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Ahhh okay... I'm starting to understand. Let's see if we can't clarify a couple other things though. Perhaps let's not look at the 180s for the moment - it might be confusing the issue.
Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot
I found myself saying yes to the 'walking away" part....

And you wanting to walk away because he's withdrawing? Further, with regards to the type of support you're wanting - are you wanting help to prevent you from walking away?

Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

With my new R, sometimes, the only solution seems to be to end it. But then, I find myself resisting that boundary,

So you're wanting to learn how to set new healthy boundaries as to how you want to be treated within the R? To me, what you've said about sounds like an unhealthy wall, not a boundary ie) if I don't like what you're saying or doing I'll end our R, period.

Why don't you pick one action he is taking, that you'd like to create a boundary for? Just try explaining it in one or two sentences; I'm going to go over to my thread right now, and pull some info off it in which Coach explains boundaries. I think it might be very helpful for you.


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Okay, this is what Coach posted in my thread a couple of days ago with regards to boundaries.
Originally Posted By: Coach

"When you do _____________. I feel ____________________. If you continue to do _______________ then I will ___________."

Boundaries let people know how they can treat you. It's very loving to yourself and healthy. Model this good behavior for him. Men are very trainable.



And this boundary, for example, is what he suggested regarding how to respond to someone who is speaking disrespectfully to you:
Originally Posted By: Coach

"When you say things like__________. I feel disrespected, unloved and unappreciated by you. It is hurting our relationship. If you talk to me that way in public again I will leave you and go home by myself."


And then just about boundaries in general:
Originally Posted By: Coach

Boundaries are all about behavior, something someone does, its' not personal or a ultimatum. Not making it personal keeps people from getting defensive.

When you state a boundary then the other person should validate your feelings, "I can see how you would feel that way when I do that."

that's a dialouge, it's modeling healthy, open, honest communication. most people have never experienced it.


I hope that helps with regards to boundaries. There's lots of info on this forum about boundaries because it's a fundamental principle in DBing. So be sure to just read through more threads too, even do a search on 'boundaries'.

Further, I know you said you were reading Henry Cloud's book on boundaries; what other books have you read about them? Or, what other books have you read regarding communicating in Rs?


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Whoops sorry I should have expanded on that. When I said this:

Originally Posted By: prairiegirl
To me, what you've said about sounds like an unhealthy wall, not a boundary ie) if I don't like what you're saying or doing I'll end our R, period.


What I meant to say was "It sounds like an unhealthy wall, not a boundary ie) if I don't like what you're saying or doing, I'll end our R, rather than asserting my thoughts and feelings to you and asking for the treatment I do want.


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Okay, I'm going to take a post at a time...

As far as ending the relationship, I don't see that as an unhealthy response, if it's the right one. For instance, in his withdrawing, I see the possibilities of passive-aggression and verbal abuse. That is part of my history or baggage, whichever you prefer. I have a long history of being abused, starting in childhood. Removing myself from the relationships I've been in has been one of the only ways to deal with most of it. For instance, a situation with my dad escalated to the point of threats and his wanting to take it outside, I kicked him from my home, then didn't speak to him at all for a while and minimally for a year. Boy has he changed his tune!

My ex sexually assaulted me, and the answer was to exit.

Now, I am having to piece together my new guy's motivations
(because motivations mean a lot to me), and it's so confusing. Although I don't want this to be abusive, I have little else to base the information on. Sometimes, I can see and understand that he has his valid reasons for doing what he does, and at others, I see that he doesn't.

Given that he also has a history of abuse...done to him, I think he and I can offer a lot of understanding to one another.

Okay, and to be clear, I'm not trying to be defensive here. In fact, I am really super glad you're not taking the stance, "He's being a jerk, leave him." I've heard that till I want to throw socks at the next person to say that, cleanliness being undetermined.

I do see him making efforts toward things it seems others have stated to him were bad for relationships, and then when I have expressed some boundaries and such, he has adhered to them. So, at some level there is respect there.

As I said though, I have had to piece this all together, and it's been exhausting. heh.

Okay, next post...

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Well, about boundaries, specifically, this is an odd case for me. As I said, I see him making efforts in some areas, plus I don't think he can help withdrawing as much as I wish he could. But it still doesn't help the hurt, and I still react to it.

I'm ready to move beyond reacting and work on being a friend during them, even more. It's like I have to shift between girlfriend and friend modes with his moods. And another hurtful aspect, which I've learned is fairly normal for people with his disorder, is to maintain less intense friendships fairly well, but to basically abandon the closest ones. There are fewer expectations and all from those where the connection is less intense. Thing is, though, as far as expectations go, I have applied very minimal ones, and I have intentionally evaluated as many of them as I can, to make sure they are real needs, rather than just wants I expect to be fulfilled by the R.

This has revealed my struggle with the withdrawing, and it's, as far as I can tell, the only one I have. As I said, I default to: this is abusive, and I need to protect myself.

But when I try, I enter that waffling cycle, where when I consider him individually, I can see his needs, and when I consider myself individually, all I see is how much I'm being hurt, and how he seems to not even address this. Now, when he returns to the relationship, he does apologize, and offers at least some explanation, but it isn't always satisfactory. When he says he has his reasons, I don't push for them. I do think this is the best way to approach this. I think he will tell me when he feels most comfortable...when he fully trusts me.

Thanks for the reminder on boundaries. I have discussed them for many years, but it was really hard to apply them in a give-and-take relationship with my ex, because there just wasn't one. And what I mean by that is that applying boundaries with the assurance that your relationship will last is different from if you see that it's heading toward its doom. You can still do it, but there is that pressure there, that this relationship is failing, and so many of your boundaries take on the feel of, "If you do x, I'll...leave you in the dust, bucko!" lol! And with abuse, there isn't a relationship to be had, anyway, until the abuse ends.

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Sleep has been an issue for me, lately, but as I laid down last night, I got this...inspiration of sorts. Basically, the message was, "He loves you. Start there."

Problem is, I keep analyzing what happens, because...well, that was my MO while trying to survive with my ex.

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Originally Posted By: prairiegirl

And you wanting to walk away because he's withdrawing? Further, with regards to the type of support you're wanting - are you wanting help to prevent you from walking away?


I think I answered this in part, but it may not be clear.

I don't want to walk away at all. I want to love this man, for as long as I can.

I'm tending toward that option because I see his withdrawal as abusive, at times, through the filter of my past.

I want help in being an appropriate friend or girlfriend, to him, and one that can model healthy behavior to him. I don't think he's ever known anyone quite like me, as educated or as knowledgeable in relationships (as a partner I mean), nor someone as committed as I am, but we're both scared, and reacting. One of us needs to stop reacting. lol. It's gonna have to be me. So, that's what I need the most help with, and that's what the 180 would be for. Appropriate boundaries would need to feed into that.

Last edited by LuvsMeLuvsMeNot; 05/29/10 09:41 PM.
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Oh, gee whiz! Books!!!

I have a few. The Harley materials, His Needs, Her Needs, Lovebusters, Surviving an Affair. NOT "Just Friends," The Verbally Abusive Relationship, Why Doe He Do That?, Out of the Shadows, Why We Love, Boundaries...

Have read The Five Love Languages, and others. As a premed, I've read about disorders that affect relationships.

I can't say that I've read anything specifically on communication, but many of these cover communication and negotiation. As for boundaries, not much else, but I've read a number of online materials, as well.

Last edited by LuvsMeLuvsMeNot; 05/29/10 09:48 PM.
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Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

Thing is, though, as far as expectations go, I have applied very minimal ones, and I have intentionally evaluated as many of them as I can, to make sure they are real needs, rather than just wants I expect to be fulfilled by the R.

But you do realize that it's ok to have wants that you expect to be fulfilled by the R right? It's OK to want emotional closeness and to expect that for the most part, he'll be there when you really need him, and not fleeing to protect himself from the closeness, rather than being there for you. Emotional safety in a relationship isn't just a want, it's a need.

Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

all I see is how much I'm being hurt, and how he seems to not even address this. Now, when he returns to the relationship, he does apologize, and offers at least some explanation, but it isn't always satisfactory. When he says he has his reasons, I don't push for them. I do think this is the best way to approach this.

This is where I think your thought process might be a bit distorted. And where you need to apply a boundary. If his explanation isn't satisfactory to you, you have to trust that it isn't enough for you, and that it's OK that it isn't. When you don't push for a reason, what you're essentially telling him is that it's OK for him to withdraw from you, then not even honor or respect you enough to provide you an explanation. Tell, me, what is it about yourself that you don't feel is WORTH getting an explanation for being treated like that??

Luvs, take it from me. I've been in an R in which I glossed over my hurts over my H's withdrawal, for the sake of HIS 'comfort' for so many years I ended up with completely shut down emotions a couple years ago. Got myself into therapy because I was so out of touch with my emotions and didn't trust my own thoughts, needs or wants anymore. It's all about self-esteem and respect. You cannot allow yourself to NOT tell people when they hurt you. It will do serious damage to your self-esteem.

If you're being hurt, you need to apply a boundary like: When you withdraw from me, I feel hurt, disrespected and neglected. If you do this again, I will _________. Fill in what you feel is appropriate to the situation.

Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

I think he will tell me when he feels most comfortable...when he fully trusts me.

Luvs, I'm sorry but I disagree. I think you're teaching him (above) how to treat you...I don't think it has anything to do with how much he trusts you. I think it has to do with how much you trust yourself and the R. If you teach him that he can withdraw from you and never have to own up to how much it hurts you, then that's how he'll keep treating you. Because THAT'S what he finds comfortable.

Frankly, I think you could benefit from some self-esteem books, not just all the relationship books! I've been reading two - Nathaniel Branden's 'Six Pillars of Self-Esteem' and Fanning & McKay's 'Self Esteem'. The latter is excellent in discussing distorted thought processes, and the first is a wonderful grounding in the essence of practices that lead to self-esteem. They both have extremely helpful exercises. I hope that's ok for me to suggest to you - I hope you don't take offense to what I've written.

Sorry that's all I can write right now; don't have a lot of privacy. Oh and PS I fully agree about situations of abuse. If there's any abuse, Rs HAVE to end - sorry if I gave a different impression. No question about it!


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Originally Posted By: prairiegirl
Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

Thing is, though, as far as expectations go, I have applied very minimal ones, and I have intentionally evaluated as many of them as I can, to make sure they are real needs, rather than just wants I expect to be fulfilled by the R.

But you do realize that it's ok to have wants that you expect to be fulfilled by the R right? It's OK to want emotional closeness and to expect that for the most part, he'll be there when you really need him, and not fleeing to protect himself from the closeness, rather than being there for you. Emotional safety in a relationship isn't just a want, it's a need.

Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

all I see is how much I'm being hurt, and how he seems to not even address this. Now, when he returns to the relationship, he does apologize, and offers at least some explanation, but it isn't always satisfactory. When he says he has his reasons, I don't push for them. I do think this is the best way to approach this.

This is where I think your thought process might be a bit distorted. And where you need to apply a boundary. If his explanation isn't satisfactory to you, you have to trust that it isn't enough for you, and that it's OK that it isn't. When you don't push for a reason, what you're essentially telling him is that it's OK for him to withdraw from you, then not even honor or respect you enough to provide you an explanation. Tell, me, what is it about yourself that you don't feel is WORTH getting an explanation for being treated like that??

Luvs, take it from me. I've been in an R in which I glossed over my hurts over my H's withdrawal, for the sake of HIS 'comfort' for so many years I ended up with completely shut down emotions a couple years ago. Got myself into therapy because I was so out of touch with my emotions and didn't trust my own thoughts, needs or wants anymore. It's all about self-esteem and respect. You cannot allow yourself to NOT tell people when they hurt you. It will do serious damage to your self-esteem.

If you're being hurt, you need to apply a boundary like: When you withdraw from me, I feel hurt, disrespected and neglected. If you do this again, I will _________. Fill in what you feel is appropriate to the situation.

Originally Posted By: LuvsMeLuvsMeNot

I think he will tell me when he feels most comfortable...when he fully trusts me.

Luvs, I'm sorry but I disagree. I think you're teaching him (above) how to treat you...I don't think it has anything to do with how much he trusts you. I think it has to do with how much you trust yourself and the R. If you teach him that he can withdraw from you and never have to own up to how much it hurts you, then that's how he'll keep treating you. Because THAT'S what he finds comfortable.

Frankly, I think you could benefit from some self-esteem books, not just all the relationship books! I've been reading two - Nathaniel Branden's 'Six Pillars of Self-Esteem' and Fanning & McKay's 'Self Esteem'. The latter is excellent in discussing distorted thought processes, and the first is a wonderful grounding in the essence of practices that lead to self-esteem. They both have extremely helpful exercises. I hope that's ok for me to suggest to you - I hope you don't take offense to what I've written.

Sorry that's all I can write right now; don't have a lot of privacy. Oh and PS I fully agree about situations of abuse. If there's any abuse, Rs HAVE to end - sorry if I gave a different impression. No question about it!


So the Six pillars book was good? My hope was reading these type of books would provide me insight on building and maintaining self-esteem in a structured manner, and to perhaps better understand it.

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