My w and I have been in counseling for over 4 months now, with very little progress to save our marriage. She's not yet committed to working on the marriage, but we have much friendlier relations though still separated.
Our counselor asked us to start going on weekly one-hour coffee dates, which we've done for a month now and those are all very positive and pleasant.
But w refuses to spend any additional time together, even at the counselor's suggestion. W is just doing the minimal required work and I don't feel like it has been enough to save our marriage and it is just headed for divorce instead, albeit a friendlier one.
She's agreed to counseling until August and after that if she doesn't think we've made progress she will continue her divorce (filed last year in June).
Is an LRT called for in this case? How would I do it while still counseling and doing things like the coffee dates?
Hi, anyone out there? I really need help on this and am quite puzzled and have not found anything about it in the DR or DB books. I'm sure someone out there has experienced it. Thanks!
I've got several thoughts for you. The fact that you are in counseling is progress. Four months is really not all that long, though it seems like an eternity, especially when you are the one who is more interested in saving the M.
You've been going on one on one weekly coffee dates...that's progress also.
Now, I don't know what you should do from here, but I know how I would try to proceed from here if it were me. I think it's perfectly OK for you to start asking her some questions. You need to find out what she's thinking and feeling...in a gentle sort of way.
Do you have clarity about what SHE thinks is progress? Do you know why she has an August "deadline" in her mind? What does she think of the counseling the two of you are getting?
I'm asking you about these things because part of the WAW line of thinking (if you have a WAW, and it sounds like you do) is that they have ALREADY put years of effort into the relationship and now it's YOUR turn to put the effort in.
Even just before my W and I started counseling together, I "tested the waters" so to speak. You asked if you should be doing the LRT? I don't think you should. You should be seeing now what works and what doesn't. Have you bought her a small gift for one of your coffee dates? What was her reaction?
I'll give you a great example from my situation. I am now giving my W small gifts once in a while. However, she is not ready to start doing stuff together yet. She seems to want to see some action steps from me before she's ready to totally commit herself again.
Be patient....but don't be afraid to ask her how she's feeling about stuff right now. There are some guys on this board that would jump through hoops to be having coffee with their W once a week.
Do you have clarity about what SHE thinks is progress? Do you know why she has an August "deadline" in her mind? What does she think of the counseling the two of you are getting?
The problem with clarity is that she has listed some conditions for "progress" but is not allowing me to work on them because they require more contact time. She's listed these things:
1. Be present. 2. Listen more/talk less. 3. Stop being so controlling. 4. Have a shared reality (she told me that she thought her version of events was the "truth" and mine not).
Should I ask her how to make these specific and measurable?
I think the August deadline was to take things to the point of just before her job starts in the fall.
She likes the counseling, but part of the reason she likes it is because she's not having to put much into it other than showing up. It is not hindering her divorce plans, in other words.
I give her thoughtful gifts fairly often. Flowers I pick, make her a hot lunch after exchange of our child, buy her groceries (only what I ask that she needs) once a week. She likes those small thoughtful things and has told me so. But no love in her eyes. We also talk once a week for about 1/2 hour while our son has been sleeping, but that is highly dependent on whether she is upset with me about something we've covered in counseling or not. Mostly it's on for the talks, but last week it was off because she was upset about a MC the previous week.
We never do R talk during the coffee "dates" and talks in the car while our son is sleeping.
The coffee dates were ordered by the MC. She was reluctant to agree, but has done them. The problem I'm having is that I'm feeling she is doing the minimum required work only. It sounds like you're saying that's standard for a WAW.
OK, here's my thoughts for you. You and I have a couple of similarities in our situations, but we also have a couple of differences.
You are saying that "progress" needs more contact time to allow you to work on things. I'll respectfully and slightly disagree with you on that. You have good contact time now to begin to accomplish what you need to. However, here's a couple of things I picked up from your responses. What happened in MC that upset her? I've got a feeling that this may relate to #4 above. Your "versions" of the truth do not match on some things.
Perhaps your counselor is not the best, I don't know. I think it's OK leave a counseling session "emotional", but if she was "upset", then she probably disagreed with something in counseling. YOU need to address that with her. One thing about "versions" of the truth when it comes to human emotions is that BOTH of you are correct. Each of you "feels" a certain way or views things a certain way.
For example, when your W says "this is how such and such happened"....in her mind, and the way SHE feels about it, she's correct.
If you said something opposite about such and such situation, you are correct because it's how YOU viewed the situation and how YOU felt about it. My recommendation to you is to experiment a little and put yourself in your W's shoes in regard to this "shared" reality. Reading between the lines here, she doesn't so much want a "shared" reality, she wants you to see and acknowledge HER reality. This may be something you can't do, I don't know, but it's what I think she may be feeling. But, it must be genuine on your part. That's why I say it may be something you can't do, or can't do yet.
I wouldn't worry about the being "present" part. You are doing all you can there right now with the counseling sessions and the once a week coffee date. My gut feeling (perhaps it's indigestion) is that by being "present", she means listening to HER during the times you are together. She doesn't necessarily mean MORE time together right now.
You have two ears and one mouth, so talk little and listen a lottle.
Wanting more time together can fall under the control thing. Use the time you do have together wisely. Listen, listen, and listen some more.
Who's idea was the counselor, yours or hers? Mutual? A couple of more quick thoughts for you. The control thing is fairly common with a WAW. She does not feel "controlled" if you are not around. So, you've got to be "present" and "uncontrolling" during your time together. Listen, acknowledge, affirm. Even if you disagree with her on something, you can acknowledge that you understand how she feels that way....and then spend some time by yourself thinking about why she would feel that way.
Set the August time frame out of your mind for a while. That's pressure on you that will make you try too hard. Put your focus on how she's feeling and how she got there. Sometimes how she's feeling will tick you off, but take care of your emotions on your own. She doesn't really care about how you feel right now. She needs to know you are much more concerned about how she feels.
what do you consider LRT, last resort technique, to entail?
I know only from what I read in the DR book. LRT = Stop pursuit and get a life. Pursuit =
* Frequent phone calls - haven't called w in weeks * Begging your spouse to reconsider - haven't ever done this. * Pointing out all the good in your marriage - did this twice in counseling for about a 20 seconds. * Writing letters - stopped this since counseling. * Following your mate around the house - not in same house. * Encouraging talk about the future - never except for when we are talking about potential future jobs and moving. * Soliciting help from family members - would not even consider this. * Asking for reassurances - never * Buying gifts/flowers - guilty. Weekly groceries. Hot lunch a couple of times a week--appreciated by w cuz she doesn't have time to eat. * Trying to schedule dates together - tried this a few months ago, but gave up and MC required our dates * Spying on your spouse - never. Nothing to spy about. W is a homebody mom.
Get a life: I've got a new set of my own friends, my own activities, am back to my high-school weight and weight-lifting strength (I was in good shape before, but am even better now). Take salsa lessons go on outing with local clubs, hikes with friends. Meeting lots of new people each week.
The hard part I'm having is that I feel counseling is just not working well, but some things, minor things, seem to going well. Like today, w and I had a nice hour-long picnic lunch on her lawn while our son slept. We seem to be getting along as "friends" quite well, but definitely not marriage material yet.
You are saying that "progress" needs more contact time to allow you to work on things. I'll respectfully and slightly disagree with you on that. You have good contact time now to begin to accomplish what you need to. However, here's a couple of things I picked up from your responses. What happened in MC that upset her? I've got a feeling that this may relate to #4 above. Your "versions" of the truth do not match on some things.
Your calibration is much appreciated. That's exactly the sort of advice I was hoping to hear. I just don't have any yardsticks to see what's reasonable/normal right now.
We had a rough MC session because it involved an issue of my w taking our son out of state for six days to visit one of her relatives (with her mom). W did not like that I expressed a wish that I could go too and that if I couldn't perhaps I could have more time with our son before and after. W didn't like the way in which this came across, maybe to her somewhat like blackmail: let me have time with our son or I won't agree to letting him going out of state, but it was not meant that way. A sensitive topic, that's all it really was.
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One thing about "versions" of the truth when it comes to human emotions is that BOTH of you are correct. Each of you "feels" a certain way or views things a certain way.
For example, when your W says "this is how such and such happened"....in her mind, and the way SHE feels about it, she's correct.
If you said something opposite about such and such situation, you are correct because it's how YOU viewed the situation and how YOU felt about it. My recommendation to you is to experiment a little and put yourself in your W's shoes in regard to this "shared" reality. Reading between the lines here, she doesn't so much want a "shared" reality, she wants you to see and acknowledge HER reality. This may be something you can't do, I don't know, but it's what I think she may be feeling. But, it must be genuine on your part. That's why I say it may be something you can't do, or can't do yet.
This is so right Glim! I really appreciate this insight from you. What she really wants is my understanding of her reality, not to dispute versions, which leads to nothing. I understand feelings are feelings and she's entitled to them, but didn't think she meant that about "shared" reality. What you say is exactly right and so very helpful to me.
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I wouldn't worry about the being "present" part. You are doing all you can there right now with the counseling sessions and the once a week coffee date. My gut feeling (perhaps it's indigestion) is that by being "present", she means listening to HER during the times you are together. She doesn't necessarily mean MORE time together right now.
You are probably about this too. And that she wanted, in the past, more attention to herself, which she should deserve as my w.
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Wanting more time together can fall under the control thing. Use the time you do have together wisely. Listen, listen, and listen some more.
This also gives me a huge sense of relief. I was wanting more and more time together but maybe it's OK for now. I never asked w explicitly for this, but felt continually disappointed with what we had. Thanks for smacking me into reality: be happy with the time I have.
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Who's idea was the counselor, yours or hers? Mutual? A couple of more quick thoughts for you. The control thing is fairly common with a WAW. She does not feel "controlled" if you are not around. So, you've got to be "present" and "uncontrolling" during your time together. Listen, acknowledge, affirm. Even if you disagree with her on something, you can acknowledge that you understand how she feels that way....and then spend some time by yourself thinking about why she would feel that way.
Another great insight that will help me in my situation.
We both chose the counselor. I tried to find a "marriage-friendly" solution-oriented one and w liked this one. I hear you about all the opps to appear "present" and "uncontrolling." I should make the best of what I have to continue to do and do even more that you say: listen, acknowledge, and affirm.
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Set the August time frame out of your mind for a while. That's pressure on you that will make you try too hard. Put your focus on how she's feeling and how she got there. Sometimes how she's feeling will tick you off, but take care of your emotions on your own. She doesn't really care about how you feel right now. She needs to know you are much more concerned about how she feels.
You sure know me. I've been having a feeling of impending doom and maybe that's making me try too hard right now. And you're so right about her not caring how I feel right now other than she knows I care for her and am concerned about her feelings.
You've given me some great advice glim and I much appreciate it. I think that's one of the great values of this forum: that surely others have been there before and learned the hard way. That compiled knowledge is quite a resource as most of us here can't afford to make too many mistakes where we're at. Much appreciated, glim.
A book that I found VERY helpful is called The Walk Out Woman. It is written from a Christian perspective, so if that's not your belief, then just know that it's from that perspective.
I found The Walk Out Woman just as good as DR, perhaps even better in regard to a WAW since the book is focused on the WAW.
Also, Hope for the Separated was good. It is by Gary Chapman, I think. Again, Christian perspective.
