herself what she's doing.

What are you doing talking on the phone for over an hour?
Why would you be talking to her if she was coming over later?

Women are attracted to BUSY men. Not men who hang on the phone for an hour. Why did you call her?




PRESSURE. Pressure doesn't work on women who leave you. You are pressuring her about MC. It is going to backfire.



She is feeling pressure. You are taking every letter of every word she says and analyzing it. That isn't going to work.



You really have to stop trying to get her to talk about this type of stuff. You ARE pressuring her. Pursuing her. Chasing her.. That stuff doesn't work. It is making you look weak and needy. That is never attractive to men or women.




You are doing these things when she has lost respect for you. This is one of the biggest mistake men on here make. A woman leaves him and then he starts doing the things she says she wanted him to do a long time ago. It comes across as doing it out of neediness. Not out of love and respect for your wife which you should have been doing BEFORE all this happened. Now it only will make her mad because she feels it as chasing and pursuing and pressue.... Please love me back, please love me back I will do what you want NOW... Don't leave me I will change."



You are wayyyyyy overdoing it. Ask once and leave it at that. You are looking very needy here. Totally unattractive.






She justg left a few hours earlier and now you are asking for her on the phone... PRESSURE and pursuit.. You were just looking for an excuse to talk to her yet again. No wonder she was agitated. You don't get it. She is LEAVING you. That means you had better give her some space or you are digging a deeper hole and this will only take longer.


You also asked her if things were different with you , you brought up how you were getting along better, when she was leaving you hung around still talking to her for just a few more minutes by the truck, you just had to mention you have lost weight, and now you are thinking about moving into a place that you think will turn her on...


I am telling you man.. This type of stuff doesn't work. it is way to much pursuing, pressure and weak. Men who get the women don't sit arond and think of how to please a woman and go so far out of their way. Way too much pressue and talking about the relationship and trying to make this work. The ones who try the hardest are the most likely to fail.

Gucci, we were on the phone because SHE CALLED ME and we have KIDS together, because there are still a MILLION things that need to be dicussed to divide up house stuff, figure out how long she needs my truck for , she has kidney surgery coming up , etc , etc. Going Dark is simply NOT an option.

She KNOWS Im busy, I have school , the house to pack , the new house to get ready , etc. Im treading a REAL fine line here, if I just " move on " then there's a VERY real likelyhood she will just use that as validation in her own mind that I never really cared.

We were talking on the phone because NEITHER of us want to have any discussions in front of the kids, especially DD, she was coming over later to get stuff and pick up the kids. Im sorry but Im NOT going to not talk to her at all. Part of DBing is also to be able to be a " friend " no ? Well how the hell am I supposed to be a friend and be there for her to talk to if I ignore her ?

You say me asking for the number for the MC is " pressure " I simply want to fact check and try to determine whats true and whats a lie. Now how am I supposed to do that if I dont ask her for it in a non threatning, non R way ? If you have the answer for that magic trick I'd love to hear it. I NEVER said anything about US going, I only asked for the number in an innocent way because I wanted to speak to them myself. SHE was the one that mentioned that WE " wouldnt be doing that for a long time "

Yes Im well aware of not chasing. But I'll say again, for her and her personality type and the way she thinks , if I show NO interest at all, then that will most certainly validate for her that I never really cared afterall. On some level she's testing to see how far and for how long Im willing to go to get her back, after 14 years I think I know most of how she ticks. You also have to keep in mind Im in competition with OM for her. And there's NO WAY Im just gonna let him win without a fight.

As far as the trying to reach stuff for her, knowing her back is screwed up , and actually showing a 180 , I should have just sat there and watched her struggle while stuffing my face with lunch? Which is one of her MAJOR complaints ? That I always put myself first. Seriously ??????

What did I "ask her on the phone " ?? Gucci
Im going to say goodnight to my kids EVERY SINGLE NIGHT NO EXCEPTIONS. When she left that afternoon, I still had NO idea if I was going to be able to get the tickets last minute. SHe asked me to try and let her know by the time I called to say goodnight to DD , because it was HER weekend and she had plans herself. SHe DID NOT have to let me take DD tonite to the show. So out of respect for her request, I asked to speak to her to let her know that I DID get the tickets and what time I wanted to pick up DD, I didnt want to pass the message thru DD, for any number of reasons, including that it was a surprise for DD.

How else was I supposed to handle it ?????

Im NOT " thinking of moving into a place for HER " And I DID NOT TELL HER THAT !!!! I didnt even know for sure I had the place until TODAY. The FACT is I HAVE to downsize, it is something I can afford, the guy is willing to be VERY flexible on improvements and changes and working out a lease purchase with me next year. I LIKE the same style porches and its something relatively cheap and easy that I can do. I need the project, the house will look better for it and it just so happens that type of thing will push her buttons, Im NOT going to apologize for that OR for trying to do stuff with the kids and offering invitations for her to tag along.

Unless Im crazy, one of the points in DB is to create non threating, non R related opportunities with your spouse, so they start once again WANTING to be around you. You seem to be going against the grain of that with what your saying. BTW, I noticed the two things you never addressed was whether or not Clinical Depression could be treated WITHOUT meds AND if I should in fact tell her during our next session that YES im angry and why .

Nope. Quite the opposite. She is moving on and it is making you become the man she always wanted. That in itself should tell you how good it works when a person shows they are moving on. What you say won't work for YOU is exactly what IS working for her to get you to make changes... Think about that.. It wasn't UNTIL she moved on that you had your awakening.. THAT is the way it works for most everyone. Your WAW included.




Doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what SHE thinks. She views it as you putting pressure on her about getting MC'ing. Her responsse to you is evidence of that.



She wouldn't have said that if she didn't think you were pushing for getting MC. THAT is why she said it in answer to you asking for the number. She was telling you to forget about the MC.. You are not reading this correctly and it is going to backfire on you. If she wants MC'ing she will let YOU know. THAT is how to handle it. It is by letting HER tell you she wants it and will make the arrangements. If not, you are wasting your time. Counseling only works if both people want it to work.




Wrong again..Why? Did you act like you didn't care for her in your relationship? That isn't what I remember you telling us. If you knew her so well you wouldn't have lost her in the first place. YOU ARE WRONG. Looks like you are the type that has to learn the hard way. Your choice. Don't say I didn't tell you, because I have.

I am trying to help you from making mistakes. AND you are making quite a few. You don't know her as well as you think.
If you did you would have known she was going to live with her ex. etc. etc. etc... I would hope that you would listen to me because I DO know what I am talking about. I have been doing it for 20 plus years longer than you have been at it. Do it your way if you must.

So either you are lying about those things or you lack confidence. A man who does those things can't possibly believe that his woman would think that he didn't care about her unless he lacks confidence in himself. You are desperate here and not thinking clearly about what really is going on.



This shows me you lack confidence in who you are. A man that does those things should be letting her walk away with his head held high and be showing her with his actions this:
"If you can find someone who cares more for you and treats you better, then be my guest. There are PLENTY of women out there who would love a man who is faithful, who tells them they are beautiful, gives them random cards, flowers and gifts and doesn't have a wandering eye." You lack confidence. I would call her bluff on this one and walk away with my head held high. Did you make some mistakes? Yes, probably. Haven't we all? I would let reality stare HER in the face here AND find a woaman who does want a man like that. AND there are plenty that do.

Of course I didnt act like I didnt care !! But what I've discovered is that we were speaking two completely different " love languages" so the things I mentioned that I thought were showing her I cared werent what she needed to fulfill her.

At this point, I find it VERY hard to believe that she would actually be thinking about "losing me " to someone else. Especially considering the fact that she's SOOOOOO furious with me and that I " broke her heart ". She didnt give a damn about what her EX was doing for 14 years when he broke it. So why should I expect any different ???
Since you've been doing this so much longer then me, then by all means please explain how the 180's Im doing, which is mentioned SO heavily as a positive factor in bringing a WAS back is going to work???

You keep saying, " of course she's pissed, it took this type of thing to you to be the man she always wanted " sooooooooo what Im just supposed to NOT make the changes ???

And as far as that goes. Im not "changing into the man she always wanted ". I WAS that man and lost myself and am changing BACK to what she fell in love with in the first place.

As for MCing ?? Like I said, on some level that is what we're doing with the neighbor counselor, whether she realizes it or not. I dont think it occurs to her because its not " officially " MCing. But that is in fact the dynamic thats taking place as a part of our discussions.