And yes I realize he's been gone for a long time, but he hasn't processed the affair... he's escaping the damage rather than healing it...
He thinks having a revenge affair and hurting YOU is going to make him feel better... It won't... He can escape the hurt YOUR OM brought into his home for a while, but it will keep haunting him...
I am hoping a FT offering to help him process might make some inroads... You need a neutral party to motivate him to talk about what he's been through... a GOOD FT is ideal, a close marriage-educated friend is a good alternative...
I'm guessing the gf is closer to the brother in mindset as well as I believe they have "hung out together" ... I do need to lay off the pressure, I have done the begging, crying, etc and now am trying to be cool (again) with just friends. I also have watched the trust come and go - last year the littlest thing like the alarm not going off in the morning would set him off into "See, you haven't changed, I can't trust you I'm a fool for ever even believing I could" and I've heard this cyclically. I am continuing to show changes, but almost psychically, he walks in the house and things go wrong "proving" to him how irresponsible I am - no matter the changes I have shown. I have been very reliable about when and where I am, etc...
He has told me he is "not as confident as I am that we will get back together" and more recently "not coming back" if that is "hostility toward reconsiliation." He did claim "if we reconsile" for a while there but I think now he was lying to trick me into signing legal paperwork. But, it could have been true, I dn't know.
He has said he is not coming back - but he has also said he's too hurt...that the hurt is "still alive in him" and he "doesn't want a relationship where there is so much baggage/pain. I guess this comes from comparing me to OW?
He never mentions the affair. He mentions fights we've had over the years and how he "should have faced that we weren't meant to be together...should have not kept trying and believing things would get better...we had bad chemistry from the start...part of me thinks this is all regretful feelings that may pass...that's what I"m hoping for ... but he hasn't changed that tune in many months.
And just as the anger was dying down, and just when he was starting to do a few nice things for me - he says "I'm not coming back". So I don't know anymore what to think.
My vote is also that he is hurt and scared and is partying to avoid processing. Yes I do knowwhat this is like and I was completely unaware of what I was doing until he left me. I don't know how I can shake him up like this as he has walked.
AS for MC, we were with a crappy one when my fling came out last year. We dropped him. I got an IC I loved, and finally got H to return to MC last December - and I asked my IC if he would facilitate - he specializes in MC and I thought it was better to try someone who had some background in our sitch, rather than start from scratch - and risk another crappy MC.
I don't know how good this MC actually is - he says that H is showing up, listening, but not invested or connecting with me and has encouraged me to move on. I was very upset about this and told him I am not interested in giving up, however, I will work on backing off and giving more space.
H is very narrowminded when it comes to Cs. I studied graduate level psychology = I know the people who become therapists and wouldn't trust most of them! lol. I agree wholeheartedly with you Allen that many aren't good and one good one can make a difference. But H's song and dance has been the same - "he tried in MC when we were living together and so nothing will be different. People don't change" IT's not true, but there's no reasoning with him. He would never change therapists again, and he keeps going inconsistently anyhow so I'm waiting to see if the other shoe will drop and he'll just quit.
Like I said, we've been more coparenting in MC...how not to fight, etc...like I said, H has said he is open and even would like to process what happened in our M...but when I bring it up he gets rageful and defensive and it goes nowhere ... he brings up nothing. So I"m confused.
He won't really listen to MC saying he "should" do anything, certainly not stop dating. No friends or family to talk to him either. He wouldn't listen. He is highly investedin being right and in control, etc.
Yes I understand the illusions he (may be) under (if he's not actually done done). But I had to be shaken up that I would lose everything before I wiggled my way out of my sitch...he's controlled all the assets so he loses none and no custody time - and he has walked away and set up dates with this woman...what could I shake him up to lose? How could I wake him up?
And yes I realize he's been gone for a long time, but he hasn't processed the affair... he's escaping the damage rather than healing it...
He thinks having a revenge affair and hurting YOU is going to make him feel better... It won't... He can escape the hurt YOUR OM brought into his home for a while, but it will keep haunting him...
I am hoping a FT offering to help him process might make some inroads... You need a neutral party to motivate him to talk about what he's been through... a GOOD FT is ideal, a close marriage-educated friend is a good alternative...
I agree iwth you about the OW being revenge driven I have felt this for many months...it's nice to have someone else think this too.
AS for FTmotivating him...our MC is good, but he's not pushy and if H clams up, what can be done? How can he encourage him to process this stuff? IF you have some clues, I can certainly ask the MC if he's willing.
Although he lied that he would give our M a chance, and yet never really did - complained we never talked about the "big issues" in the M< but never brought any up, including the fling, and got very defensive and shut down when I brought up deeper issues of why our M got where it did and what I was going through at the time (in MC). He showed up and listened, but ultimately seems to not care or try. He has continued to hold the position of total blame - "you abandoned me, not the other way aroun;, I don't have to change, you do; This M was doomed from day one and I should have seen it and not put up with your crap ever - should have never married you" etc etc etc....
Hi again Cuccoon.
1. You need to understand that until he processes the betrayal he is NOT going to receive explanations or background of the infidelity very well.
I know you want him to hear how YOU felt, but it is WAY TOO EASY for the sharing of feelings to sound like an excuse.
When the affair hits home, and that HARD, REPEATED OFFENSES to boot... If you say ANYTHING other than that you are sorry it just makes it HURT a LOT MORE...
When he says
"You hurt me, you abandoned me, you betrayed me"
If you say ANYTHING other than "I'm sorry, it was wrong" it just TWISTS the knife in...
And you likely responded to this with
"I was lonely" "You weren't around" "You never touch me" "I didn't feel loved"
All of that just sounds like you are VALIDATING or EXCUSING the affair.
For at least six months you need to CAP that until HE can process the affair.. he WILL need to hear what was going on with you, but THAT soon will just DO MORE DAMAGE... I suspect that's what happened.... You wanted to share how you felt at the time and he took it as you justifying yourself.
Infidelity is NEVER an acceptable response to marital probelems... NEVER associate infidelity with them in conversation with a wounded spouse... It will NOT get the response you expect.
The way to handle it is to JUST LISTEN and SYMPATHIZE, apologize as often as you can...
This is in the books too that I mentioned, as well as other good advice.
The time to talk about the other problems in your marriage will happen, but until HE TRUSTS you and has processed the infidelity he will NOT accept other relationship talk.
When you betray your spouse with an affair nothing else will enter their mind other than that betrayal for a long time.
Forcing other stuff in just DOES DAMAGE.
I would toss the MLC stuff right now, it just sounds like an excuse, it isnt' going to help you.
You both have to understand that love is a commitment to adulthood and maturity, not to acting on emotional impulses and scorekeeping/fingerpointing when things get difficult.
I think you understand that now. Love is a commitment to maturity.
I love you means "I am going to commit to you for life and accept all the heartbreaks that come with it"
It has nothing to do with "I feel really excited and dizzy right now so I must be in love"
He needs to heal from the infidelity before you can talk about other issues... to HIM, until THAT is HEALED, he won't consider anything else worthy of talk.. THAT wound is the BIGGEST to HIM, and it is ALSO the MOST FRESH...
I know it's selfish, as you are hurting too, but this is wayward syndrome my dear, his hurt is the ONLY hurt he's concerned about right now... YOURS is on the backburner for now... THAT is something you have to get used to...
I know, he never did, those HERE HAVE.. it takes MONTHS to learn how to put YOUR FEELINGS aside and to JUST think about where your spouse is at... many drive their spouses away because they can't detach their emotions from their spouse long enough to heal the damage and motivate them to come back.
Allen, thank you for taking all this time with me
As I said, HE REFUSES TO TALK ABOUT THE AFFAIR. HE SAYS IT'S ALL THE OTHER STUFF IN OUR M PREVIOUS TO THAT.
Sure in the beginning I did both good an bad - I read those books then (I should reread them) and at times I listened, validated, apologized took complete responsibility for my mistakes. At other times, I said I was in MLC, but honestly, I never said much. I didn't want to blame him or excuse it.
I have only recently started talking about my hurts mostly current but have mentioned this was always the issue - his anger and hostility. This is because he complained we never get into the big issues~but I never said this was the "reason" for my affair. It took me many months of C of the C concvincing me it was ok to stand up for myself that his anger hurts me.
But I've kept my mouth shut for the entire year! When he says I abandoned him he means even earlier on - I think - unless this is all denial and really about the fling he just can't say it. I don't know.
Yes, I have been working the past year that love is growing in maturity and not running away.
And H is not.
So what am I committing to?
How will he "process the betrayal" like you say he must- in place of this constant vengance and avoidance...is there anything I can do to move this along?
I'll try to continue to not focus on myself and my hurts. That is good advice. However, if he's not expressing his, how do I listen and validate? It seems the nly way to get through this? HE feels completely justified, as you said.
My guess is your MC isn't trained in how to heal this sort of damage.
1. Your H may bring up other problems with the marriage, but what he's DOING is rationalizing his AVOIDING the fresh wound of the affair you had... He's not dealing with the other things constructively, he's just grasping for excuses to ESCAPE the pain... MC is PAIN.. It means taking the bandages off, poking at the wound, exposing it to the air and the light ... Its a LOT more comforting to cover it up and HIDE the would and never look at it... That's what he's doing..
Ignore the "we weren't meant to be together"... "it won't work", and "im done".. it's classic wayward script..he's trying to talk HIMSELF into detachment, he's not even talking to you, he's just yammering to his own subconscious and possibly some guilt... He knows' he's trashing a marriage right now... I suspect your improved behaviour has caught him off guard and is tugging at him...
I am a bit confused.. you are both seeing the same therapist but the only subject is parenting?
How much research and experience has this therapist had in healing infidelity?
If you like psychology and do graduate level work you would benefit from
Sue Johnson's Hold me Tight. The whole book is dedicated to discussing how to heal emotional wounds ... she addresses them like a surgeon... Brilliant stuff... not the best writer, but its well worth a read...
If your H criticizes trivial stuff when he shows up in your home he is likley just showing the hurt is still there from you cheating.
1. His criticism is just his own hurt lashing out at you - he hasn't processed 2. He gets reminded of his hurt when he's close to you... Which means he likely has some warmer feelings for you still too... And he fights them off with the outbursts... I think he's likley wrestling with a LOT of emotions he is NOT equipped to handle right now... and he has an idiot brother and a OW who aren't helping him either...
Don't take his complaints or his negativity to heart, its classic stuff we all hear... My wife had an affair off and on for over two years... I heard "I am done" and "I'm leaving" and "I hate you" etc more times than I can count...
OM's gone now for six months and counting... I get only warmth from her now.. she's past he withdrawal I think too... You just have to focus on the positive stuff and keep that fueling you until you get over the hill and things are easier.
You need to get some scripted answers for him when he next shows up.
Pursuit isn't a good idea no But you just acting as if you are OK with him cheating on you and pushing for divorce isn't helping your case.
I think you need a good script saying that you want to be the best mother you can, and that means doing everything you can to recommit to your son's husband...
And you go to FT on your own... a GOOD one. NOT one that tells you to move on... lose that clown.
YOU decide when you are moving on.. NOT the FT... good grief.
I think you setting an example of a committed parent and spouse will help, he needs to know you want to reconcile WITHOUT you pressuring him to do the same... lead by example rather than by lecture...
He does need to know you are willing to explore reconcilliation... And that he's hurting his son right now... that should be in the script...
ok... Hold me Tight is likley a good text for you to read...
It does get a bit clinical, but I suspect you will like that.
If you compare your H in three time blocks
a. Pre-affair b. Affair c. His leaving and his affair
Has his anger changed in any way in these three time blocks? Was he always cold and critical like you describe him now?
I am trying to determine if he just has trouble managing his frustration with life's challenge sin general, or if this a mask to his hurt from the affair.
If he was warm until you cheated, I would suspect its just a mask to hide the pain.
Just talking about the affair isn't enough, it needs to be handled well... Hold me Tight again covers a lot of this... no point in typing out the book here...
But I suspect he needs to trust you again, and he needs to get past the betrayal's damage. If he keeps partying his pain is just going to fester and get worse until he wraps his car around a pole or something...
I am thinking a short speech like this :
I know I hurt you... And I can't apologize enough for that... It's an unimaginable pain. But you are doing this to me now and you aren't showing an ounce of remorse. We have a son and a marriage, and that's more important than how we have hurt each other. I just want us both to put the knives away and give us both some time to explore our marriage for our son and for ourselves. I don't want to fight you... I want to say I am sorry, and asking you to work with me is the best way I can do that... You are worth it...
Like I said, my H will not go to another MC. I need to figure it out with the one I have, before H quits altogehter. I would love to lose him...
HIs answer to my questions regarding experience is - over twenty five years working with couples, he has worked with a lot of infidelity and he knows it can be worked through. He just tells me my H isn't "doing the work".
I personally love "hold me tight" and gave it to my H to read. I doubt he has. His response was "I don't want you to get your hopes up." Because it had! I knew if we could do this work, we could do this. But he's not ready I guess.
We see the MC - who was my IC (but I since have a new IC), and like I said, our C goals were not clear...H promised to work on the M, agreed to look at our M problems, to give it a try...then he gets angry and defensive any time those are brought up.
And yes, he has always had a hostile, angry, even verbally abusive side. My problem is that I have let it throw me into anxiety and I have fought back. And this is what he looks at when he says "we never had a good R to begin with" the fighting I did. NOt his part. Yes I fought loud and hard back. I'm no saint. And his anger got worse after the affair. THe past few months, since MC it's gotten less - I don't know if he's happy that he told me he's gone and feels relieved and his mind is made up so he doesn't care anymore, or if it means he's warming up to me again. I thought he was warming up for a while then the big "I am not coming back and I"ve had a gf all this time" speech. Right around the anniversary of when we split up last year. So again, it reeked of revenge for me.
I was walking on eggshells for a long time, and I felt like I lived in an emotional war zone for a long time, but I also had not done the work on me in terms of boundaries, self soothing, walking away, time outs, taking care of me, etc etc etc all the stuff I'm working on now that it's (presumably) too late. Hard to not believe him when he says that. But I still in my heart love him and am not going to leave and am working on myself.
I love the above paragraph you posted. I have said very similar things. It's funny you mention putting the knives away because just recently H used the same analogy. but his answer is always the same "If two people have knives out when they are together, it's best for them not to be together. We just have bad chemistry, bad things just happen when we're together. It's like a volcano that can erupt at any time - best to just stay away from the volcano".
WHat I have not confronted him on is the fact that he's seeing someone else. I have basically said I do not want to talk about her because she is irrelevant to me.
Re the last point... That's the one that hit me... You can talk about OW if he's willing... THAT is an opening.
And it is HUGE mistake to tell him she's irrelevant, in my opinion.
There are many experts in infidelity who argue until the third party/interloper is removed from the marriage repair is not possible... the OP needs removed before any significant progress can be made...
So, if your H presses you to talk about OW, I would lead with
We aren't going to make any progress on our marriage or with parenting our son while there is a third party trying to break us up... If you have any respect for marriage or our son you need to acknowledge the damage she's doing on a daily basis and send her away...
Or something like that to shake him up.. it has to be short and forceful... not pleading or critical
You are writing a lot about the negative stuff he's throwing around... DR makes it quite clear you need to ignore it, its just his hopelessness misexpressed... try to avoid taking it to heart... Its just chemicals in the brain out of balance ... it has nothing to do with you.
He's ill and he's not managing it constructively...
Last night he said he did want to talk about OW - but I don't see how I can shake him up. I'm sure he is ready to convince me how different she is, how much better, calmer, etc...and he is very stubborn and almost bullyish - if I say she must stay away, he'll laugh in my face and press on with her even more...
Not to mention, he has not said he wants progress in our marriage.
Yup, I am thinking he needs to hear it from an objective third party... interlopers in marriages are lethal... you learned that the hard way...
He's not going to hear it from you.. He's still blaming you for hurting him... he needs to realize you were vulnerable and OM took advantage of you... but he is too hurt to assign blame fairly here...
He needs an objective third party, he wont' accept education from you no matter how good a quality it is...
