Thank you, everyone. Newmama - you asked if I have the strenghth to end it over his failure to end the "friendship." this is something I ask myself every day. I think I do, and then I start moving in that direction . . . and then I panic. I start thinking of my four year old daughter and uprooting her . . . and then I start doubting that it is anything other than a friendship (no concrete proof other than too much contact with her). And then we have a night where we get a long and everything seems okay . . . and so on.
One other thing that is preventing me from acting is that I think his behavior is a result of problems in our relationship, not the cause of them. During periods of marital happiness, his call record indicates that he was NOT talking to her. During times where I've been stressed out about work and/or putting more pressure on him to help out with home/family, boom . . . their relationship blossoms. Now, I realize that turning to another woman is not an effective way to solve marriage problems. But, I worry that he won't want to work on things now because the problems don't go away once she's removed. The bottom line, I think, is that he is unhappy with teh high responsibilty we have in our lives (daughter, house payment, two high pressure careers) - and we're only 28. We did too much too fast. This may be a Quarterlife crisis or Early MLC for him. When he stops pulling his fair share it makes more work for me, and given that I work too, I have a hard time being understanding that I must do everything becasue he is tired of responsibility . . . hence the original friction. This friction lasted a month before the call records shoot up from that point until now (4 mos.). So, our problems are deeper than just her, I think when I look at the cause and effect timeline pattern.
Assuming I move forward and confront him/issue an ultimatum, do I -expose the new phone records and trends I found? -contact her and her boyfriend (who both work for the same company as my husband) when he's already established me as controlling/manipulative/demanding with his coworkers? - tell his parents? I fear that by airing our dirty laundry I will lose all respect with him.
Okay . . . I know this post sounds like I have no cajones, and that may be true. I guess part of being on this board is to help me develop those and shut up that panicked voice in my head.
One more thing. There are places on his call record for the past few days where he spent 10-12 mins each time on the phone where it appears he was talking to himself. The number listed is his own number - but 10-12 minutes twice in a day seems like a long time to be fiddling with voicemail (which I've recently checked and found empty - so he's not clearing out old messages). Does anyone know if there is a way to disguise numbers so that he can talk to another person but not have it show up that way on the call record? Maybe he's on to the fact that I am checking up?
One other thing that is preventing me from acting is that I think his behavior is a result of problems in our relationship, not the cause of them. During periods of marital happiness, his call record indicates that he was NOT talking to her. During times where I've been stressed out about work and/or putting more pressure on him to help out with home/family, boom . . . their relationship blossoms. Now, I realize that turning to another woman is not an effective way to solve marriage problems. But, I worry that he won't want to work on things now because the problems don't go away once she's removed. The bottom line, I think, is that he is unhappy with teh high responsibilty we have in our lives (daughter, house payment, two high pressure careers) - and we're only 28. We did too much too fast. This may be a Quarterlife crisis or Early MLC for him. When he stops pulling his fair share it makes more work for me, and given that I work too, I have a hard time being understanding that I must do everything becasue he is tired of responsibility . . . hence the original friction. This friction lasted a month before the call records shoot up from that point until now (4 mos.). So, our problems are deeper than just her, I think when I look at the cause and effect timeline pattern.
You're making EXCUSES for him, and I call "bullchit," I'm sorry. We all have problems; it's how you DEAL with them.
"OW isn't the reason we're breaking up" is typical wayward "script" in an affair situation. My position is, "No, she's not the REASON why we've had marital difficulty, but she IS the most immediate OBSTACLE."
Physiologically, when a person is involved with someone else, it will kill nearly any inclination they might have to work on their marriage and its underlying problems. Just Google "love lust PEA addiction" and do a little basic research on it.
Thank you, Puppy. This is the tough love I needed. I just spoke with a [very rational and admirable] friend and described the solutions everyone here has suggested for this problem. I was relieved to hear that she thinks that what you all suggest a reasonable course of action. So I'm feeling more empowered as we speak. Thanks.
g I move forward and confront him/issue an ultimatum, do I -expose the new phone records and trends I found? -contact her and her boyfriend (who both work for the same company as my husband) when he's already established me as controlling/manipulative/demanding with his coworkers? - tell his parents? I fear that by airing our dirty laundry I will lose all respect with him.
1st- what will your ultimatum conditions be- I think there should be a progression of steps...You are smart to wait and carefully plan although you are suffering.
2nd-you don't have to expose to his parents right away-you can let that happen at some point as you see things unfold.
3rd-I don't know about the boyfriend-if your H agrees to end it, then maybe this isn't necessary.
Ok about the ultimatum progression....a friend of mine did such a better job than I did (but I didn't meet her before my sitch!) Here is how she handled it:
-confronted her H about what she suspected (she had no hard core evidence even) -her H admitted he was "falling in love" with OW -she asked him if he was planning on divorcing her and the kids -He said they hadn't thought that far ahead -she told him that if he wanted to be with her then she and the kids would be fine- she would make sure he got to see them but she would move to her parents' town, go back to teaching, and would work on finding a good stepfather for them -He asked how often he would see the kids -She said like every other divorced dad- every other weekend (at this point his eyes were open wide)
She hopped in the car, took the kids, and drove to her parents house to spend the night. When she returned the next day she didn't bring it up to him until after he came from work. Then she asked him what he decided. He agreed to end it and did.
My point in illustrating what she did was that it was interesting how she turned it to WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO? IF YOU DECIDE HER THEN THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN. She also left him with those thoughts. Then she asked him the next day what he decided.
Progression from there (she thinks) would have been she would have asked him to move out, she would have started preparing for divorce and her future (not necessarily in 5 days but over the next couple of months) and then filed for D if he hadn't ended it.
Ok, being a teacher, here is the "non example" (don't do what I did bc it didn't work) Here is what I did- Jan 2 09 I confronted WH (no evidence), he admitted to "loving her" but denied a PA. I believed him (NO MAN LOVES A WOMAN UNLESS HE HAS "DONE" HER! okay maybe that is harsh but it is what my therapist told me) In the same conversation I said "WHO DO YOU CHOOSE? HER OR ME?" and guilted him, freaked out, etc. He said he couldn't decide-maybe if he had slept with her then I would leave him so he wouldn't have to choose. I pressured him to decide and a couple of hours later he agreed to end it. (but didn't)
Confrontation #2-3/17/09- I had suspected he was lying to me due to his distant behavior but his cell phone calls were "clean." My friend tells me to go online and check the records. He changed his password to our cell account. WIth the help of an online assistant,I got the password and saw her number. I call him immediately, flip out, tell him I am done- he can have her-said a bunch of stuff. (he was out of town on a work trip) I sent him emails of info about affairs being addictive and fantasies. Then he returns, I ask him if he is willing to end it. He says he doesn't know. I tell him to leave and even found a hotel for him. Then I leave out of town for several days to a friend's house so he can be alone in the house and think about it.
I receive an email saying something like "I need to make myself ignore my heart and follow my head-maybe the therapist can help me. The house is empty without you. I haven't felt this alone in years." NO I LOVE YOU-NO DECISION. The marriagebuilders people said I should have returned home that night to be with him. I thought I should punish him and make him "miss me" so I stayed a few more days without contact.
He said he wasn't willing to end contact with her but wanted to stay with me until S was born. I told him f-you- get the f out of this house and I want a D. We started completing D paperwork. I got cold feet. We went to the counselor who suggested a separation. We started S paperwork. Never got mailed in. And here we are today.
If I were to do it again, I would have done what you are doing- carefully plan what you will say, what you will do- and I see that my friend was CONFIDENT and CLEAR RIGHT AWAY about the future if he chose OW BUT she didn't pressure him on the spot- she gave him "some" time to let what she said sink in. Wow.
Last edited by newmama; 04/23/1005:17 AM.
me,34 exH,34 S,16 months S:3/31/09-left for OW started DBing 10/09 d final: sometime 10/10 current: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2022856&page=1 met in 2004
Ok about the ultimatum progression....a friend of mine did such a better job than I did (but I didn't meet her before my sitch!) Here is how she handled it:
-confronted her H about what she suspected (she had no hard core evidence even) -her H admitted he was "falling in love" with OW -she asked him if he was planning on divorcing her and the kids -He said they hadn't thought that far ahead -she told him that if he wanted to be with her then she and the kids would be fine- she would make sure he got to see them but she would move to her parents' town, go back to teaching, and would work on finding a good stepfather for them -He asked how often he would see the kids -She said like every other divorced dad- every other weekend (at this point his eyes were open wide)
She hopped in the car, took the kids, and drove to her parents house to spend the night. When she returned the next day she didn't bring it up to him until after he came from work. Then she asked him what he decided. He agreed to end it and did.
Well I went home feeling empowered to set the boundry last night. I made a list of exactly what I'd need from my husband in order to trust him:
1. He cuts off all non-work contact with her. 2. He never rides in the car with her. 3. He discloses all clients that they work on together. 4. No social events with her there. 5. No meals with her. 6. I get his work password/access to his work calendar. 7. If he talks to her on messenger for a work purpose (the usual mode of communication at his job), he leaves the message open all day so that I can see it when he returns. 8. She does not come to our house or anywhere near our house (believe it order not this technicality became an issue because he claims that when she previously dropped off food for him, he was not going against my wishes because she didn't come inside).
So, I went home and told him: A. I love him and our family so I am prepared to fight for our marriage and family. B. He needs to cut if off with her (including complete transparency - hence the above list). C. That I was prepared to take a more active approach in the form of kicking him out THAT NIGHT and enlisting the support of our friends/family if he wouldn't do the right things and cut it off.
He did try his usual tricks of turning it around, calling me crazy, but (being a teacher) I just used the parrot-technique. I constantly repeated "I see that this might feel like extreme behavior to you, but I am working on improving our marriage and this is what needs to happen. If you don't like it, you may leave." Our stickiest point was the work email - he didn't want to budge - but I just kept parroting "If you don't want to give me your work password, that's fine. But then there will be no transparency so you will have to leave."
The odd thing was, by the end of the night, I had all of his passwords and his full agreement, and he seemed in a good mood. It's almost like he was happy I took a tough stand for our marriage. I still don't have this figured out, and of course I'm going to monitor like crazy.
My one reservation with this approach is that he is only accountable to me - if he is really agreeable to everything and willing to work things out, then great. But I am prepared to EXPOSE everything if I find even one backslide from my list.
