Yes, from the GUY's perspective, when he pulls over, you stop, smile, and make small talk like nothing's wrong your H thinks
a. She's ok with me two timing her - cool! b. She lets me talk to her in public, everyone thinks we're ok c. She's gonna wait for me as long as I want... d. I am gonna go and bang my bimbo again
Well no wonder Marie's confused (as well as anyone with an X chromosome)! Here's how a woman interprets this:
He stops her on the roadside, she smiles and is polite because a "nice girl" doesn't create drama or cause distress. Only trashy girls do that.
She's thinking:
a. He's grown tired of bimbo b. He's looking to re-connect c. He's flirting to get back in her good graces d. He's ready to dump bimbo and re-commit to her
Hello! We are NOT on the same page, Allen!
So you're saying Marie should:
1. Be business-like instead of nice 2. Keep conversations short and un-personal 3. NEVER let him think things are ok by smiling and being congenial
...is that right?
So chuck the nice manners and do a little ball-busting instead?
Thanks so much, Red, for your thoughtful response. I really appreciate the time, effort, and insights you put into it. I feel really alone in this situation and despite everything, still love him. I've had almost 12 years of nothing but good experiences with my husband - this craziness started 5 1/2 months ago but I can't forget what a good man he was and how kind and loving he was to me - until I confronted him about his drinking and my fear that he would fail his thesis, not knowing that he'd already done that once before in his life...
Allen, thanks for writing, too. Our entire discussion was under a minute but then became too much for me. I just tried to be as dignified and polite as possible and to escape before I risked any tears or real conversation, as I didn't think I could keep it together. I succeeded in maintaining my composure but I did get the impression that he was offended that I didn't want to take his offer of a ride and wanted to get away.
I can understand taking a hard line and cutting him off if he weren't making some kind of overtures to open lines of communication with me, but why - if I refuse to even talk with him - should he leave the bimbo (who has his clothes ironed to a "T," who cooks and cleans for him and doesn't care how much he drinks, and has a reputation in town for being "easy" so God knows what she does in bed - besides giving ME chlamydia!) I would like to try to reconcile but if I just give him the cold shoulder and allow no communications, how can there be ANY progress?
Discovered OW1: 1/10, H refused to talk. H moved in w 1st OW: 3/10 H cheated on OW1: 12/10 H left OW1, moved in w OW2: 4/11 D: 9/11 Still miss H. Don't understand, H just left, never even talked w me.
Well no wonder Marie's confused (as well as anyone with an X chromosome)! Here's how a woman interprets this:
He stops her on the roadside, she smiles and is polite because a "nice girl" doesn't create drama or cause distress. Only trashy girls do that.
She's thinking:
a. He's grown tired of bimbo b. He's looking to re-connect c. He's flirting to get back in her good graces d. He's ready to dump bimbo and re-commit to her
Hello! We are NOT on the same page, Allen!
So you're saying Marie should:
1. Be business-like instead of nice 2. Keep conversations short and un-personal 3. NEVER let him think things are ok by smiling and being congenial
...is that right?
So chuck the nice manners and do a little ball-busting instead?
THAT would get the point across loud and clear?
I am saying since he's moved out you shut him out... I don't consider that ball busting... to my mind ball busting would be charging over to his home and giving him a good verbal thrashing on his doorstep...
I am saying his world is a painful, self-destructive mess and adults steer CLEAR of that...
As long as this man ignores the commitments he's made you ignore HIM... let HIM realize that he's NOT going to be let off the hook to cake eat and take your DIGNITY BACK
Have you read Penny Tupy's protection phase eBoook SR?
You should read that.. it will explain this much better than I can...
Men yes don't think the same way as women here...
Let me put something else up here...
We can categorize infidelity into two types here :
a. Monogamous infidelity b. Polygamous infidleity
MOST WOMEN will aim for the former... when they start an affair, the Husband is OUT of their head, they keep room for only ONE.. usually... There can be only one... (Key Highlander music here..)
Many men, particularly the less mature men will aim for b, they want to CAKE EAT...They can cheat and lie and have sex with their wife etc and just juggle both lives fine...
I suspect Mc's OM here is the latter... He did move out yes, but I suspect that he would be more than happy to pursue MC as well if she was open to it....
This is NOT going to end the affair to invite that...
When someone starts an affair, they have three routes they can go :
a. Maintain the secret infidelity as long as one can - cake eat b. Pursue divorce and roll the dice with OW (less than 1% of affair couples have successful marriages long term) c. End the Affair and rebuild the marriage
Men unlike women are much more comfortable with a for the long term... Women will find b more attractive than a man would..
IN most cases option a is the MOST attractiev to either gender... It's the least inconvenient... It's the least disruptive, and keeps the excitement at its peak...
Exposure, Denying your spouse emotional connection, Separation, etc take option a OFF the table and FORCE a spouse to choose B or C...
Even if they choose B it drops a LOT of reality onto their lap that they avoid with option a.... The moving an affair from option a to option b takes away a lot of the excitement and an serve to assist in diffusing the affair long term... a spouse pursuing option b isn't the end of the world
THIS guy wants A, I am almost positive of it.. WHen mc cuts him oFF and exposes him, she forces him into B... This guy wants the comfort of having both spouses in his pocket... He's seen his buddy live like that and wants to EMULATE that behviour in order to win some recognition...
Just because a man pulls his car over, checks you out, and talks with charm does not in any way indicate the man has ANY LONG TERM INTEREST in you whatsoEVER
With women this is more the case than men... Women far more often than men focus on the long term... Even the OW in your sitch SR... that woman is thinking LONG TERM... She KNOWS where she's going... Your husband wants the marriage, the famliy, the home AND he wants the secret affair on the side like all his buddies at work most likely do... I don't think your H has any intent on divorcing you... Nor do I think the OM in MC'c case wants to divorce her... He wants the best of both worlds... A
Refuse A by NOT GOING THERE... That's my advice, you can't end the afair, but you CAN control A from happening.. you FORCE them to choose B or C ONLY...
Force reality on them in the form of B or C and see what happens... That's my approach
I have exposed the affair - to our friends, his parents, and his coworkers who are our friends. I was polite to him the other day when he pulled over, but brief and then walked away (refusing his offer of a ride) after less than a minute. He didn't need to know that I HAD to get away to maintain my composure and dignity, but that's why I got the heck out of Dodge.
It's interesting Allen assumed many of his coworkers are also philanderers, because they ARE - and several are getting divorced - and one of them was just in the mental ward of the local hospital because they were afraid he was going to kill himself because his wife finally got sick of his philandering and (to his shock) kicked him to the curb. My husband *was* hanging out with happily married professionals (professors, researchers, writers, etc.) but has rejected all of his old friends (and me) and is now the King of the Mechanics and the local "Stammtisch" (the drinkers who come to his bar every day) and many of these guys cheat on their wives - and several are getting divorced right now.
Since he lost 60 lbs (I think there's a lot of MLC behavior in here - he's also started running and is freaked about hair loss and wrinkles), he has no use for his old friends and has started calling them "fat f*&ks." These are people who have been good and kind to him and made him laugh and with whom he's had interesting, animated discussions for more than 10 years! Now he says he's an athlete and an outdoorsman (this came up as he was preparing to not complete his thesis on time - and is blaming ME for having "forced" him to do his MBA, which I most certainly did NOT do!)
So I think there's MLC issues in here as well as identity questions - now that I know he flunked out of college over a thesis because of too much drinking and that he has now repeated this with his MBA, his "I'm not an intellectual, I'm an outdoorsman/athlete" identity change/excuse makes more sense. But to kick ME to the curb and take up with a bimbo who only went to school 'til she was 15 and - as a barmaid - probably doesn't care HOW much he drinks? That also makes sense, in a sick, self-destructive way.
All the emails he's been sending and the things he's been saying to our friends seem to show he's feeling me out a bit to see if there's any opening for talking. I don't think without talking there's any way to go anywhere but directly to divorce court. I understand that Allen's position is to make him crawl, but I don't think that's in my husband - and I don't think that's what DB-ing is about, either. I don't intend to be a doormat, but I do think that we have to at least be able to talk - and that my short-bordering-on-curt answers to his many friendly emails trying to start discussions over the last few weeks might have been a mistake on my part.
Discovered OW1: 1/10, H refused to talk. H moved in w 1st OW: 3/10 H cheated on OW1: 12/10 H left OW1, moved in w OW2: 4/11 D: 9/11 Still miss H. Don't understand, H just left, never even talked w me.
MC, I always reccomend a four point script to everyone during intervention phase and to keep repeating that...
ONE Of the points IS that you WANT to save the marriage and invite him to go to family therapy...
THAT should be a message sent regularly... but NOT anything ELSE.. no casual conversations or drive by's...
I don't think you should be "talking" aobut it.. etiher he agrees to explore reconcilliation, or you shut him OUT...
he has to make a clear commitment to do teh WORK... period.. otherwise he's just USING you
If he wants to talk, he talks to a family therapist who is trained to handle these things... you and ow are too involved to be able to help this on your own
How is he using me? He's not getting anything from me but the briefest of answers to his many questions. (I often ignore some of his questions when he asks them.)
Also, do you agree with what MWD has to say about DB-ing? I think she has a lot of good points about being willing to talk and listen but to (as they say in Alanon) protect yourself as much as possible by "detaching with love." That's my approach, especially as alcohol is playing a role in this. MWD and a lot of the midlife crisis literature say that bimbos and booze are a symptom, not a cause of MLC, so I take that into consideration with how I am approaching this. I am not being welcoming, warm, approving, smiley or any of that to my husband, but I think I may have gone too far with going dark, as (having read over his many emails over the last few weeks) he really does seem to have been trying - on multiple occasions - to start a conversation.
He knows that sex is out of the question with me as long as he's with bimbo - we've already been through this as he tried.
Red (and anyone else out there) - would also love to hear what you think.
Thanks for the insights, both of you.
Discovered OW1: 1/10, H refused to talk. H moved in w 1st OW: 3/10 H cheated on OW1: 12/10 H left OW1, moved in w OW2: 4/11 D: 9/11 Still miss H. Don't understand, H just left, never even talked w me.
In the case of infidelity no, I don't agree with MWD that continued contact helps.. IN my opinion I think it just results in teh infidelity being prolonged unecessarily
a. He won't miss you if you keep feeding him emotional contact b. He gets the ego boost of feeling like you are in his pocket still
If you cut him oFF... COMPLETELY... He will go into a withdrawal type of situation.. it takes time, but it does kick in...
I agree with MWD UNLESS there's an affair giong on... in which case no, I don't think continued contact helps, I think it just prolongs the affair and puts the marriage through a lot of needless anguish.
Here's a sample protection phase letter :
From SYMCINC.com Penny tupy:
Protection Phase Letter:
Dear ________,
I love you and I married you for life. I want to remain married to you. I am willing and committed to doing what it takes to be the spouse you've always wanted and to address the things that I did wrong in our marriage.
The affair is so painful for me that it will destroy the love I have for you. In order to protect those feelings I must end all contact with you. As soon as the affair is over I would love to talk with you about our future. Until that time please respect my wish for no contact whatsoever in any form.
In an emergency you can reach me through ______. Arrangements for seeing children and handling finances are_____.
Sincerely, [YOUR NAME]
THIS is a bold statement, if you have an auto reply setup on your email to SEND this to him EACH TIME he emails you and you IGNORE the email he will keep getting the message
