Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Need some advice with WAH

Well Allen, you sure can talk someone down, that's for sure!

I've read quite a bit on the WS forum at survivinginfidelity and it's sure given me a lot of insight into why he's done this and why he's so sure I never showed him any love, etc. Of course I can come up with a myriad of different ways I did just that, but I think he has trouble accepting love sometimes (has a terrible time accepting gifts or even favors, I've come to expect that he might get upset, but then says I don't do enough of those things) and he needs a great deal of external validation because he has no self-esteem. So that makes it easier to accept and I'm trying to focus on that now. Don't worry, I am more than clear about my faults in the marriage, and when this began I took 85% responsibility for the whole thing. Took me almost 6 months but I'm almost down to 50/50.

He called this morning and wanted to bring over some of my son's video games that they took over the weekend. He also had a funny story about S to tell me but I was on my way to work so only had a minute, but then he called since he knew I'd be in the car to talk more about it. I don't know how much to talk to him, I've been trying to avoid him since this latest revelation happened because I do feel uncomfortable acting like pals with the man I'm married to who's sleeping with another woman. It's hard to keep some distance though, but I feel like if I don't he'll think I'm okay with all this.

This is exactly why confrontation and exposure has to be handled so carefully.

The confrontation should be solid and reveal consequences.. not as a threat, just as a wake-up to where he's going if he keeps on the same course

What i can gather so far is that you confronted him, but he just sorta walked away from it and nothing got resolved right?

Infidelity confrontation should be handled very much like an intervention for any other addiction... tough love from square one

You need to get a good confrontation script together and an exposure script. You do the first one to read to him and the second to read to your exposure base.

You need a support team you can trust to apply some pressure on him to end his affair too, and whom you can talk to.

Is it safe to assume the OW isn't married? You don't have these details in your sig...

It's a bit tougher when the OP isn't married, but you have a strong history, chidlren, a spouse afraid of exposure, possible guilt overwhelming him... lots of good pressures to drive him home again if you want...

Well, I've blown all those cards.

There have been 3 D-Days, the EA one back in November, after which he stayed to work it out and said he'd gone no contact. Turned out terribly, he dragged me to MC and couldn't decide whether to try or not.

The second D-Day is the one that led to him moving out, he took almost everything he owned and it was with the full intent to divorce. I found an e-mail from OW's husband in my H's email trash that said H and OW had had a couple of weekends together. I told pretty much everyone (would have handled it better without the preceding weeks of hell, as I call them). I don't tend to fall apart but I kind of had a break with reality. I told his mother right away (while sobbing, whoops) because I didn't want him to be able to cover it up too much but of course he vilified me up one way and down the other and his parents believe he crossed a line but never touched her.

His mother still calls me her daughter-in-law, we've always been close and that is the hardest part. So I think she and I'm sure my FIL wants it to work out. They don't know the PA has now been confirmed. H told me he told them he was meeting a friend for coffee when he went to meet OW at the hotel (needed them to watch our son for an hour). Then he told me they did have coffee! Must have been a busy hour.

I've really not left him any place to go, I don't think, and I wish I would have handled it better.. We do have a couple we're friends with and their kids are my son's best friends, and they are talking to him, but totally opposed to his behavior. He knows this but they do have to see him because of the kids.

H has told me that when he said there was too much damage, he meant he had to repair himself. Giving up OW seems like the first step, but I guess it's not that obvious. At the time he clearly meant I'd done too much damage to him, I think, so he's rewriting history in my favor at least.

I don't ask much about OW, only when something big comes up. She's been married for 10 years and is staying with her H in an in-house separation, from what I can gather, for 18 months. He goes back and forth about telling her to get out now, but they have two small kids who wouldn't see him otherwise. So I did tell him, and he didn't want to believe it despite catching her lying several times. He finally claimed there is no way they could have seen each other on the dates I mentioned, and H has confirmed that they did, so I think she told them H wants to get back with me to calm him down. H didn't really get mad at me for this, but he knows I didn't do it for me.

Overwhelming guilt may be right on. My mom owns a store and the other day our son wanted to stop in. H wouldn't have done it but my mom was out of town and as it happens, H's best friend's mother works there and she said he didn't speak to her and looked panicked the whole time. That is why I shouldn't have exposed so much but it was impossible to hide from her, she was with my mom when I called her after I found the email and my mom said a few choice words that left no doubt as to what was happening. It was either cheating or he'd beaten me, and let's face it, he looks better cheating than that.

As for consequences, I don't have much left. We're essentially living as a divorced couple, I've even moved. He clearly still feels a lot for me but is having an early, mild MLC too. He complained I'm too independent and OW "needs" him, I'm sure, to make it through her marriage crisis and deal with her "Jerry Springer-esque" H. So that will drag on forever. I'm trying to find situations in which to let him help, but with so much distance it's hard. I have found a couple though.

Thanks again, I'm not sure if there's that much to work with here though. He knows I am totally opposed to his PA, and as far as he knows I want a divorce due to that.

When I confronted him a few days ago (I didn't answer his phone calls for the first day) I told him I wanted to start working on the D. He told me in a second phone call he didn't want to rush into anything. I told him that some day a man would be very happy he'd done this to me (read that somewhere, very good point) and he told me maybe he'd be that man someday. I took that to mean he'd be happy without me but then I realized he meant maybe someday we'd be together due to all the changes through this. I kind of went off on him, saying he'd be happy he cheated on me, and he was pretty confused about why that made me so angry, that's how I know he meant the opposite.

Both of those things kind of slipped out and I haven't acknowledged that he said them. He doesn't divulge things easily but I figure that if he meant them, he'll show me. The day I got back from the trip where I found out about the PA he finally took care of a big project for me (a bunch of files from his computer that he said he'd give me) that he's been putting off for months, and he's jumped on a couple other things. We've gotten along well after I got over the initial anger stage, but he's gone above and beyond since this latest D-Day.

OK

1. If you want to explore reconcilliation you need to start sending him a consistent message

a. Your infidelity is hurting me, hurting you, and hurting your entire family - everyone feels awkward and hurt now and it won't get any easier for anyone unless you stop
b. Your infidelity is attacking another home with CHILDREN in it... THAT household's marriage - good or bad is NONE of your BUSINESS... if THEY end up divorcing that is THEIR choice and he needs to get away from that and let them sort things out if they can
c. Your infidelity is hampering any chance of us repairing this marriage and providing a safe and quality home for our son.
d. Pursuing this infidelity further will do a LOT MORE DAMAGE than has already been done
e. You want to save your marriage
f. You are hurt, but you are willing to attend a session with a GOOD FAMILY-ORIENTED therapist... NOT a shrink! A real couples counsellor who worked and is familiar with infidelity as an addiction. If he's willing to do that much for his family you are as well.

2. You need to find yourself a good couples counsellor for both of you to start seeing

3. The FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS the FT will attend to his your H making a commitment to NO CONtACT and FULL TRANSPARENCY with you at all times.

Right now you are sending your H mixed messages. You called everyone about the affair, you haven't filed for divorce, but you also leave him assuming you want to divorce... he's going to be very confused as to what you WANT right now.. and that needs to be attacked as soon as possible. He needs to know what you want, and what you expect from him bare minimum right now.

Ignore his script talk.. its nothing to get indimidated at... he's going to blame you, him, life, everything EXCEPT his infidelity...

Don't try to compete with OW, she's beneath you... dont' dignify her or this affair trying to compete like a teenager. Just confront him to stop with the points above or tell him things are going to get a lot worse for him and his son (divorce means he divorces his son too, not just you.. many wayward spouses think they can carry out a divorce and their child will be completely isolated from that... he's deluded.. there are facts all over the web to challenge him.

You COULD hold off on the confrontation and let the FT do it but then there is a delay. You are likley best to do it yourself... with his parents there or otherwise.

4. Get some physical proof of a PA - an email or something.. hotel bill etc... to show his parents so they fully believe you... and when your Husband lies to them again after they have seen the hotel bill or email.. THEN you should get 100% support from them... people don't like being lied to... never met anyone yet that enjoyed that at all. If you can prove to them he's lying to them and have them actually WATCH him LIE to them then it will hit them hard enough.

OK, well the projects are just expressed guilt.. nothing new there.

He's gonig to talk up a storm... I don't pay that much mind.. its what he's doing that concerns me.

You push for divorce, and he doens't want to rush.. what do I hear?

I don't want to rush into divorce = I want to take my time enjoying this woman before I decide to come back or not.

Do NOT tolerate that.

This is your mantra :

I REFUSE to be your SAFETY NET while YOU go COMPARISON SHOPPING on my marriage.

He wants to play the two party game and drag this out :

Don't let him.

Confront him with a good confrontation script asap and get him into a professoinal Couples Therapist who handles infidelity well (as an addiction and NO contact is a must before any other work starts)

If you let him play the slow motion game you are just going to get ILL while he has fun at your expense.. don't allow it.

Just tell him out right...

"Don't rush into divorce? Ya right.. you want to have as much fun as you can while I feel like a used piece of crap for as long as YOU FEEL LIKE? I don't think so."

"I HATE what you are doing to our SON. I HATE what you are doing to our MARRIAGE - But I love our son enough to give you a chance here - END this NOW - or things are going to get very unpleasant for all THREE of us in this family.... I am willing to see a family therapist with you, but this is NOT a four-person family... you talk to a professional about your marriage problems NOT to that woman... she is NOT helping you.. she's attacking YOUR SON's family."

Hit him with something like that... the longer he drags this out the worse you are going to feel emotionally and physically.. its early yet so you don't have the anxiety, back pain, insomnia, depression, etc.. it will kick in after the six month point most likely.

Oh, that's a lot of tough advice! It makes sense overall, but my main problem is I have no idea whether or not he wants to reconcile. He may think he doesn't have a chance any more with me, I don't know.

He will say that OW's marriage is hopeless and she shouldn't sort it out with her H. And of course NC will mean she's on her own with it all, despite her hundreds of Facebook friends.

I'm also concerned about not pulling away anymore. Ever since I've been happy on my own, he's been coming back some. That may be because I've not been so angry and pretty much the girl he fell in love with, but I wonder if it's too soon to totally come around. He does miss our son although he usually has him Saturday and Sunday, and has asked to go into his room a couple times because he misses it. That one kind of breaks my heart.

My last problem is his parents, I haven't spoken to his mother since the day I called her although she did get me a birthday gift in February, and his dad did offer to help me move. And they went into my mom's store to drop off the birthday gift. I did tell H I wouldn't rat him out again, and he did trust me enough to say what he told them about the friend for coffee business.

Their family does seem to tolerate infidelity more than mine does, although his dad is pretty embarrassed about his son's behavior from what I can tell. I do have the voicemail H left me after my sister caught him, it's not terribly incriminating but it does mention our son was only over there for an hour, etc. And I think they'd say we're separated with the intent to divorce so it's not really cheating. Even I have more of a problem that he's sleeping with another man's wife behind his back than that he's cheating on me, since we're separated.

As for the OW, she sure is beneath me and I hate to sound so snobby saying so. She is kind of trashy and one of my problems in potentially getting back with H is that he's been with her. Somehow it would seem easier if he was with a higher class woman, but from what I read on here that's common enough.

I know everyone gives you these lists of excuses so here's mine!

Oh, I like the gist of this one. I have thought of telling him I'm not going to sit around auditioning to be his wife but haven't wanted to start an R talk. I just don't see any possibility that he'll leave OW hanging out to dry by abandoning in the midst of the mess she's in, which is how he'd see it. I hate to put it like that as it makes it sound so justified, but I don't think he'll pick me over her at this point.

And as far as mixed messages, I kind of thought that was a good thing as it confuses them? I'm sure he spends a fair amount of time wondering what I want, if I'm serious about D, if I'm serious about not dating, if I'll take him back, etc. I've been sending him mixed messages on purpose, to some extent. I also feeling funny saying we even have a marriage because at this point, we don't in my mind. I didn't even DB for the first month because I felt it was hopeless, he was so intent on divorcing and kept reiterating his intent. Thanks again.

You can expose to your in laws whatever way you want... if you attack it as "He's sleeping with another man's WIFE and they have YOUNG CHILDREN" and you think that would get more support then go that route.

He may come around, but affairs are terribly seductive. My worry is you will start to get ILL ... LONG BEFORE he considers ending things with her.

Your confrontation is NOT an argument. Whatever he says is irrelevant.

If you want to ADD his counter claims INTO your script

1. Their marriage is hopeless?"

Is he a marriage counsellor? He has a crystal ball does he? Of course its not going well with him mounting this man's wife behind his back... what does he expect?

2. He can't abandon her now?

You are abandoning your SON instead. EVERY MINUTE you put into HER is a minuite you could put into repairing your marriage and your son's family - you are worried about HER? What about your marriage? What about abandoning your son or your wife? Ever thought about that? If she needs marriage help, send her to a PROFESSIONAL COUNSELLOR... SEX SESSIONS in a HOTEL ROOM with YOU is NOT HELPING HER MARRIAGE.. its DESTROYING YOURS

If you want to toss that in that's fine... Affair couples success rates are less than 1% long term.. he's a fool if he thinks he's saving her... he's just ruining those chidlren's famliy is what he's doing... THEY will grow up to HATE him for what he's doing.

You can try slow pitch with this man, but he's giving you classic addiction script and you will not be able to keep up that smile forever I promise you... it will get more painful the longer he cheats on you and attacks that other family.... you WILL lose respect for him and so will your son when he gets older...

I don't have the access you to do assess as well.. all I can do is read these posts and give you some of my thoughts from what I read here and elsewhere.

I know I will not be able to keep it up which is why I have been seeing D as pretty much the only option. He's found someone to rescue, which makes him feel really good about himself, and no matter what I am not going to turn myself into a woman like that.

I am going to use a lot of what you've said, but sadly, I think that at the end of the day, there's no way he'll go NC with her. I think if I started dating or filed for D it would jolt him into saying he wants to reconcile, but the NC wouldn't fly. Or he'd agree to it and then hide it like he did last time. They're "just friends" first, you know, but there's no way I'm going to put time into reconciling with a man who's "just friends" with a woman he's been having sex with! And the first thing she'd do is have some huge crisis that she couldn't get through without him.